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Post by Helsbells on Jan 10, 2020 0:22:07 GMT
No Fas are good at playing normal loving and real you in. So please dont go there I had an AP worm his way into my life and cause a lot of damage. This goes both ways for all insecure types. All insecure types often use relationships in one way or another and in some form as a way to seek or avoid healing for old wounds and this is not at all what a relationship is for. Nor should it be thrust upon the other person. Yeah I get that. |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 10, 2020 0:22:35 GMT
I get that and I personally find it better to walk than to try SO hard to figure out someone’s behavior where you start to play therapist and fix them. I mean even in a diagnosis. I know that’s not necessarily the intent but that’s what happens when it plays out. I say this having various thoughts here and there about the same thing in telling the FA that brought me here. But from what I know of him, I honestly think he’d love to have that information. Not as a tool to work on his issues. But as a tool to excuse his persistent patterns of dysfunctional behavior. He had a therapist once tell him he has a fear of abandonment and I can’t tell you how many times I heard him talk about it. Was that a good thing? Not really if it didn’t inspire him to use that understanding to work on the dysfunctional patterns. That’s my particular situation. But I think it’s good to be aware of that little known possibility as well. That’s the beginning, though. How often do we see that on this board? For me, I’ve said it more than once... Attachment theory has changed my life. If someone wants to know more, they’ll ask. If not, that’s their business, not mine. A saying... “The worst vice is advice”. If I feel manipulated to do what you want, chances are I’ll walk away. This rings true to me as a former partner. So when I brought up that whole month where I couldn't see her, questioning why that needed to be the case, after dating for 3 months (and already being mindful of her "Excuses" of the kids and busy etc, whilst she texted me 20 times a day), it was literally the next week she called it off, but "wanted to catch up again in future". Intermittent reinforcement, which is what she wanted is really unacceptable in a relationship, clearly as a secure, I'm not going to accept it. (at 3 months in a normal steady escalating relationship, from once a week initially to you literally are seeing each other every day at least once by that time) I understand it, but I certainly don't accept it. And that would feel like your sovereignty is being stepped on. The crux of all of this is, unless an F-A heals, truly looks into the trauma behind it all, and becomes an earnt secure attachment, for anyone really, it's futile to have a relationship of substance other than friends. Seeing someone once a fortnight/once a month is not emotional intimacy in a relationship by any stretch. It makes sense why she mourned her previous relationship for so long 15 months or so after, she had the perfect setup there, the guy lived 1.5 hours away, she could see him once a month (or less) and just do her thing in the fantasy bond/codependent relationship. Mrob as a side question, what work have you done, and where are you at now, and can you see people in an intimate relationship like at least once a week, or need more space? |
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Post by alexandra on Jan 10, 2020 0:23:48 GMT
Wierd thing is my Fa is close to his parents, loves them very much. Revealed slight enmeshment how he loves his mum more than any women, and his father was strict. But is extremely close to them now and calls them twice a week, where I thought I had more off a normal back ground and never have a desire to talk to my parents. This isn't uncommon, because there is often enmeshment with FA parents that lead to some of these issues. It looks like closeness, and isn't consciously dealt with by the (adult) child, but it doesn't mean it's healthy. Most of my FA exes and friends are close to one or both parents, but when I got close enough to observe there was a lot of push-pull, control, poor communication, and balancing some distance. I've also observed some being really close to one parent (usually the mother) while having a distant/strict other parent. And if you think about it, a parent who is distant/strict with their kid is likely the same way with their romantic partner... meaning for the romantic partner (spouse) to keep the marriage and family together with someone who likely isn't meeting their emotional needs either, they're probably often swinging anxious (which can lead to more enmeshment or treating the child as a substitute spouse). So, you don't always know just from the surface. Insecure attachment originated from somewhere. That enmeshment you observed is probably a much bigger issue than you realize. |
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Post by Helsbells on Jan 10, 2020 0:36:00 GMT
