KAI
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by KAI on Oct 5, 2021 7:47:03 GMT
Hello,
yup, i'm back on the boards (last year i dodged a bullet with what i now think was probably a girl with covert npd. I had vented here a lot, as i was blindsided by the breakup and mistook her beahviour for FA (and maybe she was as well, because there was a lot of anxiety at the beginning), i needed some advice. Some of you here pointed out she probably was "something else" than FA, which i later realised was probably the case. (lovebombing at 1st + very strong need to control the relationship + entitlement + let me pay for everything + went back to her ex bf whom she was constantly criticising in the worst way, even insinuated he was abusive, then totally obliterated me as if we had never lived anything)
Anyway, it took me some time to recover, then i went back to dating and met that other girl about 6 months ago. Everything was incredible at the beginning (do you see where this is going ? lol), she was loving, tender, communicative, the sex was really good, and although i could see there was fragility in her, i could also see that she was fighting it, and really trying. It made me even more fall for her.
(I have to precise that i'm older than her, and i think i'm a struggling AP/FA, if the relationship is stable, i can be almost secure, but if the other person rocks the boat, i'm back to my patterns (which i know and fight))
It got better and better although we don't live in the same city, and i have a lot of work that keeps me on the move, we would stay connected, and communicated a lot. At some point, we agreed on being exclusive. Then, in between all this work i had to do (i'm an artist, that's why i have to move), i managed to come and spend 4 days in her city, and we had an incredible time, and we both said we were falling in love. She even said that what we were experiencing made her rethink other times when she thought she was in love. Soon after that, things began to change.
Also maybe because she entered a very stressful time (definitely moving out to a new city, insecurities concerning her future and career, and some other things that went on at that time).
Anyway, we didn't see a lot of each other after that (not a choice, i was working, and she was managing her moving out.) When we were seeing each other, she was depressed, and not at all in the mood to have sex (which she was really into before that). I went to help her move out, and spent 3 days doing that with her, and she was emotionnally .. a mess. Crying a lot, very very fragile. And i supported her a lot. She was very thankful and loving and tender, and told me she loved me (i also told her) Then it was time to go for me, and that's the moment she chose to tell me she wanted to have an open relationship. This discussion came after she noticed another woman was hitting on me. so i wonder if it was a test or what. But she appeared to really want it.
The next day, she regretted it saying she was afraid to lose me, and had the feeling she was pushing me into that other woman's arms.
After that, it was a lot of ups and downs, telling me to go (one time, she was really sad and depressed and asked me to take my leave), then, a few hours later, she was texting me apologising : a lot of drama, and it started to really affect me. The last time she came, i was tired after a long day of work, and i started crying, so she questionned the relationship (another test ?). The next morning, as i slept really bad, i cried again, and she said it was over. She was very emotionnal, said she could'nt be in a relationship, that i couldn't help her ..etc. She was very emotional and kissed me and hugged me till she got out.
Then she came to take her stuff back at my place, and said she had to follow her guts (or intuition), that she didn't feel the same about me (10 days after saying she loved me for the 1st time), that communication was not fluid anymore. She was very still emotional, she cried, and we spent 1 hour lying on my bed holding each other. She said she did'nt want me to be out of her life.
So that's it. I entered no contact, but we still follow each other on instagram. I don't react to her things though, just watch them.
Sorry about the venting, but ANY INSIGHT from the community would be welcome. I really like this girl, although i'm starting to realise that she might have deactivated totally ..
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Post by annieb on Oct 5, 2021 13:11:05 GMT
I’m sorry you went through yet again another ordeal. But kudos to you for trying. One thing that stood out is that you refer to this person as a “girl”. Perhaps in an endearing way, but it could also be an issue. How much younger than you is she? And is she a “woman” in your perception. Are you picking an equal or are you preemptively picking a “girl”. What do you think a relationship would look like with an equal? Do you pick an equal initially, but then she loses her status in your eyes? When did the sex stop? Was there a shift in how your perceived her?
