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Post by tnr9 on Oct 21, 2021 20:06:52 GMT
But I wasn't trying to convince you of anything either....just was sharing from how I experience it. And whether you subscribe to the AP line of thinking...it is helpful especially on these boards to be less dismissive of it. The way you have responded is exactly how my mom would and imagine how that made me feel to have my feelings "dismissed". I never have understood this from a dismissive avoidant....the dismissal of other's reality instead of trying to understand it. Is it not something that can be held as separate and not something that has to be denied? I find the AP approach to be combative and actually dismissive of other points of view as well. I think AP are also very unaware of how they come across, typically as victims of other perspectives that don't align with their own. Did you affirm my POV? Did you find any validity there that you could align with? No, but that is fine with me, it takes nothing from me. I was asked to explain my position- that doesn't oblige me to change it or bend over backwards to make people feel ok with it. The article was not written by a DA, So I figured I would put it here in case it explains it better and I thought it was very thorough. I have tried to disagree respectfully and bow out of the discussion. I am not your mother nor need you respond to me as you might her. We just disagree and I don't find anything to push against in that. So- I'm the only DA here and clearly you more anxious leaning align together. I can accept that your adaptation is what it is but I don't want to engage about it. Is that not fair? I've offered explanation I was asked for. Now, I would like to respectfully refrain from further discussion. Not everyone has to agree or people please in any direction. I'm not hostile, simply not wanting to expend time and energy in this topic. I have other topics I am interested in here. So I am supposed to validate your point of view first in order for you to understand mine? And I am not allowed to have a conversation where we civilly disagree? I stated that my medication had not kicked in....I have a serotonin deficiency. I was simply providing some context from having 1. A serotonin deficiency, 2. HSP and 3. a very DA leaning mom. The combination of such has created some automatic responses. That was my point.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2021 20:13:40 GMT
I find the AP approach to be combative and actually dismissive of other points of view as well. I think AP are also very unaware of how they come across, typically as victims of other perspectives that don't align with their own. Did you affirm my POV? Did you find any validity there that you could align with? No, but that is fine with me, it takes nothing from me. I was asked to explain my position- that doesn't oblige me to change it or bend over backwards to make people feel ok with it. The article was not written by a DA, So I figured I would put it here in case it explains it better and I thought it was very thorough. I have tried to disagree respectfully and bow out of the discussion. I am not your mother nor need you respond to me as you might her. We just disagree and I don't find anything to push against in that. So- I'm the only DA here and clearly you more anxious leaning align together. I can accept that your adaptation is what it is but I don't want to engage about it. Is that not fair? I've offered explanation I was asked for. Now, I would like to respectfully refrain from further discussion. Not everyone has to agree or people please in any direction. I'm not hostile, simply not wanting to expend time and energy in this topic. I have other topics I am interested in here. So I am supposed to validate your point of view first in order for you to understand mine? And I am not allowed to have a conversation where we civilly disagree? I stated that my medication had not kicked in....I have a serotonin deficiency. I was simply providing some context from having 1. A serotonin deficiency, 2. HSP and 3. a very DA leaning mom. The combination of such has created some automatic responses. That was my point. I don't understand. I had already tried to bow out of the convo when you came and quoted me. I'm not trying to fight I just would like to not argue the point. I have already tried to civilly disagree. Am I supposed to continue a conversation I don't want to have? I do not understand this. I truly don't. I simply posted the article in attempt to clarify my views because there was confusion about them, and I chose an article written by a non-avoidant in order to try to do that in a way that was acceptable. I have other things on my mind that I am curious about and wanting to ask questions in another thread, as well as a big move in my personal life so I just want to drop this an focus on things more important to me. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2021 20:16:28 GMT
I've been wanting to log in and ask a question that has me sad, and really just want to open another discussion because I have my own things to explore. That's all.
