KAI
Junior Member
Posts: 61
|
Post by KAI on Jan 6, 2021 20:45:31 GMT
Hello,
still launched into a whilrwind of emotions and questions after a breakup that happened almost 3 weeks ago. It was very sudden and before that, she was the most tender, communicative, loveable girl you can imagine. Saying a lot she loved me and how i was the person she was waiting for. She was also very anxious, in constant need of reassurance on my part (jealousy, neediness). I found it very sweet, and as i think i might also be a bit AP, i could relate, i woudl reassure her, but also at times i had to be reassured myself, and she was doing it. But at some point, i must have triggered something, or maybe it's just that she felt the relationship was getting more real, or too much closeness, i don't know, anyway, all of a sudden, she turned dismissive, that's why i came to think she might be FA. Anxious in the beggining, then the switch.
Now something troubles me. I get the fearful turning dismissive part, there are a lot of stories here that describe this sudden switch. But during our whole relation, she was telling the absolute WORST of her ex every time she mentioned him (they had their thing going on for 5 months. we began tchatting through insta before they broke up, and made out maybe 1 or 2 weeks after) she even removed him from social media at some point, and expressed how irritated she was with him a lot (they had to work together sometimes so they had to meet, and she was always reluctant). To sum up, in her mouth, he was a complete half-wit moron, and she left him because they were "totally incompatible" in her own words. He has been pursuing her for i would say 2 months of our 4 months relationship, then they argued and she starting ignoring him. But was always anxious when she had to be in contact with him.
Now, even though she prevents me from seeing her stories on insta, she added him again on fb and insta and i know for a fact that they're back together. Probably the week right after we broke up. This is very puzzling to me.
I wonder if this is some kind of splitting that she is able to have a relationship with that guy that she expressed despising ? I get the need to go on a rebound, but i'm still baffled at how she would choose him to do that.. Of course he was very available, he has been waiting for that the whole time, but on her part, i have a feeling that it might be beyond FA.
Do you have any insight on that ? Do FAs often get into a rebound ? Is she circling back or having a cycle with him ? Is this what this is ? Is she filling the void or avoiding her feelings concerning the breakup by doing that ? And also : why would she say all those things on him to turn to him again ? IS it splitting ? I know that persons with bpd can do that this black and white thinking, is this also an FA trait ?
I know that some of you will react saying : FOCUS ON YOURSELF, and i do most of the time or at least i try, but it's quite recent, and i just had the proof right now that this is happening, that she can be despising someone and go back to him just like that. WTF. This is not something i can really talk or have feedback on with my close friends, they are not familiar neither with the FA patterns (and neither am i) or the BPD (i had 2 relationships with a bpd before, so i am more familiar with that so to speak)
So ... HELP ... Anything ...
thx
|
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jan 6, 2021 22:58:26 GMT
Yes, FA can do this, but it's when they are triggered and likely wouldn't be as long in duration or severe as what you're describing. One of my FA exes would go back and forth.... complaining to me about certain traits that I don't even necessarily have when he was deactivating and being dismissive, and getting stuck on those for up to a few months at a time to keep me at a distance (but not all out character assassinating me, some weird smaller projections through his own disconnection). Then when he was triggered anxious and trying to get me back in his life more, he'd suddenly put me back on a pedestal and compliment me on the same things and have forgotten that he'd complained about them -- until he was triggered avoidant again then would switch back to seeing them as negative things. It wasn't about me at all, since some of the things weren't even accurate. But this wasn't an overall splitting thing where he either liked me or didn't like me, it was more like he was trying to make up ways to justify when he felt more or less into me since he was actually too disconnected from himself to understand his feelings.
This sounds like more than FA to me, probably comorbid with something else (possibly BPD).
I also want to highlight where you describe your ex-partner as the MOST (insert complimentary adjectives here), which means you were also idealizing her.
If you have a history of dating BPD partners and... I believe you said your mom had BPD? (Apologies if that wasn't you and I'm mixing it up with another poster)... then you are conditioned to be attracted to people with BPD traits because it is familiar and comfortable. This is going to lead to you continuing to find yourself in chaotic and repetitive situations, and it will help you to find a therapist with expertise in BPD. Having BPD family members and partners has a very specific impact on those close to them who don't have BPD, and when you're ready to explore that (after you finish mourning this relationship), you may be able to make some real progress in healing, shifting your insecure attachment style to be more secure, and finding more emotionally stable partners.
|
|
KAI
Junior Member
Posts: 61
|
Post by KAI on Jan 7, 2021 0:39:38 GMT
Thanks again for your reply, Alexandra. (im french so sorry about my mistakes writing english..)
No, my mother doesn't have bpd, she is quite healthy mentally i would say but my father was a very depressed man, he stopped drinking when i was 1 year old maybe, and my mother said recently to me that he began to get a little better when i was around 6 ; She also said that they chose to keep me, even though the timing was not ideal with my father on the bottle because some doctor said it would be good for his mental health to have a child around (omg) so it can explain certain things concerning my attachment style (AP i think, although i can also turn a little dismissive with friends and anxious partners). i had a relationship that lasted 1 year with a bpd, not knowing she had bpd, and she did'nt know either, it ended in complete nightmare. Then about a year ago, another one that lasted maybe 3 months, she was aware of her being bpd, and confessed really early in the relationship, i tried it anyway as i thought she was working on it, but as soon as i found out she wasn't and she started acting out on me, i left. I was quite proud of myself for having been able to quit on an unhealthy relationship.
Now, going back to that girl, the recent one, yes i was ideolizing her a bit, that is true. She is very good looking (and that's a fact), and she was on her absolute best behavior for those 4 months. In the end i started to decipher a little bit of a child-like attitude which i was not too fond of, but yes, i was totally charmed by her, she was witty and funny. Now, with all that has happened since the breakup, the inconsistencies, her attitude, and her going back to him on top of that, i must say i'm starting to feel completely turned off, but i still need to understand some things about that situation, and i hope it's gonna help me spot earlier unhealthy traits in future partners, so thanks for helping me with your insights.
Now going back to the "splitting" of her ex (erm no i mean her boyfriend but he was her ex at the time lol), reading your aswer i thought that maybe she kept on being triggered by him repeatedly every time he tried to engage into getting her back, then confronting her with jealousy fits about me, then conflicts about work. That would explain what she would keep saying bad things about him over and over again... maybe .. but it still doesnt explain why she would endure such a low-life with her now ... hmmpf .. Is that bpd or FA ... ?