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Post by annieb on Oct 5, 2021 14:03:51 GMT
But in terms of if she is FA, some of the behaviors look like AP protest behaviors to me. I would say AP leaning FA if that matters (I find it doesn’t matter in my life what they are, but only insofar as what I keep attracting is still indicative of what I am).
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KAI
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by KAI on Oct 5, 2021 19:49:31 GMT
Thanks for replying annieB !
and spot on
the difference in age was kind of big : 17 years. She's 29 and i'm 46. I said "girl" also because i'm French and the word came to me, but maybe it's not that innocent that i said 'girl', maybe she's more of a girl in my eyes, somebody that i would help grow, and protect. I tried to consider her as my equal, but she definitely is at the beginning of something, in her path as an artist, and i have already achieved to be doing that as a living, whereas she is struggling as a young artist. I always tried to not give her too much advice, and not patronize her, but, i guess it happened. The funny thing is that the woman (not a girl, lol) that was hitting on me is also an artist, a writer, and a quite successful one. And she is just slightly younger than i am. Like 42 or something.
At first (i think) i didn't really think about anything, i just met her, we clicked, we managed to meet again, had sex, and wanted to see more of each other, so we did, and yes i knew she was younger, but i saw her as my equal. I think when she began to be depressed i was kind of worried that the r-ship narrowed down to me being an emotional support
The sex stopped right when she began to be depressed because of her circumstances, and almost right after we spent 4 magical days hanging out and making love all the time, and i said i was falling in love and she told me she was falling too. That's partly why i thought she might be mostly FA leaning AP, because i thought she might have started to deactivate from that very intimate days we spent, and being vulnerable.
(Before that, she was very sexual, almost more than me).
Thanks for your insight about her being more AP than FA. I'm curious ..what do you call protest behaviour ?
ANyway, she now seems to have totally deactivated. She's not even looking at my stories on instagram anymore, that was our last connection ( and what a connection, lol), that was the last thing that showed she still had a slight interest in me, and what i was about.
THANK YOU SO MUCH, i know i'll be ok, and i've improved so much since last time lol but still, the comfort and enlightening i can find here, is precious
K
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Post by krolle on Oct 10, 2021 13:38:15 GMT
annieb Would you be able to expand your opinion on the significance of the woman/girl terminology? In reference to OP I would say she seems likely a very insecure FA. But Annieb' s hypothesis of Anxious Protest behaviours is equally plausible. Either way the attachment strategy is roughly the same place on the spectrum. Protest behaviours are something like passive aggressive behaviour or game playing. It's a way to communicate indirectly how she's feeling and test/ re-establish connection. An example would be something like withdrawing on purpose to see if you chase her.
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Post by krolle on Oct 10, 2021 14:22:25 GMT
Hello,
yup, i'm back on the boards (last year i dodged a bullet with what i now think was probably a girl with covert npd...
I have found quiet commonly a lot of interchangability between FA and covert Narcassism presentations. And DA and regular narcissism presentations, at least from the perspective of the partner. I have been accused of being a covert narc before. And I'v mused whether it's possibly true here on the this forum a few times. And also whether they are simply the same thing with different names. |
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KAI
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by KAI on Oct 10, 2021 18:15:38 GMT
Thanks Krolle for replying
it's always good to hear/read back when you post here. In those moments, every little gesture of someone paying attention is made of gold.
I would say she's FA because in my opinion, she started sabotaging and distancing to immediately come back right after/ SHe also withdrew sex from the equation while she had been very sexual before and claimed she enjoyed it very much with me (but it could also be related to her depressive state at that moment).
She also suddenly decided that we had to open the r-ship (it could be a protest behaviour as the other woman who was chasing me was also part of that discussion).
She had opportunities to rekindle as last time i saw her, when she came to get her stuff, i said i was sad and asked her if there was anything we could do. She said in her experience, once the dynamics go wrong, there's not much you can do, and she doesn't have the energy (!). She also said her feelings had changed. But, at the same time, she was very emotional all along. She even cried when i gave her back her gifts. Or more precisely she cried when i said "we have to move forward". She said she didn't want me out of her life. And cried.
