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Post by kittygirl on Jan 30, 2020 16:38:37 GMT
Caroline this is hard. To me, 4 days is too much time without contact from a partner (particularly if he's ignoring your bids for connection-that would be unacceptable to me). You say you are very direct with him in person, so why not say to him exactly what you have told us here?
For what it's worth and since you asked, I did exactly what you are asking about in basically the same situation. My ex had reduced his communication with me to a trickle. I wasn't happy. I wasn't fulfilled. He was in the midst of a deactivation but I really wasn't interested in waiting around until he was "ready to talk" (I dont see how that would be sustainable long term so I wasn't about to set a precedent of biting my tongue in order to wait for him to come around). So I said to him "Listen I need to feel secure in a relationship and that comes with consistent connection." (and for what it's worth, literally ALL my boyfriends before him (no joke, ALL) made an effort to connect regularly-this isn't asking for something outrageous.). And he responded with "I can't meet your needs". I literally put all the cards on the table, and asked him to show me his hand-which he did. Why not just directly tell him you need more connection, which you clearly desire as is evident from your post? You say you find it "weird to not contact someone for 4 days" (which, it objectively is....if I just dropped off the face of the earth for 4 days to close friends or past boyfriends they would have quite literally assumed I'd gone missing or was hurt and would have gotten extremely worried) and this is CLEARLY making you feel insecure in the relationship "... I'm feeling like he's going to go MIA again". When I was going through similar confusion during the deactivation event with my ex, I talked to a close girlfriend who reminded me "I never worry if my husband is just going to leave. You never worried about this with exes of yours. This isn't a normal concern you should have in a relationship". And she was right. Requiring security in the relationship, to me, is the singular most basic need you can have. If he can't give you that, how can you expect to have more nuanced needs met in the future?
I feel for you a lot because I know what it's like to be in that situation and, at least in my case (not saying this is yours!!!), know that I had a stronger connection to him than he did with me. It sucks. I hope that if you in fact choose to stay together, it is because you are truly so fulfilled and happy with how things are TODAY (not in some hypothetical future where a ton of "if onlys" exist, or living in the past where things were amazing because as you know, it will never return to that point again for an FA) that you want that to continue as is, and not because you have redefined your needs in order to fit what you know are his limitations. This will breed so much resentment in you over time (and I know you know this, just need to type it out). I'm not saying this is what is happening, but I was almost starting to see myself go down that path for a moment before I caught myself to be like "what in god's name are you doing???". Voicing my needs, EVEN THOUGH it resulted in a breakup was one of the best things I have ever done for myself.
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Post by amber on Jan 30, 2020 20:28:55 GMT
Four days is not an acceptable amount of time to go with no contact with your partner. Not even a text from him?? That would induce anxiety in me no end. That’s no way to live...from what I’ve read on the boards here the deactivations only get worse? In some ways relationship do get more tricky as time goes on as you get to know a person deeper and there’s less hormones to protect you from triggers...I really beleive the sustainability of a long term r/ship requires an enormous amount of resilience, ability to be with and hold strong emotions, self regulation, awareness and a lot of internal resources. Do you think your guy is capable of this? My ex FA was good with contact but I always had this off sense that the relationship was just “an in the moment relationship”; as in I could never sense the future of it, where it was going, whether there was stability and commitment. A good friend of mine told me how anxious I was all the time when in the r/ship, calling her with my concerns and fears regularly. This is not a good place to be. A r/ship shouldn’t consume you with fears, doubt and worry on a regular basis. A r/ship is meant to be a secure base so we can go out in the world and grow and explore. There’s also stacks of evidence showing how important a r/ship is to our health, people in unhappy marriages die earlier and have higher levels of chronic health conditions... remembering this helps me because I very much value health and care for myself really well in other areas of my life. If you take the effort to eat well and exercise, gotta take the effort to surround yourself with people who support your health, not detract from it 😄
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Post by serenity on Jan 31, 2020 22:45:40 GMT
Hi Caroline,
Thanks for keeping us updated, and letting us know how you are going. I read your posts and have just been thinking about you situation for the past days <3
I guess my opinion is that so long as this relationship is what you consciously want, your best way forward is to properly accept that he's avoidant, and will cycle. Its not easy or necessarily healthy to adapt to this. But you will have to adapt if you've chosen an avoidant partner and won't leave the situation. If you start expressing `wants' along the lines of `don't be avoidant', its ignoring the fact that avoidants rarely want to change, and that the ones who do change, need years of self work to make even minor changes. You chose an avoidant partner. He will put effort in sometimes. He will withdraw at other times. And he will deactivate again, no matter what you do. He will be fully present for you in cycles only.
