dexter
Junior Member
Posts: 98
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Post by dexter on Aug 31, 2021 14:46:12 GMT
Hi, I would like to share story with typical AP/DA dance. I am from Europe, english is not my primary language, so please excuse me for any lingua mistakes that can occur. My background story: Generally secure male (41) with AP tendencies. First relationship was secure. Six years, living with each other, get engaged. Then I was cheated and it almost killed me. Recovery took a year. Few next relationships was driven by my fear of intimacy. I didn't act as a typical avoidant, but just couldn't engage and eventually act dismissively. Secure girls dumped me, which turned me into AP occasionaly after split. Than, in my early 30's I started relationship with friend of mine. No sparks, but good flow, same interests, etc. We've stayed for 5 years, but there was a lack of arousal, intimacy, passion. I've broke it. Now I think she was typical DA and I gave her a tons of space and didn't crave for intimacy. Than I've started a therapy, because I understood I have some kind of fear of intimacy. Her background story: DA female (41). Raised by narcissistic mother which dumped her father when she was infant. She had three long term relationships. Each of them lasts no more than 3 years. For over 10 years she had a "perfect partner", which was real, but rejected her, was completely unavailable. In every relationship that "phantom" was a shadow, that I am sure didn't help her to love actual partner. Her dynamic in relationships was typical for a DA. Started to deactivate 6 to 12 months from first date. Secure guys left her, unable to reach intimacy with her. On of them was dumped, because he chose to stay with her and resign with all his needs (no sex for 2 years...). After all she fall in love with married guy, and she was completely unaware of this for 2 years. It's hard to believe, but I know that is true from friends of her and her family. I think that her DA, need to keep distance, feeling of omnipresence of a partner, believing in "special connection" help that a lot. They was dating occasionally, he was unavailable on the phone most of the time, and it suited her perfectly. After two years she got pregnant. And than things came out. She was shocked, but he promised her that he will leave family, but need time. Of course it didn't happened, he would prefer polyamory, even told that loud. She left him. One year after that, our story begins. Our story: We've met April 2018 on a party. We switched emails. I kept things slowly, had a lot of work, being abroad for some time. I May we've started to meet each other on a dinners. Despite I saw a great interest form her side, I still kept it slow. Being aware of my fear of intimacy and trying to think responsible - she had a 2 year old boy. I took one more month when we shared a first kiss and it was an earthquake for both of us. Sex was insane (well...AP/DA...), I felt very attracted to her. And we had same beliefs, intellectual talks, interests, dreams for future. After just two weeks I've met her child. After four weeks we went for a vacation (with her child). I accepted that little boy and now he is very important to me, I am stepdad to him and he loves me much. I felt good having this potential family. After vacation she invited me to live with her, and I was bit shocked of her moving things so fast! But within a month we lived together. Happy family with prospects. It lasted for just 4 months. Than things began to crack. Biological father step in and showed himself as "now a great father" (which was a lie, what she realised year later), and he started to visit his son three times a week. And I was literally forced to stay away from home for that time. I set boundaries. But she made me feel guilty that I am immature, that baby needs father, etc. OK. But it triggered my AP. Conflicts arose with her deactivating more and more. Typical strategies. I felt more frustrated. Than just left that relationship, with huge anxiety and anger. I tried to convince myself to stay in no contact, but I've missed her and the boy as well. I've contacted her a month after split, to "clean up the mess and shake hands like friends" after all that anger. Of course it was manipulative and I was lying to myself that time. AP all the way. My goodness, she was a different person, she was back with all her sympathy, kindness and good energy. I saw she missed me. We slowly and gently reconnected. But never again reconnected fully. I was one foot in her house, on in mine. That distance on her terms was OK for her, but not for me. It frustrated me, triggered again my AP. And after next few months she admitted her phantom ex institution - father of her child of course. How deep connection it was, how he understood her without words, how he did not expect ANYTHING form her (well, just typical for married guy, isn't it?, blah blah. I am sure that had no affair anymore, I was very AP so I've checked her phone, and knew via their conversation that she rejected him because he was a liar and dissapointed her. So I understood why he stopped visiting his son so often. All he was after was she. She now thinks he's a psychopath. I left. But we had regular contact, because I had a strong bond with her child (which is calling us "parents"). She tried to reach me, but I was blind to it. At least I tried. For a month. We reconnected again. Next year it was she that dumped me two times. Reason: incompatibility. First time we reconnected two weeks after split. Last time lasts for a two months already, but we have contact and...recently discovered attachment theory. Her deactivating strategies: 1. Being preoccupied with everything but relationship. She even went to bed with child and slept 12hrs when she was in deactivation phase. 2. Putting energy to her demanding narcissistic mother, friends (shallow relationships). 3. Shutting down when I was demanding. 4. Punishing me for a wrong communication of my needs, too demanding, too aggresive, etc. 5. Cutting communication 6. Focusing on my flaws (sometimes it was a comedy) 7. Avoiding sex and physical intimacy 8. Hardly planned anything with me 9. Focusing a lot on a child. I love him so much, but we as a couple should have our own space. 10. Being aggresive when I dissapointed her in a daily subjects. 11. Eventually get thoughts of incompatibility.