Wierd thing is my Fa is close to his parents, loves them very much. Revealed slight enmeshment how he loves his mum more than any women, and his father was strict. But is extremely close to them now and calls them twice a week, where I thought I had more off a normal back ground and never have a desire to talk to my parents. This isn't uncommon, because there is often enmeshment with FA parents that lead to some of these issues. It looks like closeness, and isn't consciously dealt with by the (adult) child, but it doesn't mean it's healthy. Most of my FA exes and friends are close to one or both parents, but when I got close enough to observe there was a lot of push-pull, control, poor communication, and balancing some distance. I've also observed some being really close to one parent (usually the mother) while having a distant/strict other parent. And if you think about it, a parent who is distant/strict with their kid is likely the same way with their romantic partner... meaning for the romantic partner (spouse) to keep the marriage and family together with someone who likely isn't meeting their emotional needs either, they're probably often swinging anxious (which can lead to more enmeshment or treating the child as a substitute spouse). So, you don't always know just from the surface. Insecure attachment originated from somewhere. That enmeshment you observed is probably a much bigger issue than you realize. [br I agree Alex my ex told me he could never love a woman much as he loves his mum. What is all that about. I've never heard another man besides my FA say that. |
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Post by Helsbells on Jan 10, 2020 0:38:09 GMT
This isn't uncommon, because there is often enmeshment with FA parents that lead to some of these issues. It looks like closeness, and isn't consciously dealt with by the (adult) child, but it doesn't mean it's healthy. Most of my FA exes and friends are close to one or both parents, but when I got close enough to observe there was a lot of push-pull, control, poor communication, and balancing some distance. I've also observed some being really close to one parent (usually the mother) while having a distant/strict other parent. And if you think about it, a parent who is distant/strict with their kid is likely the same way with their romantic partner... meaning for the romantic partner (spouse) to keep the marriage and family together with someone who likely isn't meeting their emotional needs either, they're probably often swinging anxious (which can lead to more enmeshment or treating the child as a substitute spouse). So, you don't always know just from the surface. Insecure attachment originated from somewhere. That enmeshment you observed is probably a much bigger issue than you realize. [br I agree Alex my ex told me he could never love a woman much as he loves his mum. What is all that about. I've never heard another man besides my FA say that. He even has his parents on his screen shot on his ipad. Yuk I find that wierd. |
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 10, 2020 0:58:45 GMT
I'm confused why you keep saying that anyone wants to play therapist, because I'm not seeing that. Any of us who want to bring up FA to FAs have no idea how to bring it up without pushing them further away, so I don't get anyone is trying to be a therapist to anyone more than be a loving partner to them, which terrifies them and leaves us bewildered. Again, there's no malintent on either part. I am not with my ex obviously, but me being here is me trying to process the relationship and everything that went on. It's valuable to me and it's healing for me to try to make sense of a situation that left me wounded. As far as your FA that you said he wasn't inspired to want to change, I mean, it's harder for some to face themselves, right? It wasn't so hard for me to want to work on myself, but I can't say I had a terribly traumatic childhood. Yes, I have had childhood traumas to overcome, but they weren't traumatic in the way that I was so shut down that I couldn't function and my childhood is completely blacked out, and for that I feel fortunate. But I do know some people's childhoods were terribly painful and traumatic, and the last thing they want to do is revisit any of it for one second. So for some who receive knowledge about attachment, it may take some time, a long time, and it may be a very, very long process before they get to the place of wanting to dig deeper. I have compassion for that. What if your FA wants to be loved a different way by not wanting you to bring up issues he has to work on on his own? Of course you have every right to walk if the situation affects you to a point where it doesn’t suit you. But no one likes to be fixed by their partner. You can argue that’s not what you’re doing and I understand the intent but that’s how it will feel, guaranteed. You cannot push someone to do what they don’t want to do nor what feels badly to them. And loving someone sometimes means walking away because a relationship involves expectations. And some can’t handle expectations from others when they’re battling internal demons. I agree, with all this, and I walked, there was no winning for me to stay, but I had to try for my own sake. That's just something I do so I don't have to look back and say, what if I had tried this, or tried that? I have peace that I exhausted all possibilities, and I can now walk away knowing I left no stone unturned. That's how how I go forward in peace. I