|
Post by happydaze on Dec 11, 2021 19:44:51 GMT
Removed for privacy reasons. Sorry!
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Dec 11, 2021 20:24:55 GMT
I am wondering whether this is really just FA, or just deeper wounds from my toxic marriage, and that I really just need more time to heal and grow as a person now that I am single? That's what my therapist thinks. It's frightening at middle-age to confront these demons when the pool of healthy single potential partners is so shallow. Few of those would ever tolerate my push and pull. My gut tells me I probably just need more time to heal and am not ready for anything truly serious. I want to sort of discover who I am by dating more women, comparing and contrasting them, etc. I'm sorry you've gone through a lot of pain and are still in a tumultuous space. My opinion is, all of you (you yourself, you current partner, and your therapist) are somewhat right. Your partner is probably correct that you are not ready for what she wants at this time, and that's okay. It's incompatibility unfortunately, but it's okay because life stage timing and being on the same growth page in regards to emotional maturity is just a part of adult and committed relationships. It doesn't mean you don't care enough, and I'm a little surprised she would say that if she understands attachment theory. Maybe you haven't learned to care enough about yourself quite yet, but it's not about her or how much you care about her. There's way more than that at play. Your gut is saying something is wrong, that's also correct. But finding the answer to what's wrong and causing the void won't be in other women. Comparing and contrasting a bunch of new partners won't teach you what you need to know on its own because that keeps the focus on others when the core problem is not with your partner (assuming your current partner really is emotionally healthy). The problem is inside you and your relationship and connection with yourself. You'll run into the same problem over and over by exploring and focusing on lots of women and situationships without some other plan of inward focus and work happening at the same time. With this approach of lots more dating for its own sake, you'll also inevitably meet someone more avoidant than you who will make you feel totally "in love" and end up in another toxic mess that exacerbates the existing underlying issues you haven't dealt with yet, because that is just the way relationship dynamics work for FAs who are struggling in the ways you're struggling right now. That will delay healing even more and add more layers and attachment wounds to heal. Which brings us to what your therapist said. The therapist is right that you need more time to heal. But I don't think it's going to work to focus only on healing from your toxic ex. You need to actually go way further back than that, and heal something else that happened before, something that created an emotional state within you that primed you for being attracted to someone toxic and then staying with them. That is where the void is coming from, somewhere before your ex. It is within whatever circumstances caused your attachment wounds and FA attachment style in the first place, which your ex I'm sure did not help in any way but which certainly existed before you met. You're doing yourself a disservice to say this is "just" FA or "just" deeper wounds from your marriage. That's minimizing the underlying issues, though I assume you're doing that because you already know how painful and difficult they are to unravel (which is why the idea of just dating a lot of other people is way more appealing and sounds easier in theory!). Minimizing them makes that pain and growth easier to avoid. But you need to decide for yourself if that void you feel is painful enough that you need and deeply desire to change or not. My recommendation is to talk more to your therapist about what happened in your life before the marriage and how you can heal that first. Then move on to processing the marriage with the better tools you're learning through therapy. Scale back on dating, and when you do date, be very honest about only being ready for casual or short-term situations (and don't try this with women who are anxious attachers because it will become a mess and they'll try to turn it into a real relationship that's nothing but push-pull). Tell your partner that she is right you're not ready, though it's not because you don't care enough for her, it's your baggage. But that it doesn't change that the timing is off. I think you should make a clean break with her for now, no contact and no distracting each other. Which sounds scary, but who knows where you'll both be emotionally in 6 months, and if you've made some healing progress and overcome the void on your own, maybe things can be different. If they can't be and reconnection doesn't happen, we have threads here that there are good partners who still exist after age 35 (even if there are fewer), and there's no need to add to your fears by having a scarcity mentality. You'll meet the people you're supposed to when you're ready. Like attracts like, and people seeking connection will find each other even later in life.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2021 5:59:58 GMT
happydaze, I come from DA, moving toward secure , I'm middle aged as well and found my current partner in middle age, we are late 40's early 50's. It's a good relationship, and we found each other when we were ready. Here's some food for thought. The younger dating pool is chock full of good potential partners. The older dating pool has fewer prospects. But it isn't the quantity of prospects, nor the quality of prospects that will limit your future relationship success. If you're an insecure attacher you will find the toxic pairing time after time, or be unavailable for bonding as you've experienced. That's got nothing to do with how many folks are out there. If you keep working on your attachment issues, and can find progress with the right therapist and doing your own hard work, you will find a rewarding relationship with a good partner, I see it happen repeatedly at any age (I deal with the public and have lots of connections, I truly do see it happen with regularity, later life relationships that are stable and happy). The scarcity mindset is an insecure trait. Just put it aside. It doesn't matter, worrying about that right now is putting the cart before the horse. Anyway, I'm really sorry that you're going through this, a long marriage to BPD surely left it's mark and it will take some time to heal up. I do think that attachment insecurity in an individual is what makes it possible to choose and remain with a personality disordered mate- my own opinion on that- so look way back and try to discover what beliefs you developed in childhood that enabled that dynamic in your marriage. Best of luck to you. Don't give up.