And lot more. Even non-relationship traits of DA occurs, like people pleasing, looking for shallow connectivity with people (needs them but stays on a prope level), difficulties on decisions that are emotional (and mostly she does nothing, just wait and see), etc.
That dance lasted for 3,5 years. Every time she deactivated when there was too much commitment, too much intimacy, when I started to talk to live together as a full family. Finally we split in July, just after a two week holidays. And yes...it was intimate, but last days we had few conflicts, which escalated quickly. So, we're incompatible and that's it. She shut communication, felt relieved, happy, etc. I was meeting her child every week (i just can't leave him, he is 5 yrs old and treat me like his father - and biological one show little interest). Accepted things, was just tired, but very anxious as well. Suddenly in mid August she told me that she watched a podcast about attachment styles and she is wondering if that is incompatibility or she is DA and just uncapable of commitment, dependecy and intimacy. And...her attitude towards me changed. Again I sam that kind and nice person. I found the Free to Attach page on the web. And THAT HIT ME TOTALLY! What a great page. Everything now seemed so clear to me. I even found a therapist that specialised in att theory, went for a consultation and he said that we both, and she especially, fits perfectly! What's more, it was a relief for me. I stopped to blame her, stopped to blame myself. Had again warm feelings towards her, compassion and understood what she is struggling with and how hard it is to overcome these fears. Few days later we put a child to sleep and had a long talk till midnight. I told her everything I learn about AP/DA, show her deactivating strategies on examples, tried to be compassionate and calm. Well...she build her walls of repression and denial, describing it just incompatibility. And that if she do not know for almost three years if she loves me (it changed during that time) that for sure she is not. OK, I've said. That is my own path. Good bye. Next day (it was last sunday) I was shocked to received email from her, that when I left she read some Free to Attach, and she must say that she agrees totally. I replied "good for you, I'happy about it, explore it further...". Now we have our short no contact time, and probably we will see each other again on Saturday. So, I know that probably it would be best for both of us to split with the knowledge we have. I think I do not put her on pedestal, I know her flaws and accept them, but when she is not deactivated she is one of the most interesting, kind person. And we are both very attracted sexually, still after 3 years. I loved that feeling that I belong. I love that little boy, he is so much to me. And he loves me. So I would like to try. But I've set a boundary and she is aware of that - she need to work as I need to. What scares me a bit that she attends her own therapy. But it is literally a surface-therapy. Her therapist told her for example that if she feels after conflict that she can't even touch me, than her body tells her I am not a suitable person fo her. Or that shee needs to work on her independency in life, because that she is dependent on me in daily things (shopping, car maintenance, getting boy to preschool, generally hepling her) can be a key factor that she can't left me. That she can be afraid of being alone with a child. That is complete bullshit, because she's very independent and competent in life, being succesful PhD and mother. And it is contrary to what DA should work on. Don't you think? What's optimistic, she agreed we should go to an att theory specialist for a consultation. But I want to take things slowly. I want her process everything. I think best solution would a month of no contact to access her feelings fully again and feel a loss of me. That is not a manipulation, I see it as a catalyst for a change in her beliefs. But I can't do that. I can't leave my boy. So maybe put eveything on a table, try to break that dance. When I realised her DA and my AP I am much more calm, and have no frustration or anger towards her. I communicate with her differently. No criticism, compassion, space. Maybe stay on that path and show her that I fully accept her? That I greet her vulnerability when it shows up? Thanks for reading such a huge post. Best Regards. |
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 31, 2021 15:14:12 GMT
Hi and welcome…your post is very long and I am work so I can’t commit the time needed to read it now but wanted to welcome you.
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Post by virusbkk on Aug 31, 2021 17:15:44 GMT
I am not in your shoes, so I can't begin to understand the diffuse emotions that you feel, but I can offer you some brutal outside perspective.