Since i wrote my last message i have been trying to spot red flags that would have indicated bpd traits in her, based on my experience of dating two of them, and i would say that her anxious side was very mild compared to what i've witnessed in my two bpd-exes. They both started to act out very early in the relationship compared to L.
Maybe everything is very related to her first deactivation after a period of closeness (one week holiday), after that, as she said to me that we had been too close and she needed some time off, i took action and also withdrew, maybe a little too much, and i wonder if my withdrawing at that moment didn't scare her even more. I remembered she said when i told her i was gonna be more distant "all i hear is rejection, rejection, rejection". I think i might have expressed a little too much that her going distant for 3 days without warning me had been hard and i needed to try something different like being more distant, she might have felt rejected at that moment and shot the bullet first, that"s my take. And maybe going back to that particuler ex was the easiest way to repress her feelings concerning the breakup. as he was so available.
I'm still reading a lot on the forums of course, and i'm more and more convinced that i want an healthy relationship (those are like unicorns nowadays apparently), i just don't exactly know what it looks like : i thought it was healthy in the beginning with : just 2 people falling madly in love.. Illusion, fantasy, unicorns
i'm still curious to hear/read more about this particuler subject : and maybe i will launch another thread : Can FA move on so fast ?
T H A N K S F O R A L L I N S I G H TS
|
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jan 7, 2021 2:03:26 GMT
We can't know here if she's FA or BPD. And no, it's not that people with insecure attachment move on so fast, it's one of two other things. It's usually actually that they get stuck when processing emotions etc. and end up not processing because it's painful and/or they don't have the tools -- they have insecure attachment patterns instead which prevent full processing BUT those patterns were necessary to protect them as children. So they once served a purpose, but we as humans don't naturally grow out of insecure attachment patterns. We need to work at it consciously, re-program our nervous systems in a way, and heal our trauma, if we wish to become more secure, confront things that feel bad instead of avoiding them (or, if you're anxious, wallowing in them), and process issues and trauma.
The other possibility is they got caught up in a fantasy bond (or perhaps trauma bond), and they didn't actually attach as deeply as they originally thought. Because they were seeing an ideal, fantasy, or projection, and not seeing their partner for real. However, if someone does this, they are probably very unaware of their emotional unavailability and do not have the capability of fully attaching because they are so far from being emotionally healthy and stable. That reflects on the work they need to do if they want stable romantic relationships, and not anything their partner did.
I'd recommend you look up object permanence to better understand some of this. It's a bigger issue with people with personality disorders than attachment issues alone, but may help you understand some more. We talk about it in other threads occasionally, too.
It's good you're leaving situations that are chaotic and unstable! That's hard for sure.
"healthy relationship (those are like unicorns nowadays apparently), i just don't exactly know what it looks like : i thought it was healthy in the beginning with : just 2 people falling madly in love.. Illusion, fantasy, unicorns"
A couple things here. First, healthy relationships aren't unicorns, but they are difficult for people with insecure attachment to find because they tend to be attracted to other people with insecure attachment styles or personality disorders. There's several reasons for that which is just part of attachment, but I summarize it by saying like attracts like. Which also means, the more secure someone gets, the more secure the partner they'll be attracted to and will attract. Considering them as unicorns comes from a scarcity mentality which is common for AP (and other insecure types) to have, and a scarcity mentality will fuel the fear of abandonment that is the core wound of the anxious side of insecure attachment (which in turn fuels more scarcity mentality).
Second, though you don't phrase this as a question, what does a secure attachment and a secure, healthy romantic relationship even look like is a very good question. And one it took me an embarrassingly long time to ask when I struggled with learning about AP! The truth is, it's not madly in love fantasy. That's hormones and anxiety being triggered, which feels like sparks. That is an overwhelming feeling, so it must be love? But anxious insecure attachers confuse longing and overwhelmed nervous systems with love. Easy to do when you think about it, that's what love songs and movies tell you.
In my opinion, after being on both the insecure and secure sides of this, healthy love is developing a foundation of consistency and trust over time. It is stable and less about quick sparks and more about getting to know and see the other person without projection, and you choosing each other over and over every day. It is about calmness and not feeling your nervous system get either overwhelmed or shut down. Wanting to be with someone but not NEEDING them to feel "whole." It is two whole parts coming together with good, healthy boundaries, good communication, and solid trust. It is not a back and forth, it is not I'm feeling stressed by work / exes / whatever else in my life and will take that stress out on the relationship. It is not the good times feel great with high highs but come with very bad times of the lowest lows. It's about connection, not anxiety relief.
Technically, secure attachment can be defined as comfort being either independent or interdependent with someone. You trust both yourself and other people (though with good boundaries, so you don't trust someone who has shown you you shouldn't trust them, but you don't assume in either direction until they've shown you who they are). You don't act out of a fear of abandonment or out of a fear of engulfment.
And, importantly, again in my opinion, you communicate openly and don't get stuck longer-term in any stages of emotional processing. That inability to fully process something that's happened comes from disconnecting from yourself in a way, usually because of something painful that happened in the past that you weren't able to process or didn't have the tools. That all gets stored in your body, even if you're not consciously aware of it. There's a book people on this board sometimes recommend called The Body Keeps Score which discusses this further.
|
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jan 7, 2021 3:47:05 GMT
Another area worth exploring at some point is AP generally develops when people have an inconsistent adult caregiver. If your father struggled with depression and alcoholism when you were a child and wasn't consistently emotionally available to you or consistent in general, you may have developed AP tendencies to stay attached in spite of the situation being painful for you and your kid needs being met only inconsistently. FA can also come from a parent with substance abuse issues, though tends to be more likely to develop from a situation that is scary, chaotic, and unpredictable (perhaps with physical or sexual abuse in addition to emotional) rather than predictably inconsistent.
|
|
KAI
Junior Member
Posts: 61
|
Post by KAI on Jan 7, 2021 9:36:53 GMT
Thanks again for your time Alexandra, and your kindness...
