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Post by alexandra on Dec 20, 2021 23:07:59 GMT
Examples of lying through text would be something like saying: "I didn't answer your text until now because I was at work all day" when in reality I wasn't. I was just overwhelmed and needed space and time to recuperate and think. But because I am a people pleaser I find it difficult to say what I want. So I used lying to circumvent that difficulty. Would you describe that as nefarious. Probably not. But if you get found out it can destroy trust. And if you don't, can create a habit of telling casual lies to avoid difficult conversations. This. I've totally been in relationships with FAs who I kind of knew were doing this, but as AP I wouldn't call them out on the white lies because they weren't coming from a place of not caring or disrespecting me. However, they also destroyed the relationships because, by not being honest with me, problems I didn't even know about were never resolved because how could they be. Short term gains to feel more comfortable avoiding difficult conversations, I guess, but eventually self-sabotaged and broke the relationships. Not nefarious in a predatory way, but dysfunctional defense mechanisms that make a bad partner and partnership. Trying to manipulate a situation to feel more comfortable rather than manipulating the partner consciously, I believe. Most of the time, anyway. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2021 1:14:57 GMT
I think the word nefarious was the problem then. The post (in my perspective) sounded predatory, intentional. That's a fair appraisal. The nature of insight and intention is a difficult concept ethically. There was certainly no conscious predatory intent in my actions. But the behaviours are still undesirable and damaging. I have lied, gaslit and manipulated unconsciously when I am triggered both avoidant and anxious. usually out of a feeling of desperation or dissociation, or fear of reprisal when in an abusive relationship. Examples of lying through text would be something like saying: "I didn't answer your text until now because I was at work all day" when in reality I wasn't. I was just overwhelmed and needed space and time to recuperate and think. But because I am a people pleaser I find it difficult to say what I want. So I used lying to circumvent that difficulty. Would you describe that as nefarious. Probably not. But if you get found out it can destroy trust. And if you don't, can create a habit of telling casual lies to avoid difficult conversations. I believe all insecure types have the strong potential to be dishonest when communicating under some kind of duress. It is typical for an avoidant to tell "white lies" to justify their needs and try to avoid conflict. However in the context of your post, to me it just sounded like you were explaining a way to "get away" with intentional lying, in a predatory way. The word nefarious has a connotation of evil, and in on dictionary definition is even described as flagrantly wicked or impious. So the wording/phrasing of your post is something I wanted to distance myself from as an avoidant. I've been the target of that kind of behavior, to be honest... and also I think a LOT of anxious people interpret avoidants as being somewhat nefarious in their intentions and actions. So I made the distinctions because I think there is one. Of course, I do not expect you to speak for all avoidants, nor do I think your personal experiences are representative of all avoidants, just as no one AP speaks for all. Some exhibit more extreme behaviors, some just worry a lot. It's all a spectrum. So I'm not claiming sainthood but I do distinguish my actions and intentions from nefarious  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2021 1:39:13 GMT
Examples of lying through text would be something like saying: "I didn't answer your text until now because I was at work all day" when in reality I wasn't. I was just overwhelmed and needed space and time to recuperate and think. But because I am a people pleaser I find it difficult to say what I want. So I used lying to circumvent that difficulty. Would you describe that as nefarious. Probably not. But if you get found out it can destroy trust. And if you don't, can create a habit of telling casual lies to avoid difficult conversations. This. I've totally been in relationships with FAs who I kind of knew were doing this, but as AP I wouldn't call them out on the white lies because they weren't coming from a place of not caring or disrespecting me. However, they also destroyed the relationships because, by not being honest with me, problems I didn't even know about were never resolved because how could they be. Short term gains to feel more comfortable avoiding difficult conversations, I guess, but eventually self-sabotaged and broke the relationships. Not nefarious in a predatory way, but dysfunctional defense mechanisms that make a bad partner and partnership. Trying to manipulate a situation to feel more comfortable rather than manipulating the partner consciously, I believe. Most of the time, anyway. It's important that AP's also use dishonesty when activated, all insecure types do. Specific examples would be the strategies of making threats to end the relationship while secretly hoping their partner will fight for them, or refusing contact when activated by saying they have plans when they don't. There are many little lies and manipulations in insecure relating, which don't come from a predatory, intentional place but again, I think using the word nefarious to describe those behaviors is misleading and unfair, given the existing definitions of the word. It's associated with villains. There's enough of that kind of talk on this forum in my opinion. |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 21, 2021 2:30:49 GMT