This DA woman has been sucking the life force out of you for more than three years and you appear to be stuck in the classic anxious-avoidant dance.
A woman at this age is mostly set in her ways, and will be very resistant to change, nor should it be your responsibility to change her or 'fix' her - which is what you are trying to do.
Her self-awareness is probably temporary and it is likely she will revert back to her old patterns.
And do not let your emotional attachment to her child cloud your judgement for even a second.
He is not your biological offspring, period.
And what happens when the deadbeat dad comes back into the picture again?
Get yourself out of this cluster**** asap.
You've been dumped at least twice and are still still willing to go back. Have some self-respect.
Are you familiar with escalation of commitment?
It is a human behavior pattern where somebody facing increasingly negative outcomes from a decision, action, or investment nevertheless continues the behavior instead of altering course.
You need to alter course immediately and stop investing further in this relationship.
Good luck!
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 31, 2021 18:39:37 GMT
Hi, I would like to share story with typical AP/DA dance. I am from Europe, english is not my primary language, so please excuse me for any lingua mistakes that can occur. My background story: Generally secure male (41) with AP tendencies. First relationship was secure. Six years, living with each other, get engaged. Then I was cheated and it almost killed me. Recovery took a year. Few next relationships was driven by my fear of intimacy. I didn't act as a typical avoidant, but just couldn't engage and eventually act dismissively. Secure girls dumped me, which turned me into AP occasionaly after split. Than, in my early 30's I started relationship with friend of mine. No sparks, but good flow, same interests, etc. We've stayed for 5 years, but there was a lack of arousal, intimacy, passion. I've broke it. Now I think she was typical DA and I gave her a tons of space and didn't crave for intimacy. Than I've started a therapy, because I understood I have some kind of fear of intimacy. Her background story: DA female (41). Raised by narcissistic mother which dumped her father when she was infant. She had three long term relationships. Each of them lasts no more than 3 years. For over 10 years she had a "perfect partner", which was real, but rejected her, was completely unavailable. In every relationship that "phantom" was a shadow, that I am sure didn't help her to love actual partner. Her dynamic in relationships was typical for a DA. Started to deactivate 6 to 12 months from first date. Secure guys left her, unable to reach intimacy with her. On of them was dumped, because he chose to stay with her and resign with all his needs (no sex for 2 years...). After all she fall in love with married guy, and she was completely unaware of this for 2 years. It's hard to believe, but I know that is true from friends of her and her family. I think that her DA, need to keep distance, feeling of omnipresence of a partner, believing in "special connection" help that a lot. They was dating occasionally, he was unavailable on the phone most of the time, and it suited her perfectly. After two years she got pregnant. And than things came out. She was shocked, but he promised her that he will leave family, but need time. Of course it didn't happened, he would prefer polyamory, even told that loud. She left him. One year after that, our story begins. Our story: We've met April 2018 on a party. We switched emails. I kept things slowly, had a lot of work, being abroad for some time. I May we've started to meet each other on a dinners. Despite I saw a great interest form her side, I still kept it slow. Being aware of my fear of intimacy and trying to think responsible - she had a 2 year old boy. I took one more month when we shared a first kiss and it was an earthquake for both of us. Sex was insane (well...AP/DA...), I felt very attracted to her. And we had same beliefs, intellectual talks, interests, dreams for future. After just two weeks I've met her child. After four weeks we went for a vacation (with her child). I accepted that little boy and now he is very important to me, I am stepdad to him and he loves me much. I felt good having this potential family. After vacation she invited me to live with her, and I was bit shocked of her moving things so fast! But within a month we lived together. Happy family with prospects. It lasted for just 4 months. Than things began to crack. Biological father step in and showed himself as "now a great father" (which was a lie, what she realised year later), and he started to visit his son three times a week. And I was literally forced to stay away from home for that time. I set boundaries. But she made me feel guilty that I am immature, that baby needs father, etc. OK. But it triggered my AP. Conflicts arose with her deactivating more and more. Typical strategies. I felt more frustrated. Than just left that relationship, with huge anxiety and anger. I tried to convince myself to stay in no contact, but I've missed her and the boy as well. I've contacted her a month after split, to "clean up the mess and shake hands like friends" after all that anger. Of course it was manipulative and I was lying to myself that time. AP all the way. My goodness, she was a different person, she was back with all her sympathy, kindness and good energy. I saw she missed me. We slowly and gently reconnected. But never again reconnected fully. I was one foot in her house, on in mine. That distance on her terms was OK for her, but not for me. It frustrated me, triggered again my AP. And after next few months