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 21, 2021 20:21:20 GMT
I've been wanting to log in and ask a question that has me sad, and really just want to open another discussion because I have my own things to explore. That's all. I am sorry to hear that you are feeling sad...please go and address that...no issue. It was actually good for me to have this dialogue with you believe it or not.... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2021 20:26:47 GMT
I've been wanting to log in and ask a question that has me sad, and really just want to open another discussion because I have my own things to explore. That's all. I am sorry to hear that you are feeling sad...please go and address that...no issue. It was actually good for me to have this dialogue with you believe it or not.... Thank you. I'm glad if it was helpful. Honestly to me it's stressful but I appreciate the reach out to me. I don't want to come across as rude or unkind. I truly get confused about some of the interaction. I will start that thread about my question, it's been on my mind. Thanks again. |
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Oct 22, 2021 8:57:10 GMT
I agree with annieb that the next best move is to discuss during the next appointment how the team assignment went.
Yes, but what am I trying to say here is there will be no next appointment. Therapist said very clearly that we have to read these letters together and discuss if we can met our needs. And if we both say YES, we will proceed with therapy.
So, writing these letters and following DTR talk is in fact a commitment. Which she was panically avoiding last 3 years. And I suppose she is doing now the same, being unable to even start a therapy.
She still didn't wrote it, she mentioned two days ago that she will, but as far as I know she didn't. Yet she had time to watch few episodes of TV series till midnight. I am not pushing, not even asking. But I feel dissapointed and ignored.
Still, she proposed activities together for this weekend. Like nothing happened. That's craziness I experience for last three years.
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Post by anne12 on Oct 22, 2021 9:28:04 GMT
dexter You can ask her if she still wants to go to therapy with you You can also call the therapist and ask if there is another way you can work around this e.g. that you both write things down and then share it at the therapists office ect.
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 22, 2021 13:22:17 GMT
I agree with annieb that the next best move is to discuss during the next appointment how the team assignment went.
Yes, but what am I trying to say here is there will be no next appointment. Therapist said very clearly that we have to read these letters together and discuss if we can met our needs. And if we both say YES, we will proceed with therapy.
So, writing these letters and following DTR talk is in fact a commitment. Which she was panically avoiding last 3 years. And I suppose she is doing now the same, being unable to even start a therapy.
She still didn't wrote it, she mentioned two days ago that she will, but as far as I know she didn't. Yet she had time to watch few episodes of TV series till midnight. I am not pushing, not even asking. But I feel dissapointed and ignored.
Still, she proposed activities together for this weekend. Like nothing happened. That's craziness I experience for last three years.
I would suggest you avoid mind reading on her motives…all you know is she has not done the assigned work…you do not know the why. I do have a question for you though…why is it important that she complete this in a particular time other then it is your homework? Can you approach this from a more open perspective of trying to understand how difficult it may be for her and being there for her? |
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Oct 23, 2021 21:45:38 GMT
I am not reading her motives, I am using my experience with her I've gained through over 3 years of relationship.
I didn't push for her homework since few days, didn't even asked. Finally she did it yesterday. We've made a conclusion - I am meeting her needs (!) but she do not meet mine, and my needs are quite usual expactations in a relationship, like being accepted, touched, putting RL in first place, allowing me to be a caretaker, etc.
Bigger impact was not the list, but what happened today. Hell, it was a great day since breakfast till evening. It was fun and a great time together. She even called me "her husband" in a clothing store (she did it many times before, which was always quite awkward to me regarding the cirsumstances), referring to a kid as "our child" and a "family trip", holding my hand, etc. Late evening I was on a couch, under a blanket. She jumped in, and started to cuddle. We went for it. After having a good sex and mutual climax...BAM! She shut the door of intimacy and being here and now.
I asked.
What was the answer?
No, she was not overwhelmed by closeness. Sex just reminded her that all she can feel is just emptiness.
No, she was not looking for intimacy, I've started and I am just able to get her horny (c'mon, it was her to jump under the blanket).
We just can't even be friends, because if we are, I am looking for being close with her (sic!).
Total shutdown. I didn't discuss. No point at all.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 23, 2021 22:45:47 GMT
dexter, sometimes this happens. I've had it happen. FA ex wanted to commit to reconciling, flew us on vacation, ended it again as soon as the vacation was over. Said it wasn't any sort of overwhelm, essentially he cared but was fawning to overcompensate and try to force himself to feel how he "thought" he should but didn't actually feel. It's a very dysfunctional way of doing things, but it sometimes happens when people don't have healthy relationship tools. I am sorry you're getting hurt yet again, but I suspect that's approximately what's going on here. My FA ex has been in other relationships since but is single now because the issues are still his own and unaddressed. It wasn't really about me. He was attached but he repeats no matter who the partner is because he doesn't want to deal with the underlying inner turmoil. From all you've said about how she's been interacting with both her own individual therapy and couples therapy, she doesn't sound like she's ready for a stable romantic relationship yet so you're finding you won't get one from her no matter what you do. Even if or when you do everything right, it doesn't matter when it's not your problem to fix. Leaving it there after she shut down was the right call. Try to focus on your own therapy now even if she's not on the journey with you.