I feel it would be helpful also, to make yourself truly acknowledge his attachment style has nothing to do with you. He was like this before you met him, and will likely always be this way. Its not your fault, and its not something anyone can fix apart from a motivated avoidant.
Lately you've been bottling things up and avoiding discussions in hope to prevent the pain of his silence and distancing. Can you see how he distances and goes silent anyway? Therefore, don't be afraid to express yourself. You owe it to yourself to speak up, and holding it all in isn't preventing his avoidance.
My Dad and youngest sister are `Secures' both in long term marriages with avoidants. I think the relationships suck and hold them back, but its what they want and they are happy. I think what separates their character from most is they grew up with massive amounts of unconditional love from multiple relatives. Their belief that they are lovable is so ingrained, its like they are incapable of internalizing other people's bad behaviour as connected to them in any way. You know all the times your boyfriend pulls back and you worry on and on what did I do, and start attacking yourself and your flaws? My Dad and sister don't do that, its not part of their character. It would never occur to them to blame someone else's mental health issues on themselves.
People who grow up with the benefit of massive amounts of unconditional love are not like DA's, with the auto regulated false `high self esteem' of a DA. My Dad and sister are empaths who lack selfishness and ego. They have normal flaws and vulnerabilites. They just don't take things personal.
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Post by dhali on Feb 1, 2020 0:07:10 GMT
There is a lot of discussion about being in a relationship with an avoidant. If they are unaware, then I don’t think it’s possible. And awareness means actually focused on it, not using it as an excuse, or something on the periphery they don’t really give a crap about. They have to be extremely cognizant they exhibit these behaviors, and open to receiving feedback on them. Period. Same goes for you.
Outside of that, and it’s just wishful thinking, and acting from a place of fear.
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Post by amber on Feb 1, 2020 0:10:54 GMT
There is a lot of discussion about being in a relationship with an avoidant. If they are unaware, then I don’t think it’s possible. And awareness means actually focused on it, not using it as an excuse, or something on the periphery they don’t really give a crap about. They have to be extremely cognizant they exhibit these behaviors, and open to receiving feedback on them. Period. Same goes for you. Outside of that, and it’s just wishful thinking, and acting from a place of fear. I agree. And agree with what serenity said too...if you choose to be with an avoidant you have to accept their behaviours... I know being an AP I would desperately try to change them, hope,wish, pray they would change for the better. It’s a mind fuck really because they will only change if they want to. So you accept the pain of being in a r/ship with one or move on. Sometimes we have to go through massive amounts of pain over and over before we learn and decide to do something differently |
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Post by dhali on Feb 1, 2020 0:15:21 GMT
My point is that relationships that are painful are wrong relationships to be in. Accepting a bad relationship is bad for the soul. Don’t do it. How many stories do you see on here with a “reconciliation“ only to be blown up a few months later. And each and every time, it’s a shittier version of the original. Frog and the Scorpion. Every time. If the scorpion wants a ride across the pond, put it on a leaf and tow the leaf. Translation- the best you can do is friends.