she admitted her phantom ex institution - father of her child of course. How deep connection it was, how he understood her without words, how he did not expect ANYTHING form her (well, just typical for married guy, isn't it?, blah blah. I am sure that had no affair anymore, I was very AP so I've checked her phone, and knew via their conversation that she rejected him because he was a liar and dissapointed her. So I understood why he stopped visiting his son so often. All he was after was she. She now thinks he's a psychopath. I left. But we had regular contact, because I had a strong bond with her child (which is calling us "parents"). She tried to reach me, but I was blind to it. At least I tried. For a month. We reconnected again. Next year it was she that dumped me two times. Reason: incompatibility. First time we reconnected two weeks after split. Last time lasts for a two months already, but we have contact and...recently discovered attachment theory. Her deactivating strategies: 1. Being preoccupied with everything but relationship. She even went to bed with child and slept 12hrs when she was in deactivation phase. 2. Putting energy to her demanding narcissistic mother, friends (shallow relationships). 3. Shutting down when I was demanding. 4. Punishing me for a wrong communication of my needs, too demanding, too aggresive, etc. 5. Cutting communication 6. Focusing on my flaws (sometimes it was a comedy) 7. Avoiding sex and physical intimacy 8. Hardly planned anything with me 9. Focusing a lot on a child. I love him so much, but we as a couple should have our own space. 10. Being aggresive when I dissapointed her in a daily subjects. 11. Eventually get thoughts of incompatibility.
And lot more. Even non-relationship traits of DA occurs, like people pleasing, looking for shallow connectivity with people (needs them but stays on a prope level), difficulties on decisions that are emotional (and mostly she does nothing, just wait and see), etc.
That dance lasted for 3,5 years. Every time she deactivated when there was too much commitment, too much intimacy, when I started to talk to live together as a full family. Finally we split in July, just after a two week holidays. And yes...it was intimate, but last days we had few conflicts, which escalated quickly. So, we're incompatible and that's it. She shut communication, felt relieved, happy, etc. I was meeting her child every week (i just can't leave him, he is 5 yrs old and treat me like his father - and biological one show little interest). Accepted things, was just tired, but very anxious as well. Suddenly in mid August she told me that she watched a podcast about attachment styles and she is wondering if that is incompatibility or she is DA and just uncapable of commitment, dependecy and intimacy. And...her attitude towards me changed. Again I sam that kind and nice person. I found the Free to Attach page on the web. And THAT HIT ME TOTALLY! What a great page. Everything now seemed so clear to me. I even found a therapist that specialised in att theory, went for a consultation and he said that we both, and she especially, fits perfectly! What's more, it was a relief for me. I stopped to blame her, stopped to blame myself. Had again warm feelings towards her, compassion and understood what she is struggling with and how hard it is to overcome these fears. Few days later we put a child to sleep and had a long talk till midnight. I told her everything I learn about AP/DA, show her deactivating strategies on examples, tried to be compassionate and calm. Well...she build her walls of repression and denial, describing it just incompatibility. And that if she do not know for almost three years if she loves me (it changed during that time) that for sure she is not. OK, I've said. That is my own path. Good bye. Next day (it was last sunday) I was shocked to received email from her, that when I left she read some Free to Attach, and she must say that she agrees totally. I replied "good for you, I'happy about it, explore it further...". Now we have our short no contact time, and probably we will see each other again on Saturday. So, I know that probably it would be best for both of us to split with the knowledge we have. I think I do not put her on pedestal, I know her flaws and accept them, but when she is not deactivated she is one of the most interesting, kind person. And we are both very attracted sexually, still after 3 years. I loved that feeling that I belong. I love that little boy, he is so much to me. And he loves me. So I would like to try. But I've set a boundary and she is aware of that - she need to work as I need to. What scares me a bit that she attends her own therapy. But it is literally a surface-therapy. Her therapist told her for example that if she feels after conflict that she can't even touch me, than her body tells her I am not a suitable person fo her. Or that shee needs to work on her independency in life, because that she is dependent on me in daily things (shopping, car maintenance, getting boy to preschool, generally hepling her) can be a key factor that she can't left me. That she can be afraid of being alone with a child. That is complete bullshit, because she's very independent and competent in life, being succesful PhD and mother. And it is contrary to what DA should work on. Don't you think? What's optimistic, she agreed we should go to an att theory specialist for a consultation. But I want to take things slowly. I want her process everything. I think best solution would a month of no contact to access her feelings fully again and feel a loss of me. That is not a manipulation, I see it as a catalyst for a change in her beliefs. But I can't do that. I can't leave my boy. So maybe put eveything