When she departed, i told her i would't chase. She said "i know". She looked very sad though.
Concerning that other girl, L, whom i suspect to be a covert narc or at least to have (strong) traits, there is something about her and the way she considers every ex she had like they were supposed to be at her knees, and her way of handling money (and the money of her partner) that most certainly. She was horrible with me as soon as the breakup occured. She ghosted me and acted like a moron (same way she acted as a moron we the ex she came back to. Now i know that this guy is totally under her influence, and i think she found herself a willing slave).
I can't quite get I. (the last girl) out of my mind, and we will have to work together if she still agrees to it, so i'll soon contact her about that.
It's also a way for me to test the waters. It's been a little more than two weeks since the breakup, and one week since we last saw each other.
She still looks at my stories on insta, i do too, and i have liked a publication she did, and that's our last "link."
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Post by annieb on Oct 11, 2021 15:10:24 GMT
Ah, yes, sorry fir a late response KAI, I believe like you said that some of her sulking, withdrawing were actually bids for more closeness rather than what they looked like at the time - avoidance. From what you wrote as a follow up, you very well may reach out to her for a relationship and I think she would reciprocate. And this is total speculation - but if you saw her as an equal (maybe work on your own perception), that a relationship would be possible. The question is - can you be an equal partner to somebody you didn’t perceive as an equal initially? Meaning - YOU have to change for this relationship to grow.
krolle - the girl/ woman theory is just that. If a “man” dates a “girl”, perhaps it’s not set up to be an equal partnership.
Because it I as a woman think about dating a boy, it would mean I’m in control of this relationship, it’s unequal by definition. This person would inevitably be dependent on me. Dating an equal is scary for many. It is scary for me as well. I would absolutely feel like I’m “losing control”. My therapist is encouraging me to think about a relationship where I’m dating an equal and what that would look like. My last serious relationship I felt like he was my equal, but he didn’t think so 😂. He was a Narc and we all know how a narcissist perceives their SO. So obviously he was not my equal, because he lacked respect for me. I have to say though when I dated him initially I was very excited and I felt like a woman and he felt like a man to me. Although the dynamics quickly shifted into abuse from lovebombing. When I came out of it I was a broken woman, but I was never a girl. I started referring to myself as a “woman” in general around age 25 or so. Personally.
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Post by annieb on Oct 11, 2021 15:30:59 GMT
Also regarding protest behaviors - as a FA they don’t come up for me like that. I understand if I break up with someone it is final and I’m responsible for that break up. Or if I withdraw from them that there will be consequences, but most of my FA behaviors are subconscious and disassociated, so if I withdraw or break up it’s also the only way I can get through the pain, or my brain rather, the feeling of avoidant behavior is lack of control. If anything your “girl” 🤓 is on her way to FA, as some of these behaviors become more and more automatic, not less, with time.
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KAI
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by KAI on Oct 11, 2021 20:38:51 GMT
Thanks for your answers
I think her change in attitude really made me think she was FA because of the rejection i felt. I did'nt think APs could also push, i thought they would only pull.. I think i could better deal with an AP, and i don't want to let her go just yet..
I need another clear sign that it's hopeless, i guess
So I just contacted her today, to see if she was still interested to work on this project with me and a bunch of other people. She said yes and we had a little chat session work related. She asked how my last performance went, but i didn't reply, as we were discussing other subjects.
Then something really weird happened : she suggested we could invite a group of performers that the other woman that was hitting on me is a member of (it has been a subject of discussion/jealousy between us, but i thought i always managed to reassure her). Now, it really puzzled me. Was she trying to provoke me, is it a protest behaviour ? I didn't take the bait, and said it was a good idea (they're also a reference in this area), but also mentionned other people that could be part of the event, and went on as if nothing happened.
Then a few hours later she went back tchatting to ask me about my last performance because i did'nt reply which i took as a good sign. As soon as i saw it, one hour later or so, i replied, she saw my reply, but left it on "seen". I don't know if she was just being polite..
She's also not very consistent in viewing my stories (she used to be). So i wonder if she is not interested or if she deliberately chooses not to look at them to convince herself that she isn't interested..or me..