|
|
|
Post by happydaze on Dec 12, 2021 19:31:04 GMT
Your gut is saying something is wrong, that's also correct. But finding the answer to what's wrong and causing the void won't be in other women. Comparing and contrasting a bunch of new partners won't teach you what you need to know on its own because that keeps the focus on others when the core problem is not with your partner (assuming your current partner really is emotionally healthy). The problem is inside you and your relationship and connection with yourself. You'll run into the same problem over and over by exploring and focusing on lots of women and situationships without some other plan of inward focus and work happening at the same time. With this approach of lots more dating for its own sake, you'll also inevitably meet someone more avoidant than you who will make you feel totally "in love" and end up in another toxic mess that exacerbates the existing underlying issues you haven't dealt with yet, because that is just the way relationship dynamics work for FAs who are struggling in the ways you're struggling right now. That will delay healing even more and add more layers and attachment wounds to heal. Which brings us to what your therapist said. The therapist is right that you need more time to heal. But I don't think it's going to work to focus only on healing from your toxic ex. You need to actually go way further back than that, and heal something else that happened before, something that created an emotional state within you that primed you for being attracted to someone toxic and then staying with them. That is where the void is coming from, somewhere before your ex. It is within whatever circumstances caused your attachment wounds and FA attachment style in the first place, which your ex I'm sure did not help in any way but which certainly existed before you met. <snip> My recommendation is to talk more to your therapist about what happened in your life before the marriage and how you can heal that first. Then move on to processing the marriage with the better tools you're learning through therapy. Scale back on dating, and when you do date, be very honest about only being ready for casual or short-term situations (and don't try this with women who are anxious attachers because it will become a mess and they'll try to turn it into a real relationship that's nothing but push-pull). Tell your partner that she is right you're not ready, though it's not because you don't care enough for her, it's your baggage. But that it doesn't change that the timing is off. I think you should make a clean break with her for now, no contact and no distracting each other. Which sounds scary, but who knows where you'll both be emotionally in 6 months, and if you've made some healing progress and overcome the void on your own, maybe things can be different. If they can't be and reconnection doesn't happen, we have threads here that there are good partners who still exist after age 35 (even if there are fewer), and there's no need to add to your fears by having a scarcity mentality. You'll meet the people you're supposed to when you're ready. Like attracts like, and people seeking connection will find each other even later in life.
alexandra, this is exactly what I needed to hear: wisdom delivered direct but with compassion.
I needed to be reminded this stems from deeper, older places. I was aware of that when I first encountered attachment theory and had made some insights, but I only excavated far enough to get me to the next step in my new relationship.
Also really appreciate the warning about how easily I could end up in a relationship mess which is only going to hurt me more and delay progress.
Thank you again for taking time to share your wisdom and suggestions. Am saving it and re-reading.
|
|
|
Post by happydaze on Dec 12, 2021 20:34:26 GMT
happydaze , I come from DA, moving toward secure , I'm middle aged as well and found my current partner in middle age, we are late 40's early 50's. It's a good relationship, and we found each other when we were ready. Here's some food for thought. The younger dating pool is chock full of good potential partners. The older dating pool has fewer prospects. But it isn't the quantity of prospects, nor the quality of prospects that will limit your future relationship success. If you're an insecure attacher you will find the toxic pairing time after time, or be unavailable for bonding as you've experienced. That's got nothing to do with how many folks are out there. If you keep working on your attachment issues, and can find progress with the right therapist and doing your own hard work, you will find a rewarding relationship with a good partner, I see it happen repeatedly at any age (I deal with the public and have lots of connections, I truly do see it happen with regularity, later life relationships that are stable and happy). The scarcity mindset is an insecure trait. Just put it aside. It doesn't matter, worrying about that right now is putting the cart before the horse. Anyway, I'm really sorry that you're going through this, a long marriage to BPD surely left it's mark and it will take some time to heal up. I do think that attachment insecurity in an individual is what makes it possible to choose and remain with a personality disordered mate- my own opinion on that- so look way back and try to discover what beliefs you developed in childhood that enabled that dynamic in your marriage. Best of luck to you. Don't give up. Your post was very encouraging because we are of similar age and you echoed much of what alexandra wrote.