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Post by serenity on Feb 4, 2020 23:04:39 GMT
Lately you've been bottling things up and avoiding discussions in hope to prevent the pain of his silence and distancing. Can you see how he distances and goes silent anyway? Therefore, don't be afraid to express yourself. You owe it to yourself to speak up, and holding it all in isn't preventing his avoidance. Thanks, serenity . Also, the past few days I allowed outside sources to really blow up my triggers... people not in the situation telling me what they thought it was, hearing all these stories of guys with other girls outside of their committed relationships, etc... and it really triggered my insecurities around those things... so that took a moment of work to come back to earth on and not overthink and focus on the tailspin. Hi Caroline, If you're generally unworried about him womanising when he's available, its likely what's happening is your mind is swinging `negative' when you are triggered by abandoned feelings. This can sometimes spiral into paranoid thoughts when you don't know its about being triggered. The best thing you can do is reflect on the positives about your relationship when your mind does this, in my experiences. Its not unlike the temporary negativity an avoidant experiences when they are triggered by engulfment. When the trigger is removed (abandonment or engulfment) one's `object consistency' - the capacity to hold onto both positivite and negative truth - returns. Notice how when he's present, contacting you most days etc, you don't have these same fears? My ex said to me once, the reason he goes silent is not to hurt me, but because he's trying not to. He was afraid of saying the wrong thing, which makes sense when you consider the negative frame of mind a trigger can induce. Similar to you not calling your bf and accusing him of cheating when you feel triggered etc. You hold it in instead, to protect the relationship from your worst self. Good job speaking up about how his behaviour makes you feel. Its important to be known and seen in an intimate relationship. In my experiences with non abusive avoidant partners, they might not be able to emotionally caretake or co-regulate easily. But if something really hurts you, they will normally take that into consideration if its within their capacity to do so. He may be unable to `stop being triggered' or `discuss it' for a time when that happens. But you may be able to keep the communication going during that time, talking about other things. It sounds like in the time you've known him, he tends to breadcrumb during the worst of his deactivations, rather than ghost and replace you, which is a positive. |
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Post by serenity on Feb 6, 2020 1:50:01 GMT
It's kind of hard when you read so much (on here and elsewhere) about avoidant partners using other women as deactivating strategies. Though I don't think he would take any action if still in a relationship, etc. I think he might possibly look to social or something for validation — but that would be at most. He does seem to have a pretty strong "moral compass." One thing I'm curious about is — do most avoidants while they're deactivating still consider themselves in the relationship? For example, in my case, where he specifically ask me and we're "official" but he's been distancing for about a week 1/2 now. We've talked, he's mostly always responded, etc, but it's hardly anything of a real relationship. I'm glad he was somewhat open about what's going on, and if we get the chance, there's still a conversation to be had about communication, needs on both ends, etc. When he has come out of his funk, I think it would be fine to just ask him, without accusing. Most couples talk about whether their relationship is exclusive or not. I know when my ex deactivated that first time, I fully believed he must have dumped me for someone. It seemed the logical explanation based on `everything on the internet'. But thinking that way hurt me so much more than his space ever did. I just asked him, when he became present again. He received the question well and was very reassuring. |
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Post by kittygirl on Jul 29, 2020 21:16:22 GMT
Oh caroline--thank you for your willingness to be so vulnerable and forthright with this forum! I imagine most people would end up leaving all together and never posting an update after something like this (particularly while in the throes of pain). So first of all THANK YOU and just think-there WILL be someone some day who goes back and reads this entire thread and finds this invaluable. So if nothing else maybe that helps just a tiny bit. I cant tell you how much I empathize with what you have described here-it's basically what i fear the most-the slow disconnection between 2 people who were once so connected. Of course, what I have learned (and you probably know this as well) is the reason that is so scary and painful is because it signaled a lack of safety or love as a child (has zilch to do with a romantic partner in reality). So I commend you for pushing through it and continuing to want to talk it through. If it makes you feel any better or more empowered, when I get even a WHIFF of something like that, I will utterly BOLT. You stayed the course and gave it your absolute all. You can leave this situation regret free as far as I'm concerned. No one is perfect and mistake-free. It's about finding someone who will ride that road with you and work through "mistakes" together. I think that continuing to be on tinder is pretty much universally considered unacceptable if that wasn't an explicit conversation beforehand. I think he seems like a nice person, but i mean GOD, really you should (and DID! Good for you) expect better than that (unless you are cool with it which you made explicitly clear to him you weren't). Can't imagine how that has played into your pre-existing insecurities but don't let this be about you-that is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT about him. Hopefully you know that already. But a triggered mind doesn't think rationally. You have so much going for you now-you are solidly in therapy. You are figuring out the ROOT of these issues (big aha moment for me too...like "oh wait this isn't about HIM this is about ME?  " when it comes to triggering etc. Now just being aware and knowing has changed my perspective completely). You are earning secure! This is huge. Watching your journey is inspiring and I have no doubt you will look back on this all as a gift one day. You expressed your needs in ways you hadn't before. You put down boundaries in ways you hadn't before. Reasons to be proud. Anyway, hugs from the forum to you |
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Post by dhali on Jul 30, 2020 2:19:29 GMT
I’m so sorry this is happening. :/
Based on what you wrote, I don’t think you did anything wrong. It’s just a toxic dance unfortunately. I think you’re being a hit hard on yourself.