did respect him enough to not have tried to force anything down his throat. But if he were to call me *right now* and ask me to explain why it didn't work from my perspective, I would tell him. Again, I have absolutely nothing to lose anymore, and he can take the information and do whatever he wants to with it. He can be offended, he can scoff, whatever. My priority right now is being my highest priority. So if he were to call me and ask me, then I would be honest and tell him why it didn't work for me, as there would be no reasons for me to, as we talked about on another thread, not "just be myself and be direct." But who knows how I will feel by the time I ever hear from him again. I could have easily gotten into a conversation with my ex from two years ago who contacted me, but I truly have no feelings for him, I don't care. I don't miss him, I don't want to be friends with him, and I don't care to tell him about FA though it could very well give him some valuable knowledge about himself. But, I just..don't care. |
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 10, 2020 1:20:22 GMT
So if he were to call me and ask me Key words there. Makes a big difference. It’s a difficult thing to walk. It takes a lot of courage when you love someone. I think the issue lies more in when you have enough information to know it likely won’t succeed (and you will suffer more by staying around) but you stay anyway in a fantasy that things will change. Oftentimes, our learning curve lessens with each relationship. Yes, but I could still save his feelings if I didn't want to offend him by making him think I was being his therapist, which again, I never was and I don't think anyone is trying to be, even if it feels like it. I understand your point though. I say if anyone wants to try to bring it up to their partner, then the partner can accept or reject it, but it may serve the person who brought it up and ultimately, they have to do what's best for them above all. Bringing up FA may be what they need to do for their own peace of mind. |
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Post by serenity on Jan 10, 2020 2:40:56 GMT
Key words there. Makes a big difference. It’s a difficult thing to walk. It takes a lot of courage when you love someone. I think the issue lies more in when you have enough information to know it likely won’t succeed (and you will suffer more by staying around) but you stay anyway in a fantasy that things will change. Oftentimes, our learning curve lessens with each relationship. Yes, but I could still save his feelings if I didn't want to offend him by making him think I was being his therapist, which again, I never was and I don't think anyone is trying to be, even if it feels like it. I understand your point though. I say if anyone wants to try to bring it up to their partner, then the partner can accept or reject it, but it may serve the person who brought it up and ultimately, they have to do what's best for them above all. Bringing up FA may be what they need to do for their own peace of mind. I agree. I guess the pattern we often see on this forum is an avoidant partner pulls away, and then the abandoned partner tries to explain attachment theory in a bid to bring them closer again. But it doesn't work, of course. Healing from attachment wounds takes years, even if someone is motivated. And the timing can seem judgmental and manipulative I guess. There are definitely good times to bring this stuff up. But dealing with a pull back via `psycho analysing' and offering judgment is not very effective and doesn't sooth abandoned feelings. |
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Post by faithopelove on Jan 10, 2020 3:01:15 GMT
I'd take that as something positive , since he's said Thursdays are generally good to see one another (he's offering something consistent without you asking). But he's not locking either of you in, which is reasonable. Well I wish he said that, but let me clarify - I said I was going to a happy hour at this restaurant. And he said “x restaurant is always good on Thursday nights” Which I took to mean, yes that sounds fun. Cause that style is just often his indirect way of saying yes. We have a weird texting lingo at times, so indirect, but I think it’s his style and I just can match it... usually works but sometimes triggers me and i guess him. Although we did have a plans mix up last year because he didn’t speak up and say no I can’t go til the day before in person. - I’d definitely ask him to clarify that! It sounds like he’s been purposely vague, but it’s only fair to you to verify what he means. I would’ve directly asked if he wanted to join you Thursday night...then you’d get a yes, no or even another non-committal maybe, but it’s still clarifying. |
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Post by mrob on Jan 10, 2020 8:44:41 GMT
@dualcitizen I was in and out of therapy after each escalation, and ultimately after my affair/separation and not a word was breathed about attachment. Not a word. I talked and talked and talked but nothing happened, and I got no insight. It took a divorce and to really act this FA stuff out in the extreme with someone. Cycle after cycle, go away, come back, elation, depression, and ultimately loss to get me here.