I've read a lot on this forum about this attraction of insecure to insecure. But how can you guess after just one meeting at a party that someone is insecure ? The insecurity usually creeps in after a few weeks or months, and it"s like cooking a lobster : you put it in cold water and slowly heat it until boilt, so the lobster doens't realize what is happening. It is true in my case that i may have overlooked some red flags, but they were not that obvious. They became more obvious at the end, and i started to withdraw. I have been in abusive relationships before and stayed, and that is were my insecurity played the most part i think, more than in my ability to decipher if somebody is insecure or not : you know something is not ok, but you keep on rolling with that, ultimately getting boilt. So the good thing is : i'm learning, and i'm less and less keen on staying.
But before, i never worked on myself, i took some hints, and grew in a way, but not so much consciously.
Now, insecure people have ways of masking their insecurities (of course they do): ithey can be extremely charming and funny and seductive, and self-assured on the outside and at the beginning especially, as they crave love a lot and know that it is how you attract people.
I can do that, and when i'm in the relationship, as i know i will have a hard time maintaining the effort of being that charming, i replace it with mild lovebombing. So this is an unhealthy behavior that i have to reflect upon, amongst others. And it obviously comes from a fear of abandonment. If i keep on giving, they will stay, but you don't bargain love. In fact, it's quite the opposite, that"s what i came to think. At some point, it becomes suspicious.
Now regarding that last relationship, and my hallucinating at how she can switch not only from being (apparently) completely head over heels in love with me one week to leaving me without even trying anything to make it work the following but then to go back the folllowing week to a guy she was constantly putting down (and she is now posting all kinds of "happy couple" pics on her insta stories - this is not very glorious on my part as she hides her stories from me , but i found a way to see his stories. I need to know who i'm dealing with. I need to be able to be fully disgusted with her when i see her to get my stuff back and not try anything to get her back. And maybe i need that to mourn what i thought we had.)
It helps a lot to see that her partners are totally interchangeable, and she doesn't seem to question her going back to him and the logic behind that ... It looks a lot like splitting... Severe splitting.
So when you talk about fantasy bond are you referring to her and me or her and the guy ? Or both ? Should i expect her circling back ?
I still have to get my stuff back, it's going to be tough seeing her, i know. I think once i will have done that, i will be able to move on easily. Probably next week i'll do that. (i might post about that later, looking for advice).
thanks so much again
|
|
|
|
Post by anne12 on Jan 7, 2021 11:29:32 GMT
How can you get a hint about what type of person you are dating: jebkinnisonforum.com/post/25543/jebkinnisonforum.com/post/25440/If the other has ambivalent attatchmentstyle: Calling, sending sms with smileys, seems a little needy, is in victim role. They can Be VERY feminine and sometimes they are creative. When the other person is ambivalent, the person can switch between wanting or not wanting/ being interested/not being interested.. They can have a tendency to lean forward. They can have a tendency to loose themselves when dating. They can talk a lot. Can ask a lot of questions. They tend to be more expressive with their faces and their voices. They often talk too fast or too erratically. They may feel a need to say as much as possible about a given topic, with the result that the quantity of their speech is too great. These partners often take too long to get to their point or to get their point across, and may bring up tangential or irrelevant material without realizing they are doing so. When the ambivalents are listening to their partner, it can make them feel a lot of emotions and this can create some thoughts, so that they are getting caught by their own feelings, so that they are not really lisitining Or they can be overly absorbed by their partner, so.that they are forgetting about themselves. They can have difficulty regulating themselves. They want their date/partner to help regulating their emotions. If the other becomes too avaliable, they can loose interest. They can get overwhelmed by their own emotions. They can have problems using the logical side of their brain. They can please as a way to get love. They can have low selfworth. They often had to emotionally caretake one of their parents as a child before the age of 14 years old. The bodylanguage of the ambivalent: They articulate a lot with their body, they can use a lot of facical expressions and they can seem very much "Alive". You can often watch how their feelings can come out of their body. They feel a lot, They can say "I feel, I sence" ect. They like to be close. Sometimes the can seem a little clingy. - sometimes they dont show it, but you can sometimes sence it by their energy. Sometimes they can use sex as a way to get close to you, when in reality they want something different, but they dont know how to ask for it. They can use different kinds of protest behaviors They can give, because they want to recieve. Their lovelanguage is often undivided attention/quality time and physical touch (sometimes also words of affimation. "I love you" ect.) May have had many relationsship. Jumping form one relationsship to another. Often dont like to be alone. How many relationships did they have and for how long ? Their relationship with their parents ? What do they work with ? And what do they like to do in their free time. They often like to be social. They can have sex way too fast. They can be kind of intense, but not as intence as the desorganized. They can be people pleasers and caregivers. They can reject compliments and things that you try to do for them They can have difficulty taking in love They may have trouble believing that they deserve love without having to a lot of things for the other person. They can think of love as something very romantic. They can get a crush on the other person after 1-3 dates. When they are getting a crush on the other person they can seem a little manic. They often like to spend money and like to "spoil" other people. If the other has disorganized: You may already have heard of unpredictable events, drama st They can have a lot of shame or can be shameless. They may have shared stories with a lot of drama ect.. They can share too much information about themselves. They can Be VERY facinating to Be With. Creative and feminine. Charming. Hot sex. They can be in high arousel when they date, and suddenly they can shut down and end things. Theres a lot of intensity in their nerveussystem. They can go into fight, flee, freeze, fawn mode and they can suddenly collapse and feel hopeless. They can be turned on or turned off like a switch - flip/flopping between extremes. Sometimes they can seem abmivalent -wanting a lot a contact and want to move close, and sometimes they can seem avoidant - wanting to move away. They do this because they panic. They may have had relatiosships in the past where they moved in with their partner fast, got married, had kids fast, and within a year or two they got divorced. They may often be late on your date. They could also as a child emotinally caretake one of their parents. Their parent may have had substance abuse, depressions or other kind of mental ilnesses, bpd, npd, aspd, asperger, adhd, their may have been a death in the family early on, a divorse, their parents may have suffered from different kinds of trauma, they could have had a birth trauma when they were born, their mother could have been very stressed out when she was carring them, their parents or other family members may have sexually overstepped their boundareis verbally, by using a certain look or physicially. Their parents may have genereated a lot of emergency enegry in their own nerveussystem, but