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alice
Full Member
Posts: 128
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Post by alice on Jul 30, 2020 2:49:21 GMT
I think your actions are commendable and agree with dhali that you did not do anything wrong based on your posts. You put up boundaries which are healthy in a relationship and he did not like this due to his own attachment issues. Regardless of his motivation, you can't suffer at the hands of his behavior. I think everyone defines cheating differently. For me, knowing a man is seeking attention from (what he considers) attractive females (because he finds them attractive) is enough to walk (though I have heard plenty of excuses about this, in the end this is what they are doing). Though this is a deactivation strategy, that is not acceptable. Please know, healthy women in committed relationships do not find this acceptable and you also not finding it acceptable and also having a conversation about it means that you are moving towards a healthier and stronger place and should be very very proud of yourself. I think it is inspiring. I know the NC is hard. Hang in there. |
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Post by kittygirl on Jul 30, 2020 17:10:02 GMT
Caroline- you are AP right? Or FA heavy on the anxious? I ask because your post is filled with self-damaging, self-critical talk-about how the onus of the relationship falls squarely on your shoulders. Look what I have below...this is JUST from your one response to me. Absolutely filled with "I should have done stuff differently": -I feel like I did give him a sense of lack of safety and abandonment -I think I probably overexplained after that by letting him know it was my stuff and my feelings hadn't changed for him, etc. -I could've handled that with more of a "let's chat about this" than "this crossed my boundary, and isn't healthy for either of us" -I'm not impressed with myself for my negative narratives, and I do wish I could've successfully done some of the things I mentioned earlier in this thread (I wish I would've read back earlier) Now I will say that a lot of that is normal right after a relationship ends (i think everyone goes through that at first so I get that) BUT I also get worried that you are simply being WAY TOO HARD ON YOURSELF, and furthermore, NOT expecting enough from him. I obviously wasn't a participant in your relationship and I don't know you in real life at all (only know what you have shared via this forum) so I don't know what things you could have improved (we all can improve stuff so I am sure there are SOME things), but I can say a) how effing HARD communication (effective communication not just filling the air with sounds) is for insecurely attached individuals and you WERE PUTTING IN WORK which included setting down boundaries and (the most terrifying of all) asking for needs to be met, THIS IS ALL YOU CAN ASK FOR and b) I (and I don't want this to upset you! so please remember I only know what I am presented with here) feel like he was not really doing any of the reciprocal work on his end...like did he ever actually tell you a need of his? I know you guys had the conversation about sending the emoji when he pulls away and that's a start but like if he isn't expressing his needs, the relationship is literally doomed. I know because I have been there. As have you I am sure. You have SO MUCH to be proud of and you can't be expected to CARRY the relationship on your shoulders. That isn't sustainable. And for what it's worth, if someone was willing to throw away a relationship because you ASKED for space (didn't even just take it mind you! You literally communicated that you needed that in a healthy way) then the relationship isn't going to be able to withstand a lot. What more could you have done? Needing space is a perfectly normal part of being a human being. For what it is worth, I would also have been upset if I found out my boyfriend was a block away and didn't make an effort to see me (aggravation of the "I'm not important" core wound like crazy!!). You are so so entitled to feel upset about this stuff and frankly to feel short changed. Why wouldn't you? Your perception was that he was regularly plugged in with other people and not with you and I for one understand that this isn't necessarily a reflection of his feelings towards you (I can tend to do this as well even if I really like someone!) but instead might reflect a lack of self awareness and inability to recognize or express needs that will likely continue to lead to issues in