I am thinking of finding a second or replacement therapist.
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Dec 12, 2021 20:42:15 GMT
I also was surprised to realize these mostly stemmed from my otherwise wonderful nurturing mother using me as an emotional surrogate husband to my kind but emotionally aloof and self-hating narcissist father. I always knew that we were too close in some way, and it gave me a sort of icky feeling after I reached adulthood and was trying hard to individuate. I have less insight about my father other than his failure to contrast my mother's influence. He is also a fear-based person who taught me to always first consider what will go wrong, so yeah I have a lot of work, but I do believe my infrastructure is intact, but I will need to do a lot more excavating to breach this wall of Love Avoidance if I can locate it. This is exactly it. It will feel very uncomfortable to dig into, but FA is very commonly a natural response in a child experiencing familial enmeshment. If you're not familiar with the term enmeshment, pop it into an internet search and you'll get a ton of information to start off with. Combining one parent enmeshing you with having an extremely insecure avoidant and distrustful detached other parent, and you didn't have proper modeling for a healthy sense of self, sense of boundaries, or learning interpersonal relationship skills. (One of the other top contributors to any insecure attachment style is having an adult attachment figure around in your childhood who has a personality disorder, though I'm not sure how pathological your dad is from your description). Definitely discuss with the therapist. But don't be surprised if those avoidant defense mechanisms kick in and you start feeling uncomfortable in your sessions. That means you're getting somewhere, because all your subconscious conditioning was to avoid all this childhood pain and discomfort that you couldn't process at the time. To live with it, you needed to push it down somewhere. As an adult, you get to make the choice to recondition your nervous system and learn to process what happened, though it is not quick. You're already seeing that labeling and being able to verbally identify and describe what you experience helps. I had to understand what happened in my childhood so I could re-write my narrative in a more fair and realistic way that was also compassionate towards myself... which allowed me to depersonalize and also throw out the dysfunction I learned from others (and still see in them since they haven't changed so I need to continue to hold boundaries and depersonalize and not let an old "script" given to me by others define me). I once found this video pretty interesting. It's an interview with Neil Strauss, who wrote the book The Game (the pickup artist book) when he was extremely unaware FA and then wrote the book The Truth about his process coming to terms with his insecurities and fears and earning secure (though he doesn't say this in attachment style terms). The video discusses enmeshment and thinking about change in a unique way. I liked the "turning the spoke" description. (You can skip to 11 minutes in to start.) youtu.be/aDwYlZAE3Q4
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Dec 12, 2021 20:47:34 GMT
Having read your response to introvert after I replied, your brother having a personality disorder definitely had an impact as well. And you describe that your go to coping mechanism through all this, growing up and then in your marriage, became dissociation.
If you want to find another therapist, I recommend someone who has a lot of experience treating those recovering from having family members and (ex) partners with personality disorders as well as someone well versed in attachment theory. It sounds like you have a lot of information about where to start, which means lots of progress can be achieved!
|
|
|
Post by anne12 on Dec 12, 2021 21:02:48 GMT
Some suggestions on how to work with desorganised attatchmentstyle. A toxic marrige can push you into some desorganised attatchmentstyle/trauma. By being in a toxic relationship you are going to live in an alarm condition state in the relationship and after the relationship has ended. Shock trauma and unsertanty can get stuck in your nerveussystem. jebkinnisonforum.com/post/29355/jebkinnison.boards.net/thread/1073/healing-disorganized-attatchment-chock-traumaHealing from the disorganized form of attatchmentstyle is at the deepest level of seerate the love / safe attachment from the threat. Unfortunately, you can not talk or analyze this!!!! It must be healed on all 3 levels: the mental, emotional and instinctive level! REMEMBER: Healing on the instinctive level, must come first. It´s survivel energy! When your system is in survival mode, it overrules everything else that you might have learned - your logic and your emotions - and your lovelife! You can try to find an attatchment therapist who is also educated in somatic experience. Maybe you already know about SE ? And who knows what it means to be around people with personality disorders ect. (your body will show) When you get into a relationship that is more healthy then there is more room for the trauma whirl wind to make noice. People often get confused why they are suddenly having theese “wierd” reactions when they have found a secure partner. Theres a post about this in the healing desorganized thread. Theres a thread called healing a broken heart and how to live with an open heart in the general forum. Maybe you havent healed enough from your toxic relationship. jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1169/healing-broken-before-changing-partner
|
|
|
Post by krolle on Dec 13, 2021 20:08:14 GMT
Welcome to hell of emotional limbo bud!