in a quiet way. They could also have had parents who argued a lot in front of them, parents who have shouted at them or at their opposite parent or siblings, or their parent culd have argued in a quiet way, but they had picked up the energy in their parents. They may have seen powerdynamics between their parents. They can interrupt themselves in sentences. Especially when they talk about the past. They hear a no as a rejection of them selves as a whole person. They can pull back - ex- slam the door or they can break down and can give up - say inside themselves" there is something wrong with me...ect" Or they can be very insisting to get a yes: "It is good for you to walk, fresh air is good for your health, I'm going to find your shoes now, you never want to do anything when I ask you..." ect Or they can threaten to get a yes - " If you won't do this then ....." They can overstep their own and/or their partners bounndareis. They can have sex way too fast. Its often because they cant feel their own boundries. They can have a tendency to be in relationsship where thier partner oversteps their boundaries. They can have had relationships witih underedog/topdog dynamics/ on being in power and the other being powerless They can walk right into danger, because they are confused and dissosiated. Look at their bodylanguage and their facical expressions. They can have a tendency to lean forward and be very attuned. Or they can sometimes go into frezee mode or look like they want to run away. They can like to do extreme sports They can sometimes be a little zoned out, because they are in freeze mode. They can fawn They can use black and white, either / or thinking. They can put you on a pedistal You can go into an adventure with them with lot of intensity, making love all the time, you spend a lot of time together, having fun, can move in together fast. When they speak, they can suddenly trail off, and forget what they were talking about. There is a lot of energy in their body from the stomac and up in the upper body. They can stiffen in their upper body and they can feel very tired. They are used to being alert. The disorganised can suddenly jump back when in contact, They hear a no as a rejection of them selves as a whole person. They can pull back - ex- slam the door or they can break down and can give up - say inside themselves" there is something wrong with me...ect" Or they can be very insisting to get a yes: "It is good for you to walk, fresh air is good for your health, I'm going to find your shoes now, you never want to do anything when I ask you..." ect Or they can threaten to get a yes - " If you won't do this then ....." Has there been a lot off drama in their past relationsships ? Be prepared that you do not know what is going to happen. The relationship can end abruptly. May have had a lot of short, intence relationsships. They may only have situational desorgannied attatchmenbtstyle - maybe only 5% - but these 5% can be the reason why they are struggeling in their lovelife. People who are in survial mode, do not have the ability to love, because they have to use their energy to be able to survive. When their nerveussystem gets more regulated, they can better bond. Be clear about your boundaries. Say clearly no and clearly yes. Be clear, use short sentences. Rest in yourself. Look at the examble with the dog Valdemar with desorganised trauma. Remember the desorganised likes to be in control. So in the dating pf phase try to let the desorganised take the initiative. They need to feel safe on order to be able to open up. Tehy need to slow down when dating. |
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jan 7, 2021 11:51:32 GMT
In addition to you looking up object permanence to help better understand that concept, it helps to better understand fantasy and trauma bonds. So I'll paste here what I wrote in another thread: Fantasy bonds avoid real vulnerability by assigning roles in the relationship, and seeing yourself and the other person in those roles instead of really seeing yourself and your partner clearly and connecting to each other deeply. In summary, it's more about dating someone's potential rather than reality. www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/psychology-of-fantasy-bonds-in-relationships-and-how-they-formI believe trauma bonds are more, things started out good and seemed safe, and then there was a switch so that there was abuse and intermittent reinforcement introduced later on. So the person suddenly being abused is confused, perhaps blames themselves for the change, and yearns for the previously "safe" and loving version of the partner to reappear, feeling a high and anxiety reduction when it does. So in your case, I don't know how your ex is bonding with you or her off-and-on guy, and I don't know if she's FA or BPD. But it sounds to me like she's young and flakey and not truly looking for a stable, long-term relationship right now. Though it's painful to hear, one possibility is you may have been a rebound distraction that made her feel good after her breakup and let her avoid dealing with it for some time. BUT I think it's actually more likely that she's very emotionally immature and did split the other guy, which is why she made him sound so awful to you when she was avoidant with him (he's probably not actually as awful as she said) but then went back to him. The object permanence I suggested you look up may help explain this. You're right, it's difficult to know someone's attachment style right away, and I wasn't suggesting that's necessary. Now I'm going to explain a lot about this, because even though I know you're not up to dating others yet and are focused on understanding her and hopefully mourning the relationship so you can move on, you can think about if anything I get to about red flags applies to you or to her. The way you handle not knowing someone's attachment style and compatibility with you right away is to keep healthy emotional boundaries and not jump into a relationship immediately, even if a relationship is what you're looking for. You can say to a potential partner that's your goal, of course, so that you can make sure they're in the same mindset and aren't looking for something very different from you at this time. But if you're on the same page in general, then you spend some time talking, being curious about the person, get to know them, building trust, and don't rush into giving your heart away or rush into physical intimacy immediately. Have good boundaries, and see if she also has good boundaries and respects yours. The main thing you're looking for is consistency: do actions match words, and do they seem steady over a few weeks? Then after a few months, have there been any big surprises? (There shouldn't be!!) Do actions and words still match? Did she pull away after physical intimacy started? Consistency doesn't mean boring! Maybe you even go on adventures together as you get to know each other, spending time together should still be fun! But when you talk, she communicates her feelings and needs and there's no mind-reading or guessing or assuming. When problems come up, you can both talk through them without getting overly defensive. I have found that one way to make insecurely attached guys leave quickly is if I do take the time to get to know them without fast-forwarding to physical intimacy. I still reach out, respond a lot, act interested, but I want to talk and get to know them and get closer over a few weeks or more first. Any guy who wants something very casual only or who wants to rush and doesn't respect a slower speed won't like this and will leave -- so we're not compatible. Very often, refusing to take some time to get to know each other reveals if the man is insecure: he wants to feel validated through me even though he doesn't know me, so not rushing sounds like a rejection, even though I'm being very clear and consistent and saying there's no rejection! Secure men I've met have had no problem with us getting to know each other better first. I used to only date men who wanted to rush, and looking back now that I understand attachment theory, not one of them was secure. There was so much projection from them but I didn't understand