on a table, try to break that dance. When I realised her DA and my AP I am much more calm, and have no frustration or anger towards her. I communicate with her differently. No criticism, compassion, space. Maybe stay on that path and show her that I fully accept her? That I greet her vulnerability when it shows up? Thanks for reading such a huge post. Best Regards. So a couple of thoughts…the whole rushing forward and pulling back is more of an FA move I think then a DA move. There must have been times you did not feel triggered AP and that is likely when she made those movements towards you. I am an FA and I have rushed in relationships hoping to gain some sense of security from a committed relationship. Because the guys I have dated have always been avoidant leaning FAs…I never truly experienced the avoidant side….but I assume that having her ex come back into the picture was probably unexpected and who knows the dynamic that they have…..while I agree her communication and reassurance could have been better….I agree with her comment that if her ex wants to see his children, it is probably best for you to not be around. Also, if he is a psychopath…he is not someone you want to get on the bad side of. i can’t even imagine what she must have gone though being a child of a narcissist…..I dated 2 and the lack of empathy was extremely painful. Consider for a moment that this woman is all she has known to learn how to be a woman, how to be in relationships etc. I am not surprised at the fact that her friendships may be superficial as she likely learned that from her mom. ithink it is great she has a therapist who is working on her codependent issues. Afterall…a relationship should be 2 people who are choosing to be with each other. I would like to change the conversation around…..you said she activated AP in you…but that is not truly the case….you would have had AP tendencies before you got involved with her….and I would encourage to explore that a bit further. Focusing on her attachment wounds won’t really move the needle because she needs to address her own wounding. But I think it would be beneficial to ask yourself…if nothing changes…do you still want to date her? Knowing her history, her mother, the fact that she swings between the pursuer and distanced and how that has made you feel? If the answer is no…then you really have your answer on next steps. |
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Post by alexandra on Aug 31, 2021 18:40:04 GMT
Hi dexter. I'm sorry you're going through this, though it's a pretty typical anxious/avoidant story so you'll be able to find comparable experiences here. While I do not agree that people should be written off as set in their ways due to age at all (this is a choice and has more to do with personality traits and can get further bogged down by getting stuck unable to fully emotionally process anything in a healthy way due to insecure attachment), I do agree that you should leave this situation behind. Attachment issues are very complicated and deep and generally take years to overcome -- and it requires the internal motivation to want to overcome for yourself (nothing to do with a romantic partner, changing for a partner doesn't work or stick, it's always for yourself). Insecure attachment develops as a trauma response, as you yourself have experienced in your own history, and it needs to be untangled, addressed, and healed. Maybe she'll get there, maybe she won't, but you can't control her or her process in any way and shouldn't wait around to find out. Especially since it's statistically unlikely... I've read research that shows only 25% of people ever switch attachment styles in any direction. Though I'm sure this is far more doable if you're even aware of attachment styles (which most people are not) and want to address it. I used to be AP and have been in your shoes. Your focus is almost entirely on her and how to steer her in hopes she'll change and reconnect and what you can do to enable that outcome. That's typical AP fear of abandonment reactions, and it's counter-intuitively less painful to focus on her and her issues than dealing with your own, because you're used to longing and feeling that overwhelm and it is easier to distract yourself from an even deeper internal pain of reconnecting with yourself (and broaching your own abandonment issues). But that's what needs to be done here. You both need several months or more of time and space apart so that you don't trigger each other and get individual help. FWIW, I believe she's fearful avoidant. DA don't really connect and reconnect and reconnect. They give up and shut down and that's that, whereas FA are driven both by fear of engulfment AND fear of abandonment, so they have a pattern of come here no too close go away no too far reconnect come here no too close etc... and usually when they come back they downgrade the commitment, perhaps just trying to be "friends," because their nervous systems can't handle more than that and they're trying to see if distance will re-regulate them and make the feelings tolerable. They're generally always ambivalent about anyone who isn't more avoidant than them, which triggers their AP side and leaves them with fantasy connections like staying attached to a phantom ex. While it's also counter-intuitive to leave because your AP is searching for a way to reconnect and stop your abandonment anxiety, the only long-term way to deal with this is pause the connection and focus on yourself, with distance so that she isn't triggering you while you clean up your side of the street. Nothing you wrote reflects that you have secure attachment, and being AP means you too are emotionally unavailable, since all insecure attachers are whether it's conscious or not. You've already highlighted that being cheated on changed you, since you now clearly don't trust yourself, so you know where to start. |