the relationship over and over. This video just popped up in my feed today from Thais Gibson which is apropos! It's got a TERRIBLE title "How to win back an FA" because it's really not about that at all-it's really an examination of why FAs push people away or end relationships. If you find that triggering or it's too soon then ignore that. But You will see that (and it's my hunch with your guy as well) that if in fact he was never expressing his needs then this was not going to work. I would caution you if (and there's a good chance he will) he comes cycling back because if he isn't better at doing that stuff then it's going to meet the same fate a second, third etc time around. YOu know this, I know. www.youtube.com/watch?v=j12Q4FZhpvI&t=621sAnyway Caroline, celebrate small victories. YOu have kicked so much ass with this. |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jul 30, 2020 23:21:55 GMT
For what it is worth, I would also have been upset if I found out my boyfriend was a block away and didn't make an effort to see me (aggravation of the "I'm not important" core wound like crazy!!). You are so so entitled to feel upset about this stuff and frankly to feel short changed. Why wouldn't you? Your perception was that he was regularly plugged in with other people and not with you and I for one understand that this isn't necessarily a reflection of his feelings towards you (I can tend to do this as well even if I really like someone!) but instead might reflect a lack of self awareness and inability to recognize or express needs that will likely continue to lead to issues in the relationship over and over. Just to chime in, anyone, no matter your attachment style would be somewhat upset, after all that time spent, and making effort, and he's a block away and seemingly "makes no effort", but can be with friends? would be quite rightfully upset in some capacity. I would suspect only a Dismissive-Avoidant wouldn't seemingly care. {edit} Caroline you put in a huge effort, understood his attachment style (which he admitted was the case), accommodated him tremendously in every way. You simply cannot have done anything differently, there is no magic pill. Please be kind to yourself, and you should be happy in the work you have done and effort and willpower. |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jul 30, 2020 23:47:05 GMT
Just to chime in, anyone, no matter your attachment style would be somewhat upset, after all that time spent, and making effort, and he's a block away and seemingly "makes no effort", but can with friends? would be quite rightfully upset in some capacity. I would suspect only a Dismissive-Avoidant wouldn't seemingly care. I used to take it more personal - as I did when I was triggered obviously - but in a calm state, I don’t. He’s a huge loner, he was there by himself (as he always goes out by himself minus like meeting 1-2 friends occasionally but no obligation to stay with them), and I think it stresses his nervous system/him out to have the pressure of being on with me as I’m someone close (we’ve talked about this). But it’s much easier to see in a calm state that in an anxious one, which is also where my own work comes in to heal my nervous system and jumping to automatic assumptions of the worst output (which I do at first as that’s how I was programmed and why I need reprogramming). I’m not saying it wasn’t rude, that he realized it or not, or even that he wasn’t doing it as an FA distancing strategy - I have no idea... but all I can do is work on my part. You put in a huge effort Caroline, there is nothing you could have done better imao. It's all you can do. Be kind to yourself and hope you are feeling better soon. As you know, "intermittent reinforcement" can cause anxiety in anyone, I even felt it from my F-A partners actions, never ever before in my life had I experienced it. It can definitely be taken as "being rude", if you didn't know about attachment theory. However, he is an adult now, and responsible for his actions, he's not a child anymore. |
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Post by ocarina on Jul 31, 2020 15:51:03 GMT
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" when it comes to triggering etc. Now just being aware and knowing has changed my perspective completely). You are earning secure! This is huge. Watching your journey is inspiring and I have no doubt you will look back on this all as a gift one day. You expressed your needs in ways you hadn't before. You put down boundaries in ways you hadn't before. Reasons to be proud. 