this at the time. Another red flag is if you ask about her dating history and it sounds chaotic, or if she says all her exes are crazy, or if she says bad things about multiple exes. Chances are, she is the common thread and she will one day talk badly about you as well. Or she only chooses emotionally unavailable guys, which means she is also unavailable in a way. You doing mild lovebombing actually is filtering out the more secure women and leaving you more likely to date someone with attachment issues or a personality disorder, so it is very good you called this out! I will explain. Lovebombing is displaying very bad boundaries on your part. A woman who is not insecure will usually be turned off by this because it will feel uncomfortable for her. You do not know her yet, and that means you are projecting ideals onto her and putting her on a pedestal she didn't ask for. If her boundaries are healthy, she will sense that you're not seeing her as she is or giving each other enough space to get to know each other at a slow enough speed to build trust. She will feel your projection and like you require her validation as you do not feel enough on your own. In my experience, this always went very badly. When I was AP and stayed for love bombing, once the excited hormones and sparks calmed down after a few weeks, the guy would feel his own problems again and then would get mad at me that I did not fix his insecurities that existed before we even met. OR, the guy was trying to get me to like him enough that he could control me (this was usually an abusive man using this strategy). So for me, love bombing isn't about who I actually am, it's only about the guy himself, and I view this as a giant red flag. The other giant red flag is feeling blindsided. A secure person will probably tell you how they feel, even if it's not positive, as they'll want to see if you can address it together. They won't hold it inside and not communicate with you until they appear to suddenly change their mind. I learned this the hard way, as I dated avoidants over and over who did this to me, but I also didn't communicate well enough with them so it wasn't only their fault. I'd sense something was wrong but would get too afraid of a breakup to ask. It is also a red flag to feel like any small disagreement may result in a breakup... this means there is no stable foundation of trust or ability to mutually communicate and problem solve when issues come up. Getting to a point where all I've said above sounds attractive to you in a partner may require you first to work on your self esteem and self acceptance so that you trust yourself more and fear abandonment less. When I was very AP, I just wanted to jump into feeling sparks, so I always was attracted to avoidants. This only stopped when I began to work on my AP and got more secure on my side. Then I finally felt drawn to more secure men as well. |
|
KAI
Junior Member
Posts: 61
|
Post by KAI on Jan 7, 2021 15:45:25 GMT
Thank you Anne12 and Alexandra it's so good to be able to get advice from the community, i really appreciate the support. I know that i'm on the right track and i'm ready to deconstruct my patterns and objectively look at the way i am acting when i am involved. I think i will have to find a balance so that the intense loveseeker doesnt turn into a cold fish, but one thing at a time.
Anne12, according to the list you provided, it's quite obvious that i am more of an AP, and she is an FA. If the splitting or black and white as you listed is something that you can find in FA's way of being in a relationship, well, here we are.
All this radicality about breaking up so fast is very much black and white thinking aka splitting, don't you think: "no it's never gonna work" all of a sudden, which she probably pulled with the other guy as well and she probably rejected him overnight like she did with me. Poor fellow probably did'nt see that coming either, hence his chasing. I would probably would have done the same if i didn't already know a bit about attachment styles and didn't have a little self-respect.
By the way, he was also a rebound. Before that, she was 4 years with somebody else, then 5 months with him, then me for 4 months. She had very little time in between everything.
It makes sense with what you are applying too Alexandra about the mentionning of her past chaotic lovelife : to the point ! She absolutely talked about all her exes in a poor way, and mentionned one or 2 epic stories. Always their fault of course, because they didn't get her or were too possessive, or violent or not self-sufficient enough.
As for the rest, it is hard to tell, she appeared very consistent communicative, and loving. Before meeting, we chatted for 2 weeks, getting to know each other only via this chat, then we met for our 1st date, did'nt get intimate. On the 2nd date we did. The only red flags were her acceptance of my lovebombing to the point that i began at the end to feel that i was too much of a pleaser for her, and so i began to withdraw. Another red flag = her anxious side. One day, she felt very anxious because i was supposed to be coming at 3, and i told her i needed to finish sthg first, and would come at 5, and she was pissed. But it was always taking the form of fragility, and all i wanted to do was to comfort her, i still managed to keep my boundaries intact and came at 5.
I didn't feel blindsided, but i probably was.
On the second date, she asked that we would be exclusive. I guess it's a red flag in terms of intensity. She also said that very same day that i had everything to seduce her. Coming on REAL strong. I then felt entitled to come on strong as well.. It's those kind of dynamics, i wanted to match her intensity in a way.
But the major major red flag was the sudden breakup and all that ensued.
Because since the breakup, oh boy i'm like what the f* . I'm also like : well you're out, lucky you. I am still focused on the relationship because i want to understand how i could be so mistaken, but i'm relieved, and i know it's over. Nothing good can come out of that relationship anymore.
So yeah I think she definitely split the guy, and i think she is splitting me right now : she removed pictures of me on her insta (which she did'nt with all her other exes), and comments related to me. I have the feeling she is denying my very existence. Why would she do that ? The breakup was quite clearcut, and she expressed "not feeling it anymore", if there really was no emotion at all, i think she would just let it go without all this cutting me out all of a sudden. It's like she is angry with me or something. Or i'm still triggering something. Until today she was looking at my stories, and she stopped. Just today.
I sent her 1 hour ago a message on insta to set a date so that i could get my stuff back (end of the line). It was a very friendly message, casually asking how she was, wishing her a happy ny and that i had an appointment not far from her house in one week so i could drop by to get my stuff back, ended the message very lightly, no drama. She saw it 20 minutes later, but didn't reply (this is very unlike what i know of her, she was always very quick to respond).
As i am in unknown territory, i don't fucking know how she's gonna react : maybe she will now ghost me and i will have a very hard time getting my stuff back. i think at this stage, i can expect anything, especially more drama. It's like she is trying to get a reaction from me. I wonder if she is irritated because i don't chase, because i don't prevent her from seeing my stories, because i seem unaffected on the surface (lol), and because i communicated very scarcely since the breakup, maybe she was expecting me to.
I swear one day, not far from now, i will stop mentally spiraling over this girl, or other insecurely attached not doing the work and i will be the one adding insight to some newbie's desperate thread... until then, i think what i need is use as an exercize to reveal unhealthy behaviors on my part and on the partner's part, that's the best i can do right now. THX THX THX
|
|
|
|
Post by anne12 on Jan 7, 2021 17:19:28 GMT
@kai You are welcome "I have been in abusive relationships before and stayed" - I would investigate why .....