What have I done since? I went to a professional and they glazed over, so I live my life through here. You people see everything. You people call me out. At the moment I’m sort of seeing someone emotionally unavailable but that changes from week to week, but I am consistent. There’s some learning nuggets in that. I’m able to see my behaviour in someone else and actually experience what others have with me. I’m able to enjoy being with that person and her good points, but see her limitations as well. I’ve seen her twice this week, and may possibly tonight. If not, I have plenty to do. She’s not about to change, but I think I am, slowly. I’m able to be upfront and not dance around stuff for the first time. It’s interesting. I still have no desire to cohabitate though!
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 10, 2020 8:58:59 GMT
@dualcitizen I was in and out of therapy after each escalation, and ultimately after my affair/separation and not a word was breathed about attachment. Not a word. I talked and talked and talked but nothing happened, and I got no insight. It took a divorce and to really act this FA stuff out in the extreme with someone. Cycle after cycle, go away, come back, elation, depression, and ultimately loss to get me here. What have I done since? I went to a professional and they glazed over, so I live my life through here. You people see everything. You people call me out. At the moment I’m sort of seeing someone emotionally unavailable but that changes from week to week, but I am consistent. There’s some learning nuggets in that. I’m able to see my behaviour in someone else and actually experience what others have with me. I’m able to enjoy being with that person and her good points, but see her limitations as well. I’ve seen her twice this week, and may possibly tonight. If not, I have plenty to do. She’s not about to change, but I think I am, slowly. I’m able to be upfront and not dance around stuff for the first time. It’s interesting. I still have no desire to cohabitate though! Thanks Mrob for sharing, I appreciate it. I might send you a private message with a couple queries. |
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Post by alexandra on Jan 10, 2020 18:51:40 GMT
mrob, I really don't get it. Maybe the problem is several professionals don't truly get attachment theory either? I once told someone about it because they were wildly confused by a very serious LTR ex (just in retrospect / baggage, never looking to rekindle with her, and she'd cycled and tried and he rejected), and I was like oh... do you know what FA is? He said wow, that all sounds really accurate about my ex and explains so much, I want to look more into this, I'm going to ask my sibling who is a psychologist (more on the research side than treating people side). Well, that sibling basically told him ehhh attachment theory, we don't really pay much attention to that because it's not proved out as well and may as well be Meyers-Briggs (the 16 types of personalities model which is widely considered about as professional as a horoscope). I think that really erased his confidence in it. Comparing attachment theory to Meyers-Briggs was, to me, deeply disturbing!
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Post by alexandra on Jan 10, 2020 19:24:51 GMT
@janedoe, I agree, I don't think Meyers Briggs is a horoscope, though I find it more informational rather than actionable. But attachment theory also does have a lot of research behind it. It's 40 years old. It has been kicking around since the 1950s but got structured in the 1970s. I'd think that's enough time to get more understanding and more traction, but hey, look how behind we still are on understanding women's health, and we've been able to observe that for a heck of a lot longer 🤷🏻♀️
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 10, 2020 20:44:49 GMT
I didn't want to seem like I was diagnosing him or otherwise telling him what/who he is, even though I DO know him better than he knows himself. For me it doesn’t at all feel like panic. That’s more anxiety in my experience. It feels pretty calm actually and my energy level drops. But me needing to run or get out of the situation is not out of panic but out of not having complete control over my actions (being in this third party like state) and not wanting to embarrass myself any more. I meant to comment on your description of freeze state, thank you for that. So I didn't have a freeze state reaction I guess. I don't think I have had a third person experience like that, outside of the body. My panic is definitely in the body, and I feel it, though I also can feel like I'm on auto pilot, depending on the situation. I would love to hear more experiences on the freeze state if anyone else would also like to share their experiences. It would be helpful to know what it's like and the thoughts and feelings when it happens. |
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Post by bohemianraspberry on Jan 10, 2020 21:09:14 GMT
"Basically like the person doesn't want to react via fight or flight because maybe they don't know if they're correct in their assumption — so they just freeze?" I think this talk explains it very well: youtu.be/br8-qebjIgsHe compares it to traffic lights: Green is normal state Yellow is fight or flight Red is freeze. Like animals can behave, when they are scared, but can't attack or run away, they play dead. |
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