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Post by seeking on Feb 13, 2022 16:26:23 GMT
I feel like this belongs on the FA forum. I do not know why this happened this past week. But I had some huge breakthroughs that I'm still processing.
Basically the "breakthrough" was that I need people. Lol.
Like I'm 50 and it took me this long to realize that?
I wrote a lot in the past week or so about things that were happening here, and all of it seemed to push me toward this "breakdown" one night where I was up in the middle of the night feeling really raw, crying, and realizing that I've been pretty hurt by people (it takes a lot for me to admit this?). It's not just romantic, but friends, family, community even.
I've had so much betrayal and relational PTSD, stemming from my dad. And throughout my life. I tried so hard to "get" that attachment cry met - to say SEE ME, LOVE ME, LIGHT UP ABOUT ME.
And then I did *the work* to do that for myself.
However, that kind of has a limit. I did so much of it for myself, it was like I become a rock, an island. In some ways, it gave me an "I don't need anyone" (i..e, I can prevent myself from being hurt, let down, bewildered, disappointed, exhausted) etc.
And then I realized, after my last LTR, I shut down. That was several years ago. I went through the most trying times of my life for years. And then the pandemic. And so *this week* a few new disappointments, challenges showed up and I like broke down.
It was as if all my self-protection, guarding, bracing, couldn't hold back the hurt anymore.
So the past few days, I've just been slowly processing - I started to see that I do need people (damn) but that in interacting with them, I need to assert myself. I need boundaries. It's gonna get messy, it's gonna hurt. But I am more willing to put myself out there in real ways and fight for certain connections (meaning not just shut down and give up on them) - but yikes.
Anyway, just sharing. FWIW. I appreciate the interactions here and the support I've been given. I think it's really helped, in the past month since I've come back on to this board after a long while, to bring front and center some of this....
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Post by tnr9 on Feb 14, 2022 3:42:26 GMT
I feel like this belongs on the FA forum. I do not know why this happened this past week. But I had some huge breakthroughs that I'm still processing. Basically the "breakthrough" was that I need people. Lol. Like I'm 50 and it took me this long to realize that? I wrote a lot in the past week or so about things that were happening here, and all of it seemed to push me toward this "breakdown" one night where I was up in the middle of the night feeling really raw, crying, and realizing that I've been pretty hurt by people (it takes a lot for me to admit this?). It's not just romantic, but friends, family, community even. I've had so much betrayal and relational PTSD, stemming from my dad. And throughout my life. I tried so hard to "get" that attachment cry met - to say SEE ME, LOVE ME, LIGHT UP ABOUT ME. And then I did *the work* to do that for myself. However, that kind of has a limit. I did so much of it for myself, it was like I become a rock, an island. In some ways, it gave me an "I don't need anyone" (i..e, I can prevent myself from being hurt, let down, bewildered, disappointed, exhausted) etc. And then I realized, after my last LTR, I shut down. That was several years ago. I went through the most trying times of my life for years. And then the pandemic. And so *this week* a few new disappointments, challenges showed up and I like broke down. It was as if all my self-protection, guarding, bracing, couldn't hold back the hurt anymore. So the past few days, I've just been slowly processing - I started to see that I do need people (damn) but that in interacting with them, I need to assert myself. I need boundaries. It's gonna get messy, it's gonna hurt. But I am more willing to put myself out there in real ways and fight for certain connections (meaning not just shut down and give up on them) - but yikes. Anyway, just sharing. FWIW. I appreciate the interactions here and the support I've been given. I think it's really helped, in the past month since I've come back on to this board after a long while, to bring front and center some of this.... I think there is a balance that gets worked out by people who are secure….which is a sense of self that is unshakable and an ability to recognize the need to have adjustable boundaries with others. I marvel at my friends who do that so seamlessly…it is like breathing. I however still shift between adjustable boundaries and walls…..doing better but I still have work in that space. I do want to say that coming to an awareness of the need for people when people (or a person) was the root of so much pain…is a huge victory….but give yourself tons of grace because there are a lot of unaware insecures out there and deep seated hurt and pain can be activated by the most small of inconsiderate words or actions. So be grace giving to yourself as you reach out and pull back. Keep us posted.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2022 4:58:08 GMT
I can relate to this revelation, coming out of avoidance. And when I started integrating myself more with commmunity I learned where my boundaries were too rigid in some areas, not assertive enough in others. I hadn't identified my needs for so long , saw needs as weakness, and really didn't understand what is termed "interdependence", nor did I relate to the experience of feeling healed by and around others. All of that has shifted over time. I think the big difference is that I actually didn't have a circle of friends while feeling cut off from needs- I didn't feel my needs and consequently I preferred more isolation. I could feel a strong need for nature and the solace of being alone. But I couldn't yet feel the need to connect like I do now.
Anyway, relating to some of what you're saying here and I'm really glad that things are starting to shift and move around for you. It's really weird coming to clarity sometimes! And I just don't have words when I look back on how I used to relate. I don't get it. Ha. I certainly can't explain it all. I keep going back to that DA thread in the general section and re-reading every time I go through something pain-growth related and I go "Ohhhhhhhhhh ok, now those words make sense!" when before I would be like "do I do that?". What's cool is that I do a lot of secure things too! We aren't all one way or the other. And hopefully we will all just keep growing together. It's cool.