....falling for women who are - extremely charming and funny and seductive, and self-assured - at the beginning, who come on strong at a bar ect., can be a red flag. Maybe men are getting flattered by this behavior, but you can also see it as boundare violations, a possiveness, youre mine! (like a predator chacing its prey in the wild). A guy on this board wrote, that his friends said, that he should take it as a compliment when a woman were hitting on him and touching him at a bar... I dont agree. Why should it be more okay for woman to touch a man, than a man touching a woman at a bar ? - Maybe you are in some kind of freeze, being used to getting your boundaries crossed ? jebkinnisonforum.com/post/34818/ - Dating when you are drunk/tipsy:
Alcohol helps to soothe your senses and lover your boundaries. Alcohol makes you happy and outgoing and it gives you the courage to contact the opposite sex. You are not able to be fully precent when you are drunk/a bit tipsy.
It's not about falling in love, but purely about attraction. There is also the risk of having sex too soon, when drunk and there's a risk meeting people who becomes unfaithfull when drunk. You can also easily overlook your deal-breakers when drunk/tipsy.
If you want a real partner then have fun while out in town but date (and try to find a partner) when you aren't drunk another day instead.
Find out what it is that you want in lovelife. Do you just want to have sex and flirt and have fun and can you handle a rejection the next day - then go.
jebkinnisonforum.com/post/34869/ - Disregulated People who are in a kind of freeze state and low on energy/who are nummed out are more prone to attract people with dysregulated prepretator energy. People with prepretator energy say that they can spot people in freeze/they can feel their low energy miles away. For examble at a bar.If you are low on energy, in freeze/shut down and not well regulated be carefull because you can attract these type of people without being aware of it. You are in risk of being hunted like wounded/weak animals in the wild. You are also not able to detect danger the same way as if you were wellregulated. (Peter Levine)
Bad relationships can push you more into one of the other attatchmentstyles. More information: jebkinnison.boards.net/thread/1188/attatchment-style-decription-relying-thetestsBecause you are using the word splitting a lot, you can watch this: Diane Poole Heller talks about - bpd dianepooleheller.com/video-4/Some men on the board have discussed their interactions with bpd girlfriends a couple of years ago: jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1235/bpd |
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jan 8, 2021 2:34:43 GMT
Anne12, according to the list you provided, it's quite obvious that i am more of an AP, and she is an FA.
Have you actually taken an attachment assessment? I am not sure if you are AP or FA. Either is possible. If you are FA and she is a more avoidant FA, that can push you to look AP. When you dated your BPD exes, would them getting more anxious make you withdraw? An FA dating someone more anxious can make them appear more DA. Anyway, this test is helpful and links you to the same attachment site as anne did: dianepooleheller.com/attachment-test/
Results that are showing each attachment styles in quarters (all four styles come up around 25%) are FA. Results that are under 60% secure with the biggest portion of the rest in AP are AP.
I do think she is FA, but I suspect she also has another additional mental health issue that is more than just FA. I don't know her, so I am not sure what it is. But as it sounds like you already know, she is not an emotionally safe person for you.
By the way, he was also a rebound. Before that, she was 4 years with somebody else, then 5 months with him, then me for 4 months. She had very little time in between everything.It makes sense with what you are applying too Alexandra about the mentionning of her past chaotic lovelife : to the point ! She absolutely talked about all her exes in a poor way, and mentionned one or 2 epic stories. Always their fault of course, because they didn't get her or were too possessive, or violent or not self-sufficient enough. These are very big red flags. Someone who is always in a relationship, especially with partners she later complains about, who does not take time to be single is avoiding her issues. She craves distraction and validation from men. She is not taking time to grieve, process, reflect, or change. If you jump from rebound to rebound, then eventually if you need to be single, you have the first relationship AND every single one afterwards AND your own issues from before you started dating piling up and piling up to have to work through that will eventually hit you all at once. Or, you keep running and avoiding that. But if she doesn't stop and do her work, it will be very difficult for any romantic partner she finds. This is probably one of the reasons she comes at people so hard. If she can convince herself she's in love right away and this time it's the real thing (except it's probably a fantasy bond), then she doesn't have to feel bad for a little longer because the sparks and hope that this time she found the magic solution to all her problems will allow her to avoid it. I didn't feel blindsided, but i probably was. I'm not sure what this means. Are you saying your gut picked up on her unhappiness before she ended things so you weren't so surprised? If someone doesn't communicate how they feel at all and then just leaves, and it's a complete shock and surprise, that is being blindsided. And the red flag, as you do know for this one, is the complete lack of communication and expecting you can read her mind (and perhaps anger when you didn't read her mind and give her everything she thought she maybe wanted). On the second date, she asked that we would be exclusive. I guess it's a red flag in terms of intensity. She also said that very same day that i had everything to seduce her. Coming on REAL strong. I then felt entitled to come on strong as well.. It's those kind of dynamics, i wanted to match her intensity in a way. This is a huuuuuuuuuuuge red flag as well. Perhaps you missed this because some people like to say they are exclusive once they get physically intimate. But almost anyone who wants to be exclusive after 2-3 weeks and on the second date is RUSHING to skip actual intimacy. You do not know someone well enough after 2 weeks of talking and 2 dates (with a physical encounter) to commit in a healthy way. Perhaps you want to give that person your full attention and are not interested in seeing others so you can get to know that person better, and that's fine! But that's different from putting labels on after 2 dates. The only men I've ever known who have done this to me were trying to control me and were very, very emotionally unstable. I just didn't know these were red flags at the time. That intensity without knowing someone better is about the person and not about you as a partner, so that's another reason it can flip on and off no matter what you do. I have the feeling she is denying my very existence. Why would she do that ? The breakup was quite clearcut, and she expressed "not feeling it anymore", if there really was no emotion at all, i think she would just let it go without all this cutting me out all of a sudden. I think you're right, if there was no emotion she wouldn't feel so strongly about shutting you out. However, the emotion may very well be negative emotion. And my bet is it's a combination of all the things I've already mentioned: she doesn't know how to process her emotions, she is running away from her own issues and bad feelings that have nothing to do with you, she only wants distractions from herself and her own pain, she doesn't have the tools to be mature, she's disconnected from herself and her needs (which is why she can't process anything fully), and what I've recommended you look up: that she very likely struggles with object permanence. I sent her 1 hour ago a message on insta to set a date so that i could get my stuff back (end of the line). It was a very friendly message, casually asking how she was, wishing her a happy ny and that i had an appointment not far from her house in one week so i could drop by to get my stuff back, ended the message very lightly, no drama. She saw it 20 minutes later, but didn't reply (this is very unlike what i know of her, she was always very quick to respond). I have been through this. I was off and on with an FA ex for a long time. Each time we broke up, I'd ask for my things back with a friendly message, and he would ignore me for about a week. Then I'd ask again, except without it being a friendly message. It wouldn't say anything except short and to the point: "Here are the most convenient times to return my things. Please tell me immediately which works." Then he'd start responding and we'd be able to trade back.