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Oct 25, 2021 10:33:43 GMT
Thank you alexandra for understanding on how do I feel. And I am happy and wish to congratulate you that you moved on from such unhealthy relationship. I know that when I left her for good, I will feel free, my pain will be relieved and I will start a process of self-rebuild. And moving on is the only way to fix myself in situation when she is not ready for working together.
It so damn hard to move on and leave everything behind (and I mean almost everything in matter of being a social person, because I put a really lot energy/considering them to be my family, which btw I know was unhealthy as well). Especially when rollercoaster (come here and go away) is still there. Yesterday (day after our sex and her shutdown) I was doing my hobby activity for whole day. It's an outdoor activity. It was raining and cold. And my gear broke. I was freezed, soaking wet, and tired to death. Not the best day. She called me at the evening when I was on my way back home. She insisted on coming to her place, for a hot meal and a bath. She kissed me, gave me a dinner, proposed a hot bath. There was care, kindness, touch. I was disoriented (but felt being...loved), so later I just asked "why?". She replied that she acts just normal, I had a bad day and she is happy that she can make me feel better. I didn't adressed that further, but such behaviours rollercoasted as well in the past, you know guys what I am talking about.
So, just imagine how disoriented I am. I should get used to it, but such instant change from Saturday situation to what happened day after is unusual to her.
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Post by doctora on Oct 25, 2021 17:49:46 GMT
... I suspect that's approximately what's going on here. My FA ex has been in other relationships since but is single now because the issues are still his own and unaddressed. It wasn't really about me. He was attached but he repeats no matter who the partner is because he doesn't want to deal with the underlying inner turmoil. From all you've said about how she's been interacting with both her own individual therapy and couples therapy, she doesn't sound like she's ready for a stable romantic relationship yet so you're finding you won't get one from her no matter what you do. Even if or when you do everything right, it doesn't matter when it's not your problem to fix. Leaving it there after she shut down was the right call. Try to focus on your own therapy now even if she's not on the journey with you. First of all, yes I agree, but THIS HERE is what I was talking about. This, in comparison to this, what you wrote before:
"it is an anxious-leaning person's pattern to speculate about whether or not a partner who things aren't work out well with would do better with someone else. This is because the anxious person is searching for the "silver bullet" answer to what can they do and change to "make" the other person meet their needs. Which goes back to a childhood need to find ways to stay attached to an adult caregiver who didn't consistently meet their needs or even necessarily treat them well. So if the person would be more compatible with a different partner, it's 1. perceived as a failing for the anxious person to flog themselves with and 2. understanding why they'd be compatible elsewhere is seen as a blueprint for what pretzel shape to bend into to keep the partner around and try and try again."
ALL i am trying to say is this:
I do not think it is an anxious-preoccupied behavior to think about the compatibility and whether another partner could fare better...especially after a breakup. Why? Because in the aftermath/post-mortem of the DA's shutdowns, breakups, whatever, and especially if the DA blamed/criticiized the partner during it, (or said something like, "I just want to find a nice person who accepts me" - what my DA ex said hundreds of times during deactivations, when he would perceive my having any needs or requests as me not accepting him...) it is completely natural to mull over whether their assessment/blame/criticism is correct (which most of the time it isn't) and whether another person would be able to do better, whether the "fault" indeed lies with you, or whether it is just "incompatibility" that you didn't see. It's a thought process that one most go through to realize that no, it's not me, I've tried my best, this person is incapable of having a healthy relationship, period. No silver bullet, nothing.
It is EXTREMELY FREEING to acknowledge that no, it's not about you, the partner, who can be secure, AP, FA, WHATEVER...it's about the avoidant and how they are unable to have a healthy relationship. That is literally all. It is freeing to acknowledge how their behavior and attachment insecurities - especially if they are extreme - are untenable in any relationship. Sure, if they become less avoidant, maybe they can make it work, who knows, who cares, because it's not how they present now.