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 31, 2021 18:45:42 GMT
I am not in your shoes, so I can't begin to understand the diffuse emotions that you feel, but I can offer you some brutal outside perspective. This DA woman has been sucking the life force out of you for more than three years and you appear to be stuck in the classic anxious-avoidant dance. A woman at this age is mostly set in her ways, and will be very resistant to change, nor should it be your responsibility to change her or 'fix' her - which is what you are trying to do. Her self-awareness is probably temporary and it is likely she will revert back to her old patterns. And do not let your emotional attachment to her child cloud your judgement for even a second. He is not your biological offspring, period. And what happens when the deadbeat dad comes back into the picture again? Get yourself out of this cluster**** asap. You've been dumped at least twice and are still still willing to go back. Have some self-respect. Are you familiar with escalation of commitment? It is a human behavior pattern where somebody facing increasingly negative outcomes from a decision, action, or investment nevertheless continues the behavior instead of altering course. You need to alter course immediately and stop investing further in this relationship. Good luck! Hi there Just want to respond to this because I disagree with your assessment. She is displaying classic FA (not DA) behaviors….and she isn’t sucking him dry…when did insecurely attached individuals become vampires? When did he stop having a choice in whether he participated or not? He certainly can choose to determine now if it makes sense for him…but he has a role in this dynamic that would benefit him looking into. |
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Post by virusbkk on Sept 1, 2021 1:34:33 GMT
I am not in your shoes, so I can't begin to understand the diffuse emotions that you feel, but I can offer you some brutal outside perspective. This DA woman has been sucking the life force out of you for more than three years and you appear to be stuck in the classic anxious-avoidant dance. A woman at this age is mostly set in her ways, and will be very resistant to change, nor should it be your responsibility to change her or 'fix' her - which is what you are trying to do. Her self-awareness is probably temporary and it is likely she will revert back to her old patterns. And do not let your emotional attachment to her child cloud your judgement for even a second. He is not your biological offspring, period. And what happens when the deadbeat dad comes back into the picture again? Get yourself out of this cluster**** asap. You've been dumped at least twice and are still still willing to go back. Have some self-respect. Are you familiar with escalation of commitment? It is a human behavior pattern where somebody facing increasingly negative outcomes from a decision, action, or investment nevertheless continues the behavior instead of altering course. You need to alter course immediately and stop investing further in this relationship. Good luck! Hi there Just want to respond to this because I disagree with your assessment. She is displaying classic FA (not DA) behaviors….and she isn’t sucking him dry…when did insecurely attached individuals become vampires? When did he stop having a choice in whether he participated or not? He certainly can choose to determine now if it makes sense for him…but he has a role in this dynamic that would benefit him looking into. Agree with the assessment that this is most likely FA behavior. She is absolutely sucking him dry and her insecure attachment has a part to play in it. Although as alexandra correctly pointed out, this is probably more due to her personality traits than anything else. Still,personality traits influence attachment style and vice-versa. He does have a choice, and judging by the way he writes, he has chosen to be a 'white knight'. She is broken in many ways, and he should not take it upon himself to fix her or save her. He needs to extricate himself from the situation asap and focus on his own recovery. |
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dexter
Junior Member
Posts: 98
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Post by dexter on Sept 1, 2021 12:42:07 GMT
Thank you so much for your answers! It's been hitting me and making me bit confused.
First of all, to be honest I didn't think of her as an FA. Every description of her behaviour and our dynamics looked clearly like typical DA and AP, according to Free to Attach website, Briana Macwilliam and Thais youtube videos. As far as I understand FA, they can switch to anxious, so they know both avoidant and anxious worlds. Anxiety relating to relationship is unknown to her. She feels strong on braking up and feels literally nothing at all. Stonewalling herself. And she didn't reach out for any of her past relationships. But I do not agree DA do not reach out, especially in DA/AP relationship. She wasn't doing it directly after leaving me. Just subtle signals, and I knew there is a space for intimacy again. And we slowly reconnect, she felt bond with me and we were sexually attracted (she says she was never so attracted to someone, me too). Two times I left her, cutting everything. I saw her fear of abandonment, typical but unconscius for a DA. She was really frightened. Event then she didn't reach me. I did it, but when we met, there was no need to slowly make things work again on the path to intimacy - she was very hot, open and passionate, like all of her fears gone away.