My comment wasn't intended to touch on anything other than the FA behavior krolle mentioned and trying to give more color to what he was at first calling nefarious, because I agree it's not okay but not villainous. Which I'm reframing as maladjusted defense mechanisms (as long as they're not consciously deliberate), due to never learning healthy strategies to get needs met without manipulation. It made no implied statements that DA and AP don't have equal and related unavailability issues and behaviors, even if they come out differently. I noted my letting the behavior slide when AP to highlight where I was also partially at fault in contributing to the dysfunctional dynamic, as all insecure styles are. But everything krolle and I are describing is in hindsight. At the time, I just thought, my FA now exes are overwhelmed, so I'll play along and wait until they're ready to deal with whatever issue. (Which would generally end up being never, and my weak boundaries and own inability to get my needs met fed into the delicate balance of continuing with unaddressed and untenable relationship issues until everything imploded.) |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2021 3:46:59 GMT
My comment wasn't intended to touch on anything other than the FA behavior krolle mentioned and trying to give more color to what he was at first calling nefarious, because I agree it's not okay but not villainous. Which I'm reframing as maladjusted defense mechanisms (as long as they're not consciously deliberate), due to never learning healthy strategies to get needs met without manipulation. It made no implied statements that DA and AP don't have equal and related unavailability issues and behaviors, even if they come out differently. I noted my letting the behavior slide when AP to highlight where I was also partially at fault in contributing to the dysfunctional dynamic, as all insecure styles are. But everything krolle and I are describing is in hindsight. At the time, I just thought, my FA now exes are overwhelmed, so I'll play along and wait until they're ready to deal with whatever issue. (Which would generally end up being never, and my weak boundaries and own inability to get my needs met fed into the delicate balance of continuing with unaddressed and untenable relationship issues until everything imploded.) Right, I'm just keeping my contributions here aligned with my earlier post that the text drama and other associated behaviors are equal opportunity insecure experiences. I wasn't meaning you were implying anything one way or the other. I wouldn't want any one type to be the whipping post for any of this, and we are on an FA thread so I'm just keeping it real about how all insecure do this stuff. |
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Post by mrob on Dec 21, 2021 13:41:39 GMT
I think you’re both trying to say the same thing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2021 5:16:41 GMT
I think the word nefarious was the problem then. The post (in my perspective) sounded predatory, intentional. That's a fair appraisal. The nature of insight and intention is a difficult concept ethically. There was certainly no conscious predatory intent in my actions. But the behaviours are still undesirable and damaging. I have lied, gaslit and manipulated unconsciously when I am triggered both avoidant and anxious. usually out of a feeling of desperation or dissociation, or fear of reprisal when in an abusive relationship. Examples of lying through text would be something like saying: "I didn't answer your text until now because I was at work all day" when in reality I wasn't. I was just overwhelmed and needed space and time to recuperate and think. But because I am a people pleaser I find it difficult to say what I want. So I used lying to circumvent that difficulty. Would you describe that as nefarious. Probably not. But if you get found out it can destroy trust. And if you don't, can create a habit of telling casual lies to avoid difficult conversations. Had time to come back and address this further although I suspect the conversation is dropped. You may consider insight and intention a difficult concept ethically, but for practical matters it's helpful to understand the distinction between intentional, predatory behaviors and insecure, self protective behaviors. The approach to a remedy for such behaviors is shaped by one's understanding of the CAUSE. Behaviors that manifest from insecure, self protective behaviors can be effectively addressed by coaching assertive communication, addressing emotional issues related to insecurity, etc. If a person is acting with predatory intent then that's a different can of worms, when it comes to altering the behaviors. Then, it may be a matter of trying to address a personality disorder or mental illness or something. There is an important distinction here when it comes to how to address the behaviors in the individual and whether or not growth and change is likely. That's why I think the discussion goes beyond "It's harmful whether intentional or not." The conversation also goes beyond the impact of these behaviors on others. And, I think it's also important to try to present these things accurately if there is going to be any discussion at all, so if it's unconscious insecure behavior, let's say that... if it's predatory, intentional behavior, let's say that... the question of ethics aside let's at least just be accurate. |