It doesn't necessarily have to be about trying to figure out how to preztel yourself to match what they need. It's a much more complicated thought process and again, I think it has to do with becoming secure and taking stock of what has happened, and making your own assessment of the situation...after cleaning up your side of the fence, you realize that the relationship not working is not your doing, not your fault, this is obviously this person's issue, I do not have the power to control it or change it."
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Post by doctora on Oct 25, 2021 18:02:00 GMT
Thank you doctora for sharing your experience. It is very close to my own experience with my avoidant girlfriend. Yes, I think that you described it perfectly - they choose to be incompatible, especially when they have an urgent need to withdrawn. And it all comes to a "perfect partner" institution. A fantasy of being with someone perfectly compatible with them - and it means that there will be no issues, no flaws, no differences, no need to put an effort and work into relationship. "I don't need to be in a relationship in which I need to set boundaries or work on, that is unhealthy, it just doesn't work, we are incompatible".
That mechanism can be clearly seen during our couple therapy. After individual sessions we went to our first (and last I think) couple meeting. Therapist asked about our relationship, confronted us with our fear of abandonment and fear of intimacy. Naming it and pointing situations that we are both driven by our fears. She asked us to do a homework - 10 phrases for each other describing when we feel being loved by our partner. Than we should exchange these lists, and discuss if we are able to fulfill these needs. And if we agree, AND WE WILL BE FULLY COMMITED TO WORK ON RELATIONSHIP, NOT WITH ONE FOOT OUT OF THE DOOR, we should come back to her to start a therapy.
When we came back home I only asked if she is going to write down our homework (because I knew how she can ignore and neglect any communication regarding our relationship), and she replied - yes I will. Those few days after the couple therapy was OK, we both were calm, nice to each other, close and intimate. At Sunday I was away, she got plenty of time so Monday morning I asked if she have done our homework. No, she did not. Day after I started to feel anxious, angry and I acted out - she had a week to just write 10 phrases, and she was unable to do it, despite having a plenty of free time to spend it watching TV series, etc. I turned into angry mode mixed with anxiety, which is a terrible feeling for me. I started protest behaviours, ignoring her presence and playing with kid instead. Yesterday evening we had a discussion, unfortunately with anger on both sides, and with her concentrating on me ignoring her and putting that issue in a center of the conflict.
She is running away. Running away when commitment is needed. When things get to serious, when she needs to confront her own fears. She even didn't acknowledged the fact that therapist told us that we both need to commit to relationship to continue therapy. She even didn't interpret therapist words as me being anxious and her being avoidant, despite the therapist naming few times fear of intimacy, dependency and commitment, when discussing her dismissal behaviours and states of anxiety when we are getting close.
Finally, during our discussion, she said that I am pushing her and she did not declared any commitment, she just wanted to know what is her attachment style and if it affects her relationships. She just shut down, respond my questions with silence, so I just left home.
I find here a paradox. How an avoidant can be fully commited to a relationship in the beggining of a therapy, if a commitment and shutting the door behind is one of her biggest and unconscious fears?
I have to go back to work in a second but I guess I just wanted to say, although annieb at first thought you were being manipulative with her, I read this completely differently...I have gone through something VERY similar with my ex. This resonates with me. It's disorienting when someone is super enthusiastic about therapy and doing all the necessary exercises, and you agree to something, and then they don't do it. Of COURSE you are going to get angry. Thais Gibson said something that blew my mind in her course about boundaries - boundary violations are not just things that happened that weren't supposed to. They are also things that were supposed to happen but didn't. In this way, you can feel more validated about angry about broken promises, about disappointments in your DA's behavior and inconsistency, about your DA running away when you both agreed to do the homework. If you see her everyday, you're going to know whether she did it or not. Also, you could probably sense she hadn't. So no, I don't think it was weird or manipulative that you asked whether she had done it. You asked, how can an avoidant be fully committed to a relationship in the beginning of therapy, or to the therapy, and then waiver afterward or when he/she actually has to do some work? WELL....they just can. That's the paradox of their entire attachment style, that's the sad part about it. And if they are less evolved, man, forget about it...I guess if they have some awareness of it they can do some owrk, but the DOING of the work is entirely different than agreeing to it. Remember, in THEORY they want connection and a relationship with you, but the actual work may be too uncomfortable for them to actually do it.