I have been writing a lot in my responses to you because I also did not know what a secure or healthy relationship looked like for a very long time, and I did not know about a lot of these red flags. It was very important to learn, just so I would stop repeating myself by getting into the same situations over and over. But it is not good to be suspicious of any new partner who has not given you reason to distrust them, either. In addition to learning the red flags, it's very important you hold healthy boundaries, including with her. You know she is unstable, so you must take responsibility for yourself and not let someone unstable "have control of the wheel" as our saying goes. Do not give away control of your drive to someone else who does not know how to drive either!
|
|
KAI
Junior Member
Posts: 61
|
Post by KAI on Jan 8, 2021 8:13:40 GMT
So i've taken the test and i got : secure 47anxious 27,5 avoidant 12,5 disorganized 12,5
SO it matches what i thought for myself i think i can be secure in relationships, but if something seems off i will compensate, and usually, it's on the anxious side. The bpds i knew were veeeeery anxious, and very eager to spend most of their time with me, so yeah, i turned a bit dismissive with them to protect my alone time which i definitely need. I have some trouble with intimacy. Not sex, but sleeping with somebody or spending too much time with them, i need to go recharge. So that's a bit avoidant i guess. But with that last girl, i decided that i could'nt decently have sex with her and leave, that she could have the feeling it was disrespectful, so i decided to force it and began spending time with her (reasonably) and staying to sleep and i quickly got used to it, and it was ok, i enjoyed it.
It's my first rodeo with an FA, so i'm still struggling to understand if it"s just that or something more complex and severe, it looks a bit like it, but yes, there are some similarities between that girl and the bpds i knew, a kind of "off" feeling at times. I still can't pinpoint it, and i would say the bpds were more upfront, more visible. She was more "hidden" i would say. More repressed.
I wonder how she could spend 4 years with somebody, how that person managed that. I guess he just endured being mistreated, ignored at times, and kept being there.
The "exclusivity" redflag on the 2nd date felt really weird to me on the moment, but at the same time, imagine having that beautiful girl, smart, funny, sensitive saying that she's all yours and she wants only you, i wanted to dive into it. Now retrospectively i remember that she mentionned that the other guy wanted an open relationship, when they were together, and "even though she was never in love with him, she could'nt stand the idea of sharing him" (her own words), she admitted being very jealous so i guess she projected that frustration on me.
So yeah, she said that "she never really loved him", she also said when he was trying to get her back "he could never compare to you anyway". She said all kinds of things about them not being compatible, that intellectually they weren't a match (and of course, we were an absolute match), that he was laughing on insignificant things. The only good thing about him she said was that the sex was ok except he wasn't sweet at all afterwards, no tendernes. She also mentionned that something happened during sex that upset her, but did'nt give me more details. The guy also has Bipolar disorder.
ERm, yeah i think i was blindsided, sorry i thought it meant sthg else. She deactivated after we spent one whole week together in the countryside, after that, she drastically reduced contact (it was like night and day compared to our previous way of communicating by texts when we were apart), but she did'nt leave me right away. There was 3 days of "non-interested" communication, where i could feel that she was not as into me as she used do, then i asked her "what's going on?". She answered quite clearly and kindly that i shouldnt worry, that it was just that she felt too much closeness, and needed some distance but everything was ok. She also said that i had been too present, too much attention, so i began to withdraw, and kind of deactivated as well : i don't know if it was self-preservation , some kind of FA traits on my part, but yeah i leaned on the avoidant side at that stage. I explained to her that we needed to find another dynamic and balance between us, and that i needed to distance in order to do that, she immediately said 'all i hear is rejection rejection rejection" and that she feared that we would "grow apart". But that's what she was asking for right before !!!
It went on like that for another week, then we had this talk, the final one. Where i asked her "where are we standing?", and as she was wishy-washy, not positionning herself, i kind of stepped in saying "well maybe we lived all there was to live together and that"s the end". (Yes i said that, i was angry i guess, or hoped she was gonna say "of course not! let's live happily ever after".). And to my surprise she said "yes, it's over, your're right, i'm not feeling it anymore". Then she cried a lot, had an anxiety attack, pain in the chest, she said it was hard losing me, i said "it doesn't have to be this way", but she seemed to be really determined anyway.
SHe also gave me a lot of keys as to her being FA saying : -'im like that, when people are too far, i crave them, and when they get too close, i cant' stand it" (she really said that !) -i have been projecting a lot on you during the relationship -that's my problem = i want somebody that's perfect -your vulnerabilty sends me back to mine, and i cant' bear to be looking at my own vulnerabilty or something like that
She was in shock (so was i), then she said she needed to be alone, and would call me a uber, and when i was about to leave, she very tenderly said "can i kiss you goddbye ?" and we kissed.
After that, it was all silence and coldness, and going back to the on and of guy quite immediately. Now she looks very happy on the pics and in her new life (i'm not supposed to see them : she hides her stories from me, and i noticed yesterday that two of her friends were also hiding their stories from me when they appear on them during parties or stuff (through my fake account, shame on me. I know i should stop stalking her or the on-and-off guy, but it helps convincing me that she is emotionnally non viable and a danger for me...)
Alexandra, your commenting on my last post has been very useful, and it really matches what i think for myself about her from what i experienced, I really think she is drowning her pain into relationships every time, and of course, it doesn't work. My guess is whatever is happening with the on-and-off guy will run its course, and it will end just like last time, as she jumped right back into it with no work on herself whatsoever. (His being bipolar won't help either). Probably convincing herself that "we weren't compatible". She is also probably painting an awful portrait of me just like she did with On-and-Off bipolar guy, to convince herself and others that 'it wasnt' meant to be", that i was too much this or that. It's also very possible that once it is over with On-and-Off she has the same 180 turn, and tries to come back. Although my non chasing and apparent full acceptance of the breakup could prevent her from doing so by fear of being rejected..