ANyway, it's kind of lukewarm on her part, and i don't want to push her or maybe i'm afraid that i might look like a fool. Or maybe i fear rejection.
one step at a time ...
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Post by alexandra on Oct 11, 2021 21:29:41 GMT
This is where it gets tricky, KAI. You're essentially trying to read the tea leaves. You're overanalyzing because of the intermittent reinforcement. If she is FA, they can be inconsistent moment to moment, very reactive, and someone leaning anxious will see this as hope in mixed signals instead of someone who can't show up for the relationship you want. So be careful instead of going down rabbit holes. |
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Post by annieb on Oct 11, 2021 21:37:57 GMT
KAI, I believe your job now would be as truthful to yourself as you can be and state your intentions to her (or the other woman) as clearly as you can. I believe you are right in reading that she is perhaps testing your response regarding the other lady. And this is where you should really be honest with yourself and see what it is that envision for yourself moving forward. Regardless of who is FA or AP, how do you see your future relationship, what are your goals, and then approach the person, who most closely align with those goals. And when you approach, you are open and honest and do not fear rejection because whatever happens happens type of thing. It's a good time to test your courage. (As good a time as ever as being courageous is a great exercise for self esteem and confidence).
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KAI
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by KAI on Oct 12, 2021 10:53:51 GMT
hello guys, and thanks for helping me to see better through it all
i wrote a reply this morning and it got lost after i closed my navigator by mistake, so i'll try and synthetise what was in it :
first of all (alexandra), i realize that my trying to decipher where she's at, if she still likes me or not and would want to try it again is completely me being triggered anxious. But all the more, i think i just realized that i was triggered anxious even before, just by being in a r-ship with her and starting to fall for her. Hello attachment trauma.
Also because i'm not confident that a woman (not girl, annieb  ) like that : amazingly beautiful, talented, smart, sensitive, loving, young could be interested in me long term. So at some point, i guess i began to test her. Maybe i gave her clues that the other woman was interested in me, and it probably triggered her anxious (or avoidant if she's FA).
I think if she's open to rekindle at some point, i will have to tell her that (annieb), admit that i have those insecurities, and it can make me act opposite to the interest of the r-ship at times, be open with her about it. But i think we first need to rebuild attraction, if it's possible. The end of our r-ship was just us constantly trying to talk it out, and it ended up being counterprodcutive in the end. You can't just talk a r-ship out, you also have to live it, have fun, and be reminded what it is that makes you like this person, you can't be processing all the time.
i Think if she stays inconsistent, i will get tired of it pretty quickly and will decide to move on.
Now my friends are encouraging me to do that, and try it with the other woman. Of course, that would be the reasonable choice : she's my age, very smart, hot, she's well established in life, and she's giving me clear signs that she's very much into it. The only thing is her way of hitting at me screams that there is something wrong with her attachment style as well = she seems to project a lot on me, and on the fact that we would be the perfect couple, and she's really into me although we only crossed paths a few times in events. (On Friday, we are supposed to go to the same event.)
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Post by annieb on Oct 12, 2021 14:40:37 GMT
Oh boy. I would first apologize to the “girl” because it sounds like you triangulated her with the “woman”. Other than that try to keep your focus on your feelings at all times without guessing what others are thinking and if you want to know exactly, ask them. I get a feeling you are standing in your own way with all of this and it’s important you take care of yourself first. Meaning really tend to you self esteem and feelings. Focus on you. In a kind and compassionate way, address your insecurities and see what you can do about each one of them.
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KAI
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by KAI on Oct 12, 2021 16:06:37 GMT
i tried to do my best, as we all do. i can see that it doesn't weigh much in front of both my insecurities and hers
i have communicated my feelings a lot and so did she, apparently not the right way, if we get another chance, maybe we'll do better
thanks for the advice
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) like that : amazingly beautiful, talented, smart, sensitive, loving, young could be interested in me long term. So at some point, i guess i began to test her. Maybe i gave her clues that the other woman was interested in me, and it probably triggered her anxious (or avoidant if she's FA).