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Post by krolle on Dec 26, 2021 13:13:52 GMT
That's a fair appraisal. The nature of insight and intention is a difficult concept ethically. There was certainly no conscious predatory intent in my actions. But the behaviours are still undesirable and damaging. I have lied, gaslit and manipulated unconsciously when I am triggered both avoidant and anxious. usually out of a feeling of desperation or dissociation, or fear of reprisal when in an abusive relationship. Examples of lying through text would be something like saying: "I didn't answer your text until now because I was at work all day" when in reality I wasn't. I was just overwhelmed and needed space and time to recuperate and think. But because I am a people pleaser I find it difficult to say what I want. So I used lying to circumvent that difficulty. Would you describe that as nefarious. Probably not. But if you get found out it can destroy trust. And if you don't, can create a habit of telling casual lies to avoid difficult conversations. Had time to come back and address this further although I suspect the conversation is dropped. You may consider insight and intention a difficult concept ethically, but for practical matters it's helpful to understand the distinction between intentional, predatory behaviors and insecure, self protective behaviors. The approach to a remedy for such behaviors is shaped by one's understanding of the CAUSE. Behaviors that manifest from insecure, self protective behaviors can be effectively addressed by coaching assertive communication, addressing emotional issues related to insecurity, etc. If a person is acting with predatory intent then that's a different can of worms, when it comes to altering the behaviors. Then, it may be a matter of trying to address a personality disorder or mental illness or something. There is an important distinction here when it comes to how to address the behaviors in the individual and whether or not growth and change is likely. That's why I think the discussion goes beyond "It's harmful whether intentional or not." The conversation also goes beyond the impact of these behaviors on others. And, I think it's also important to try to present these things accurately if there is going to be any discussion at all, so if it's unconscious insecure behavior, let's say that... if it's predatory, intentional behavior, let's say that... the question of ethics aside let's at least just be accurate. The conversation doesn't have to be dropped if you have more to say. I appreciate these dialogues and I'm sure some others reading will too. I will agree my use of nefarious was not accurate terminology for general avoidance. Perhaps it's just my own understanding of the concepts that are lacking. My problem with terminology and the ethics of "intention" are difficulties knowing what it's really like to "be" somebody else. The limits of empathy. And secondarily, the power of the subconscious/ insight. For example, somebody with NPD might verbally "attack" someone else who criticizes them. But I'm led believe the nature of the disorder is that they lack insight and are doing that out of self defence, due to a poor underlying self esteem. Is that really all that different than somebody who is triggered avoidant and stonewalling or criticizing their partner in order to try to protect themselves? Or from an anxious partner who as you said threatens to leave as a protest behaviour for fear of abandonment? An interesting thought experiment. If lack of insight is a characteristic of many personality disorders how would we know we had one? I mean short of being told by a health professional of course. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that ones subconscious could be "predatory" or selfish, or whatever negative adjective fits, whilst their conscious mind is trying to do the right thing, or more likely unaware they are doing anything all that wrong. It's a difficult subject to gain clarity on in my opinion. But makes for interesting debate. Now I am aware of my own insecure behaviour in recent years, and look back on some of it, I realize it was occasionally disgusting. And very much predatory, possibly abusive, and I honestly wouldnt rule out nefarious as a term that applies, at least to me personally. Though certainly on an unconscious level. I can remember specific examples where I have manipulated, gaslit, lied, targeted, used etc. And remained blissfully unaware for years. But I think you are right, its not simply avoidance, or insecure attachment that makes for the worst behaviours. Its the combination of insecurity, plus the search for external validation/approval which causes the most damage in my opinion. The second part is very important. In you for example, there has obviously been avoidance as a coping strategy in your life. But, although I dont know you personally. I dont sense too much in the way of external validation/approval seeking. So perhaps your behaviour hasnt been quiet so destructive. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2021 13:53:35 GMT