I also wondered if she could have broken up "shooting 1st" by fear that i would do so, as i began to express doubts on how this whole thing was going. That would also explain the post breakups passive-aggressive shutting me out as to punish me of sthg.
|
|
|
|
Post by amber on Jan 9, 2021 21:13:37 GMT
Anne12, according to the list you provided, it's quite obvious that i am more of an AP, and she is an FA.
Have you actually taken an attachment assessment? I am not sure if you are AP or FA. Either is possible. If you are FA and she is a more avoidant FA, that can push you to look AP. When you dated your BPD exes, would them getting more anxious make you withdraw? An FA dating someone more anxious can make them appear more DA. Anyway, this test is helpful and links you to the same attachment site as anne did: dianepooleheller.com/attachment-test/
Results that are showing each attachment styles in quarters (all four styles come up around 25%) are FA. Results that are under 60% secure with the biggest portion of the rest in AP are AP.
I do think she is FA, but I suspect she also has another additional mental health issue that is more than just FA. I don't know her, so I am not sure what it is. But as it sounds like you already know, she is not an emotionally safe person for you.
By the way, he was also a rebound. Before that, she was 4 years with somebody else, then 5 months with him, then me for 4 months. She had very little time in between everything.It makes sense with what you are applying too Alexandra about the mentionning of her past chaotic lovelife : to the point ! She absolutely talked about all her exes in a poor way, and mentionned one or 2 epic stories. Always their fault of course, because they didn't get her or were too possessive, or violent or not self-sufficient enough. These are very big red flags. Someone who is always in a relationship, especially with partners she later complains about, who does not take time to be single is avoiding her issues. She craves distraction and validation from men. She is not taking time to grieve, process, reflect, or change. If you jump from rebound to rebound, then eventually if you need to be single, you have the first relationship AND every single one afterwards AND your own issues from before you started dating piling up and piling up to have to work through that will eventually hit you all at once. Or, you keep running and avoiding that. But if she doesn't stop and do her work, it will be very difficult for any romantic partner she finds. This is probably one of the reasons she comes at people so hard. If she can convince herself she's in love right away and this time it's the real thing (except it's probably a fantasy bond), then she doesn't have to feel bad for a little longer because the sparks and hope that this time she found the magic solution to all her problems will allow her to avoid it. I didn't feel blindsided, but i probably was. I'm not sure what this means. Are you saying your gut picked up on her unhappiness before she ended things so you weren't so surprised? If someone doesn't communicate how they feel at all and then just leaves, and it's a complete shock and surprise, that is being blindsided. And the red flag, as you do know for this one, is the complete lack of communication and expecting you can read her mind (and perhaps anger when you didn't read her mind and give her everything she thought she maybe wanted). On the second date, she asked that we would be exclusive. I guess it's a red flag in terms of intensity. She also said that very same day that i had everything to seduce her. Coming on REAL strong. I then felt entitled to come on strong as well.. It's those kind of dynamics, i wanted to match her intensity in a way. This is a huuuuuuuuuuuge red flag as well. Perhaps you missed this because some people like to say they are exclusive once they get physically intimate. But almost anyone who wants to be exclusive after 2-3 weeks and on the second date is RUSHING to skip actual intimacy. You do not know someone well enough after 2 weeks of talking and 2 dates (with a physical encounter) to commit in a healthy way. Perhaps you want to give that person your full attention and are not interested in seeing others so you can get to know that person better, and that's fine! But that's different from putting labels on after 2 dates. The only men I've ever known who have done this to me were trying to control me and were very, very emotionally unstable. I just didn't know these were red flags at the time. That intensity without knowing someone better is about the person and not about you as a partner, so that's another reason it can flip on and off no matter what you do. I have the feeling she is denying my very existence. Why would she do that ? The breakup was quite clearcut, and she expressed "not feeling it anymore", if there really was no emotion at all, i think she would just let it go without all this cutting me out all of a sudden. I think you're right, if there was no emotion she wouldn't feel so strongly about shutting you out. However, the emotion may very well be negative emotion. And my bet is it's a combination of all the things I've already mentioned: she doesn't know how to process her emotions, she is running away from her own issues and bad feelings that have nothing to do with you, she only wants distractions from herself and her own pain, she doesn't have the tools to be mature, she's disconnected from herself and her needs (which is why she can't process anything fully), and what I've recommended you look up: that she very likely struggles with object permanence. I sent her 1 hour ago a message on insta to set a date so that i could get my stuff back (end of the line). It was a very friendly message, casually asking how she was, wishing her a happy ny and that i had an appointment not far from her house in one week so i could drop by to get my stuff back, ended the message very lightly, no drama. She saw it 20 minutes later, but didn't reply (this is very unlike what i know of her, she was always very quick to respond). I have been through this. I was off and on with an FA ex for a long time. Each time we broke up, I'd ask for my things back with a friendly message, and he would ignore me for about a week. Then I'd ask again, except without it being a friendly message. It wouldn't say anything except short and to the point: "Here are the most convenient times to return my things. Please tell me immediately which works." Then he'd start responding and we'd be able to trade back.
I have been writing a lot in my responses to you because I also did not know what a secure or healthy relationship looked like for a very long time, and I did not know about a lot of these red flags. It was very important to learn, just so I would stop repeating myself by getting into the same situations over and over. But it is not good to be suspicious of any new partner who has not given you reason to distrust them, either. In addition to learning the red flags, it's very important you hold healthy boundaries, including with her. You know she is unstable, so you must take responsibility for yourself and not let someone unstable "have control of the wheel" as our saying goes. Do not give away control of your drive to someone else who does not know how to drive either!
I can attest to the bit about going from r/ship to r/ship without processing anything.i have jumped from one relationship to the next my whole life until recently, and once I decided to be single and heal my issues, I discovered I had A massive backlog of grief that I hadn’t processed from two long term relationships spanning over the last twelve years! Plus grief from my fathers death that I had shoved down with distractions from being in relationship. So it is not healthy to do this! At some point it gets you.i cried like a baby for literally six months solid. I can say now though I’m in a much better place for processing this grief and feel like I’m on my way to earned secure as well |
|