Oh man....21 years with a cluster B! I'm surprised you're not dead. Never mind dating again. It's no wonder you are fearful of a commitment.
I was also in a LTR with a borderline. Only around 6 years compared to your decades... But it was both the best and worst relationship of my life. And left me with massive emotional scars. I agree you very likely had the seeds of insecure attachment before you even went into the relationship, but don't downplay how that relationship will have effected you as an adult too. Attachment styles are relatively stable, but still changeable, for better or worse.
I believe Thais Gibson when she says the subconscious is programmed via repetition plus emotion. Think about all the horrible negative emotional reinforcement that probably happened during your marriage. It will be deeply imprinted into your nervous system now that commited relationships are to be feared.
And that feeds into my next point, that awareness and identification is only the start. Because so much of this stuff is subconscious and built into your nervous system, you can't control it by simply being aware. I am a testament to that. I'm a treasure trove of attachment and personality theory knowledge, but I'm just about as insecure as ever. For the same reason it doesn't surprise me that your most recent date knew about attachment, but attributes it to you not caring enough. It's possibly some anxiety creeping in for her and the desire to blame, though that's just speculation.
It's kind of like substance addiction. An addict can know when they are relapsing, know it's bad for them, but still just not be able to stop using.
Others on this thread have mentioned about the relationship to self being important. My journey to secure is constantly hamstrung by the fact I have no concept if this. Or even seem to posess the hardware to understand it. Hopefully you are different, It will likely be the most productive avenue for you to explore.
|
|
|
Post by happydaze on Dec 14, 2021 0:43:35 GMT
Welcome to hell of emotional limbo bud! Oh man....21 years with a cluster B! I'm surprised you're not dead. Never mind dating again. It's no wonder you are fearful of a commitment. I was also in a LTR with a borderline. Only around 6 years compared to your decades... But it was both the best and worst relationship of my life. And left me with massive emotional scars. I agree you very likely had the seeds of insecure attachment before you even went into the relationship, but don't downplay how that relationship will have effected you as an adult too. Attachment styles are relatively stable, but still changeable, for better or worse. I believe Thais Gibson when she says the subconscious is programmed via repetition plus emotion. Think about all the horrible negative emotional reinforcement that probably happened during your marriage. It will be deeply imprinted into your nervous system now that commited relationships are to be feared. And that feeds into my next point, that awareness and identification is only the start. Because so much of this stuff is subconscious and built into your nervous system, you can't control it by simply being aware. I am a testament to that. I'm a treasure trove of attachment and personality theory knowledge, but I'm just about as insecure as ever. For the same reason it doesn't surprise me that your most recent date knew about attachment, but attributes it to you not caring enough. It's possibly some anxiety creeping in for her and the desire to blame, though that's just speculation. It's kind of like substance addiction. An addict can know when they are relapsing, know it's bad for them, but still just not be able to stop using. Others on this thread have mentioned about the relationship to self being important. My journey to secure is constantly hamstrung by the fact I have no concept if this. Or even seem to posess the hardware to understand it. Hopefully you are different, It will likely be the most productive avenue for you to explore. Ouch, but a lot of what you say rings true. It does feel like hard-wiring or, worse, like I am missing a vital part in me that allows bonding and secure attachment. I hope it's just some rewiring work and the right person.
|
|
|
Post by krolle on Dec 14, 2021 4:25:08 GMT
Don't take my experience as the only way this can turn out. I'm cynical and mistrusting and it holds me back more than many people on here. At the end of the day I'm just another insecure chump on an internet forum trying work all this crap out. Iv just been through the grinder enough times (both sides) to have a bit of experience. Not that it's moved the needle too much.
It doesn't surprise me you have ADHD. It seems to be fairly common amongst us insecures. You might get some mileage by reading my "ADHD, FA, HSP, anxiety, depression" thread.