krolle , it certainly could be that you employ or have employed "nefarious" behaviors and motivations more than some, and less than some. I simply am saying I distinguish between personality disordered behaviors and motivations and those of insecurely attached individuals who don't meet criteria for PD. I disagree with you on some points, but don't need to belabor it much. Some PD exhibit such a lack of empathy and even desire for cruelty that debating this ad infinitum is tiresome to me. Dark triad personalities and persons who act with cruel intent exist, I've encountered them and psychology deals with this quite extensively. I personally don't become confused about the differences between their intentions and actions and insecure attachment. However, if you find some kind of enlightenment in doing so then I urge you to continue exploring that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2021 16:43:45 GMT
krolle, to elaborate not on the question but on my position... I think it's not uncommon for a person who is struggling to understand themselves to wonder if they have a personality disorder, especially given the volume of references to PD on the web, including writings by uneducated non-professionals. I've questioned it myself, in earlier days when seeking professional help. Professionals have tools to diagnose personality disorders. The professionals I have worked with include psychologists, licensed therapists, and other credentialed individuals. I've been told that I do not have a personality disorder, having been fully evaluated as part of a custody evaluation for my divorce (and by therapists along the way). So, I don't spend time in deep analysis of the how and why of my issues, I go with the professional opinions rendered to me. That's why I find this kind of debate tiresome, I am not searching for those answers and I have lots of other areas to focus my mental and emotional energy. If you are questioning whether or not you yourself have a personality disorder, I strongly recommend seeking professional evaluation if you haven't already. I believe that professionals who are experts in the field of psychology would be more qualified than you yourself, to determine your status as far as that is concerned. However, if you simply enjoy the debate and exploring these thoughts on your own, I respect that but just choose not to engage due to lack of interest on my part. We all have different reasons for being here and I don't consider that important to me personally.
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Post by krolle on Dec 27, 2021 23:15:57 GMT
I chose to engage with your post before because it seemed like you weren't done with the discussion. And I wrote my response to offer continued interaction relevant to the thread.
But I must admit I get a strong sense of both defensiveness and condescension in your replies. This is not the first time I have felt this with your writing.
Perhaps the fact I enjoy exploring and debating these points is annoying to people, I dont know. But I'm confused as to why someone would be on a forum if not to do that? I was under the impression that the whole point of a forum is to engage in intellectual discussion/debate. Considering the definition of a forum is a place, situation or group where people exchange ideas and discuss issues.
Of course you have no obligation to interact with me, or anyone, if it doesnt suit, and I wont think any less of you. But again, the question begs, why else would someone be on a forum. Personally I find the most value from the threads where people disagree/offer different perspectives, as long as its done respectfully.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2021 0:08:53 GMT
I chose to engage with your post before because it seemed like you weren't done with the discussion. And I wrote my response to offer continued interaction relevant to the thread. But I must admit I get a strong sense of both defensiveness and condescension in your replies. This is not the first time I have felt this with your writing. Perhaps the fact I enjoy exploring and debating these points is annoying to people, I dont know. But I'm confused as to why someone would be on a forum if not to do that? I was under the impression that the whole point of a forum is to engage in intellectual discussion/debate. Considering the definition of a forum is a place, situation or group where people exchange ideas and discuss issues. Of course you have no obligation to interact with me, or anyone, if it doesnt suit, and I wont think any less of you. But again, the question begs, why else would someone be on a forum. Personally I find the most value from the threads where people disagree/offer different perspectives, as long as its done respectfully. Sorry Krolle, it isn't condescension, I truly just don't enjoy debating questions I'm not searching out the answers for. It takes a bit of time to interact on the forum and I find it most rewarding and helpful to ask for input on issues I am currently sorting through, or to encourage and provide feedback to others trying to identify or change their own patterns. The intellectual or abstract threads aren't as interesting or relevant to me, that is all. We just have different interests regarding this kind of analysis. For me it's a question already answered. But others may well enjoy the train of thought, I know there are other posters who enjoy the debate as well. Happy posting! |
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Post by seeking on Dec 28, 2021 0:43:52 GMT
Remember as an FA with significant trust wounds I am constantly scanning with meticulous subconscious detail any threat that you might pose. Every interaction is an intense arms race of trying to work out if you're lying and what you want to take from me/use me for. And perhaps, ashamedly what I can get from you. Or how weak your own boundaries are.
This is so fascinating. My mind is blown.
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