One last thing - what will the last straw for YOU look like? How many more times are you willing to do this?
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 26, 2021 3:58:57 GMT
... I suspect that's approximately what's going on here. My FA ex has been in other relationships since but is single now because the issues are still his own and unaddressed. It wasn't really about me. He was attached but he repeats no matter who the partner is because he doesn't want to deal with the underlying inner turmoil. From all you've said about how she's been interacting with both her own individual therapy and couples therapy, she doesn't sound like she's ready for a stable romantic relationship yet so you're finding you won't get one from her no matter what you do. Even if or when you do everything right, it doesn't matter when it's not your problem to fix. Leaving it there after she shut down was the right call. Try to focus on your own therapy now even if she's not on the journey with you. First of all, yes I agree, but THIS HERE is what I was talking about. This, in comparison to this, what you wrote before:
"it is an anxious-leaning person's pattern to speculate about whether or not a partner who things aren't work out well with would do better with someone else. This is because the anxious person is searching for the "silver bullet" answer to what can they do and change to "make" the other person meet their needs. Which goes back to a childhood need to find ways to stay attached to an adult caregiver who didn't consistently meet their needs or even necessarily treat them well. So if the person would be more compatible with a different partner, it's 1. perceived as a failing for the anxious person to flog themselves with and 2. understanding why they'd be compatible elsewhere is seen as a blueprint for what pretzel shape to bend into to keep the partner around and try and try again."
ALL i am trying to say is this:
I do not think it is an anxious-preoccupied behavior to think about the compatibility and whether another partner could fare better...especially after a breakup. Why? Because in the aftermath/post-mortem of the DA's shutdowns, breakups, whatever, and especially if the DA blamed/criticiized the partner during it, (or said something like, "I just want to find a nice person who accepts me" - what my DA ex said hundreds of times during deactivations, when he would perceive my having any needs or requests as me not accepting him...) it is completely natural to mull over whether their assessment/blame/criticism is correct (which most of the time it isn't) and whether another person would be able to do better, whether the "fault" indeed lies with you, or whether it is just "incompatibility" that you didn't see. It's a thought process that one most go through to realize that no, it's not me, I've tried my best, this person is incapable of having a healthy relationship, period. No silver bullet, nothing.
It is EXTREMELY FREEING to acknowledge that no, it's not about you, the partner, who can be secure, AP, FA, WHATEVER...it's about the avoidant and how they are unable to have a healthy relationship. That is literally all. It is freeing to acknowledge how their behavior and attachment insecurities - especially if they are extreme - are untenable in any relationship. Sure, if they become less avoidant, maybe they can make it work, who knows, who cares, because it's not how they present now.
It doesn't necessarily have to be about trying to figure out how to preztel yourself to match what they need. It's a much more complicated thought process and again, I think it has to do with becoming secure and taking stock of what has happened, and making your own assessment of the situation...after cleaning up your side of the fence, you realize that the relationship not working is not your doing, not your fault, this is obviously this person's issue, I do not have the power to control it or change it."
I don’t think you are speaking to all AP attached individuals with your statement above…there have been plenty of people…myself included who found these boards due to a desire to understand why our ex avoidant partner is doing better with the next partner. And it certainly did for me at least feel like losing him was the same as it would be to lose my mom. I remember very well..in fact..it is documented in my earliest posts….trying to figure out how I could win him back. It was a very automatic response that had nothing to do with how feasible it was or whether he was deserving of such pedestal placing. Looking back on it…it had everything to do with my inability to self regulate and sensing in him a familiar pattern from my childhood…the..come close but not too close…the move away but not too far that I experienced from my mom. |
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dexter
Junior Member
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Post by dexter on Oct 26, 2021 12:00:52 GMT
"I just want to find a nice person who accepts me" - what my DA ex said hundreds of times during deactivations, when he would perceive my having any needs or requests as me not accepting him...
Wow. I can hear exactly same words from her everytime we talk about issues. And I had the same conclusion, because it was her respond to me communicating about my needs (which, other time, she admits are just usual in relationship). She even put that phrase in our homework "when I feel being loved" list. And it was five out of ten phrases, just putted in other words/situations.
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