And my Father was very unavailable and mother very anxious and controlling too. The core beliefs they passed onto me were that Human beings are not to be trusted. That the world is a terrifying and cruel place and you must protect yourself at all costs.
You are correct there are likely a lot of opportunities for fun in the dating pool these days, including with your age group. But beware. This is like walking through a minefield. Especially if you have the wounds that you have, plus ADHD .
As far as I can tell, you haven't really experienced being on the other side of avoidance. The discard.....F**k is it ever painful. You don't see it coming half the time. I didnt even think it would bother me after being in my avoidance for so long......But i'v been blind sided a couple of times in recent years and its absolutely devastating. Having said that I have also considered it a valuable part of my awareness. Like you only realize how much you are capable of hurting people when you experience it first hand. Suppose it depends if you have much abandonment trauma.
Also if your experience is anything like mine you'll probably end up at least having a fling with another borderline at some point. You'd think that would be the last thing we would do after the misery of our LTR's. But addiction is addiction lol.
....Or if not full borderline you'll trigger someone hard into anxiety and receive the wrath of that side. Though from what you,v said at least you showed a lot more maturity than I have before in ending your latest dating situation. That bodes well.
There are perhaps lots of things that will reveal themselves to you in the coming period that you are probably barely even aware of at the moment. Relationship with shame is one example. Dissociation is another.
People pleasing, , co-dependance, unable to trust compliments. Yup. I know this well. And the really crappy feeling of being caught between really liking someone, but terrified of commiting. Then there's the awful discomfort of knowing you have to hurt someone's feelings when the fear kicks in and you feel the need to let them go......like I said.....welcome to limbo brother.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2021 5:57:38 GMT
Don't be astounded about how poorly the two of you communicated, even when typing carefully over text, as text is a terrible way to communicate in a relationship triggered or no. That just stood out to me as texting seems to be the main form of communication in insecure or toxic relationships, but it's just a supplemental form of communication in available, secure relationships.
Anyway, sorry to butt in here, it just stuck out to me. Communication is huge, and texting is inadequate and even dangerous for relationships except for minor stuff or things also communicated in person.
|
|
|
Post by happydaze on Dec 14, 2021 17:41:39 GMT
Don't be astounded about how poorly the two of you communicated, even when typing carefully over text, as text is a terrible way to communicate in a relationship triggered or no. That just stood out to me as texting seems to be the main form of communication in insecure or toxic relationships, but it's just a supplemental form of communication in available, secure relationships. Anyway, sorry to butt in here, it just stuck out to me. Communication is huge, and texting is inadequate and even dangerous for relationships except for minor stuff or things also communicated in person. Thank you for that angle. We were very text heavy and that's how we initially bonded.
Important reminder that I need to face the music and learn to communicate better face to face.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2021 18:01:49 GMT
Don't be astounded about how poorly the two of you communicated, even when typing carefully over text, as text is a terrible way to communicate in a relationship triggered or no. That just stood out to me as texting seems to be the main form of communication in insecure or toxic relationships, but it's just a supplemental form of communication in available, secure relationships. Anyway, sorry to butt in here, it just stuck out to me. Communication is huge, and texting is inadequate and even dangerous for relationships except for minor stuff or things also communicated in person. Thank you for that angle. We were very text heavy and that's how we initially bonded.
Important reminder that I need to face the music and learn to communicate better face to face.
Honestly, so many insecure relationships would crumble almost immediately if it were required the parties meet face to face to truly connect and also to resolve conflict. Insecure entanglements thrive on unavailable, drama filled communications via text. Typing into a device is the worst way to go if you want a real, intimate, vulnerable and meaningful connection with a true partner. But if you're looking to sustain an unhealthy narrative, block intimacy, and leave a whole lot up to imagination text is the way to go!
|
|
|
Post by happydaze on Dec 14, 2021 18:57:30 GMT
Thank you for that angle. We were very text heavy and that's how we initially bonded.
Important reminder that I need to face the music and learn to communicate better face to face.
Honestly, so many insecure relationships would crumble almost immediately if it were required the parties meet face to face to truly connect and also to resolve conflict. Insecure entanglements thrive on unavailable, drama filled communications via text. Typing into a device is the worst way to go if you want a real, intimate, vulnerable and meaningful connection with a true partner. But if you're looking to sustain an unhealthy narrative, block intimacy, and leave a whole lot up to imagination text is the way to go! Yikes, this rings so true.
|
|