I believe that every attachment style is flexible, it has its own dynamics which depends on partner, circumstances, etc. And I believe she is not a full-blown DA, because I saw her behaviour during first phase of our relationship, and during times when I gave her space and wasn't demanding (felt more secured, but eventually she triggered me again).
My AP is a problem. I do trigger her, and she does trigger me a lot. I have days of huge anxiety and focusing only on her. Which is bit awkward for me, because I love my work, friends, hobby, and time alone. I even have sometimes signs of limerency, which I consider unhealthy and not related to love itself. I feel "calm love" with compassion, understanding, bonds, and all that warm feelings toward her when I am on my more secure side. AP turns that love into anxiety-driven obssesion. And I know that and been in a therapy at att specialist. Trying to focus on myself, my inner child, my own feelings, taking care of myself. I realise it is tough under circumstances when we still talk about reconcilliation - there is hope tempting me. My mood is mostly dependent on her feelings towards me, how she sees me or, recently, if she realises her avoidancy. So, I am fully aware and I know I have my job to be done.
We see each other today. She wants to talk in the evening, and before that I am taking her boy to a pool (one of our weekly rituals).
She called me in the morning to discuss about "our" (well, I recognise it that way, and she verbalize it that way...) boy's first day in preschool, new group and teacher, etc. Then she started discussion about our relationship. Well, again I felt her repressing and denying. That maybe she is avoidant, but her past relations were different (that is untrue, she acted same way, but guys were secure or silently resigned with their needs until dumped) and I was the only person that turn her so avoidant, because I was demanding like a child, and she has one. Well. I think that I demanded intimacy that I didn't need to ask for in any relationship I was before. And I could acknowledge that someone do not love me - but it was consistent. And she was so unconsistent in her feelings and closeness during past two years. I felt very annoyed and dissapointed on her statement, but managed to just accept her words without arguing. I know I can't fix her, it's her job, and you guys reminded me with this just in time! She is even so inconsistent about herself...So you guys here might be 100% right - it is very hard to change old patterns and beliefs, because for DA they are so comfortable. They even feel stronger than other people (and they look like, but that's illusion), and sometimes it can give them a sense of superiority, especially when they have narcissistic traits. She does not have, she escapes to perfectionism ("I take care of myself, so I do not need anyone").
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2021 12:54:13 GMT
It isnt your job to fix her, correct. I think it's a good idea to try to recognize your own sense of superiority in trying to, or thinking that you could somehow lead the way. AP trying to show a DA all that is wrong with them is like the blind leading the blind in my opinion. I'm sure she can't take you seriously because she sees your own insecurity. You can't give away what you haven't got. You can make your own path to secure without her and really you're obliged to yourself to do so. Best of luck and breakups hurt but it's part of the necessary process of changing dysfunctional patterns in yourself.
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 1, 2021 13:00:17 GMT
It isnt your job to fix her, correct. I think it's a good idea to try to recognize your own sense of superiority in trying to, or thinking that you could somehow lead the way. AP trying to show a DA all that is wrong with them is like the blind leading the blind in my opinion. I'm sure she can't take you seriously because she sees your own insecurity. You can't give away what you haven't got. You can make your own path to secure without her and really you're obliged to yourself to do so. Best of luck and breakups hurt but it's part of the necessary process of changing dysfunctional patterns in yourself.
Good point.
But I must say that I acted securely in that relationship. She admitted that on her own. And that was a time when things went pretty well. Until request for commitment, for example my (very) subtle proposal of moving in to her home again. Than she literally sabotaged our relationship, closeness. My dynamic was to take it easy, but all those deactivation strategies cumulated my frustration and I was lower and lower on my secure level. After three years almost every rejection (true or not!) turned me AP.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2021 13:21:27 GMT
It isnt your job to fix her, correct. I think it's a good idea to try to recognize your own sense of superiority in trying to, or thinking that you could somehow lead the way. AP trying to show a DA all that is wrong with them is like the blind leading the blind in my opinion. I'm sure she can't take you seriously because she sees your own insecurity. You can't give away what you haven't got. You can make your own path to secure without her and really you're obliged to yourself to do so. Best of luck and breakups hurt but it's part of the necessary process of changing dysfunctional patterns in yourself.
Good point.
But I must say that I acted securely in that relationship. She admitted that on her own. And that was a time when things went pretty well. Until request for commitment, for example my (very) subtle proposal of moving in to her home again. Than she literally sabotaged our relationship, closeness. My dynamic was to take it easy, but all those deactivation strategies cumulated my frustration and I was lower and lower on my secure level. After three years almost every rejection (true or not!) turned me AP.
I think it's really hard for an insecure partner to gauge their insecure partner's level of health. I say that after all I have learned and changed in my own journey, the ground still shifts beneath me and what I thought was healthy at some point is later revealed by experience and growth to be unhealthy. And given your insecure history I just simply don't believe that you were spun in the blender of attachment insecurity and poured yourself out into this (unavailable) relationship securely. You chose another insecure mate which you learned later so honestly my opinion, and it is only that, is that there are likely some very important subtleties, some stealth bad habits, in yourself that you are unaware of. This stuff happens on a level below present consciousness. So, whether or not you feel need to focus on her at all, if you're still picking unavailable partners there is something more you can do for yourself. I'm not beating you up I'm just saying that if you want to be free to have happy and satisfying relationships that evolve as you do, less about your insecure partner and more about your insecure self is the way. |
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Post by tnr9 on Sept 1, 2021 13:29:57 GMT
It isnt your job to fix her, correct. I think it's a good idea to try to recognize your own sense of superiority in trying to, or thinking that you could somehow lead the way. AP trying to show a DA all that is wrong with them is like the blind leading the blind in my opinion. I'm sure she can't take you seriously because she sees your own insecurity. You can't give away what you haven't got. You can make your own path to secure without her and really you're obliged to yourself to do so. Best of luck and breakups hurt but it's part of the necessary process of changing dysfunctional patterns in yourself.
Good point.
But I must say that I acted securely in that relationship. She admitted that on her own. And that was a time when things went pretty well. Until request for commitment, for example my (very) subtle proposal of moving in to her home again. Than she literally sabotaged our relationship, closeness. My dynamic was to take it easy, but all those deactivation strategies cumulated my frustration and I was lower and lower on my secure level. After three years almost every rejection (true or not!) turned me AP.
I still think she is FA and her comment about you being secure may be fawning behavior….or you could have been the least insecure partner that she had….but attachment is not based on 1 relationship…it is based on your own internal reactions and behaviors. It is your “go to” under stress….and from what I am reading, your behaviors and reactions fit an AP attachment style. The good news is that there are lots of others here with AP, AP leaning (like me) and former AP attachment who can help you to navigate the next steps if you are interested. |
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dexter
Junior Member
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Post by dexter on Sept 1, 2021 14:06:30 GMT
I am sure she wasn't fawning. She is generally not into complimenting partner. What I find typical for DA. And whats more, she is not much interested in my life, feelings, etc. Which was OK for me, I do not need much that kind of reasurrance. But when my AP surfaced I started to feel I need validation from her. Yes, I would appreciate any experiences and points of view that you can share. I think I am most insecure partner at this moment she ever had. And vice versa  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2021 14:12:32 GMT
I am sure she wasn't fawning. She is generally not into complimenting partner. What I find typical for DA. And whats more, she is not much interested in my life, feelings, etc. Which was OK for me, I do not need much that kind of reasurrance. But when my AP surfaced I started to feel I need validation from her. Yes, I would appreciate any experiences and points of view that you can share. I think I am most insecure partner at this moment she ever had. And vice versa Why do you think it's ok for a partner to not be interested in your life, feelings etc?! The need for belonging, empathy, love and understanding and comradeship is not an anxious thing, it's a secure thing. AP go wrong by continually trying to get that from someone who is clearly not capable. And AP go wrong by not understanding how they themselves are emotionally incapable of offering same in a healthy way, that isn't transactional or based on true emotional security. I see AP's here seeming to think that hyper independence is secure, compared to their hyper dependence. The truth is in the middle and I believe it's called interdependence. |
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Post by tnr9 on Sept 1, 2021 14:18:31 GMT
I am sure she wasn't fawning. She is generally not into complimenting partner. What I find typical for DA. And whats more, she is not much interested in my life, feelings, etc. Which was OK for me, I do not need much that kind of reasurrance. But when my AP surfaced I started to feel I need validation from her. Yes, I would appreciate any experiences and points of view that you can share. I think I am most insecure partner at this moment she ever had. And vice versa So…first…I would suggest you read through the AP section of this forum. Take note of any behaviors, interactions etc that you either relate to or that trigger you as both are useful. Do you currently have a therapist of your own? If not, I highly recommend finding one to help guide you on your journey. My therapist is an SE (somatic experiencing) therapist….which means she uses cues from my body in order to work through past trauma…but you will find as you read that there are many different types of therapists that people see..so find one that is a good match for you. |
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