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Post by seeking on Feb 14, 2022 15:17:02 GMT
I marvel at my friends who do that so seamlessly…it is like breathing. I however still shift between adjustable boundaries and walls…..doing better but I still have work in that space. Care to give an example? I love the metaphor of it being like breathing.
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Post by seeking on Feb 14, 2022 15:36:39 GMT
I do want to say that coming to an awareness of the need for people when people (or a person) was the root of so much pain…is a huge victory….but give yourself tons of grace because there are a lot of unaware insecures out there and deep seated hurt and pain can be activated by the most small of inconsiderate words or actions. So be grace giving to yourself as you reach out and pull back. Keep us posted. This just made me cry. Thank you. Yes, as I wrote this post here, I thought. Geez. My big breakthrough is what most people know and get ALL ALONG?! I also work with clients who are a lot like this and so it will definitely inform my work. It already has in fact. I think that what you said is really solid advice - I can do this (my own work) but as I do, I may inadvertently be triggered by well-meaning (or maybe not) people who have their own issues. That's kind of what happened last week. This good friend - her "style" (whatever it is) really irks me. I can't put a finger on it but I'm guessing it is attachment-related and triggers me. Even my last therapist, come to think of it, was triggering. And recently, I saw myself concluding "Oh this is why I isolate and don't like being around people," but then at the same time realizing that's not an option for me anymore. My daughter, for one, was having a mental health crisis - and it was forcing me to forge relationships and *be around people* - And then what happened with the divorced guy last week, it just sunk me. 90 minutes of a warm, engaged conversation and my heart was just starting to peak out.... and then "talk in a month" and that can feel really hard. (we email regularly now and are talking again tomorrow) But, yes, seeing that deep-seated hurt and pain activated - it was disproportionate to what was really going on. Still lots to process through this lens. But I'm glad that I did 2 things last week - 1) confront my friend who was causing some trouble in our venture and it was hurting me and shutting me down - 2) show enthusiasm with the guy - hey, that was great, let's talk again - and he met me right back. I see my pattern is to close back up and go into victim mode and feel anger - even rage. (not necessarily in these situations but in others).
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Post by seeking on Feb 14, 2022 18:08:25 GMT
Thanks, Introvert - yes, it is cool.
What is starting to pour out of me is the clarity around what happened. It making sense feels like somehow it's solving the puzzle of my life, and also relates back to *everything* seeing how huge it is makes me glad in a way I didn't have more children. I think I'm a great mom, and I'd be an even better one (nurturing, etc) if I had any support.
But yeah, it was my dad. And it wounded me for the rest of my life. I remember - at the height of things - kicking a hole into my boyfriend's coffee table (oddly it was made of a thick cardboard) in my late 20s b/c he was such an avoidant, and wouldn't say he loved me. That was all my dad.
When I was processing this a few weeks ago more intensely, I heard it in my head. LOVE ME. SEE ME. GODDAMIT. ARE YOU THERE? APPRECIATE ME. LIGHT UP FOR ME.
I never got any of that from my dad. He gave it to other people.
So I had and endless stream of boyfriends like that, and then addictions, severe eating disorders, abuse. My whole life.
And then when I realized (after having a kid) I couldn't *do that* anymore - chase unavailable (and often abusive) men, I shut down.
Like the longing to be seen - the attachment cry - just muted. And that energy stayed stuck in my nervous system, made me sick, my kid sick, messed me up even more, created all the things I'm dealing with now (like severe driving anxiety). Isolating, closing off. Etc.
A year ago, the "war" of all that finally stopped after court with my ex ended.
I've done so much healing work, but I've never had the room, the space, to let it filter in -- it's been constant survival mode.
So why it's all hitting me now? I don't know. Maybe I have some stability under me enough to let it sink in. And the work I do in this world reminds me all the time that at the heart of healing is really safety, particularly relational safety.
And it's the first time it's really "clicking" -
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Post by seeking on Feb 14, 2022 21:42:20 GMT
So rather than starting another thread - I'm curious, given my context, if anyone can give input on this.
I didn't want to go into the situation that came up with the friend. But someone who witnessed the whole thing saw it, kind of named it, and it gave me a "no wonder why" I was so triggered.
It really was a betrayal and a little conniving - whether or not she was aware of that, I don't know. Did she do it to hurt me? no. But it definitely sucked. She and I had a discussion (I had to confront her) but it was nothing personal - it resolved stuff (for now) but left me with a bad taste and now distancing myself as a friend.
She is moving (likely) maybe late spring, early summer, so part of me is like maybe just let it go.
But I'm wondering what secure people do - as we were talking about here - that boundaried place of interdependence. Say something?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2022 22:17:18 GMT
I had a falling out with a woman in my social circle because of her consistent violation of boundaries and etiquette expected for the activity we were involved in together. She does admit to having adhd, but the behaviors impacting the group also seemed to be beyond that. I had discussions with her in which she became somewhat defiant and even dishonest, she was doing a little triangulation and some other really toxic stuff, it was pretty much like high school.
I ended up moving on to another social situation, so that I could enjoy the activity without the (high level of!) drama. I see her around a bit and have needed to keep my distance, and I was just letting it go. But I'd been thinking about how I would like to repair between us, woman to woman. Acknowledging to myself that I have my own stuff that contributes to my interactions, and that I want to have boundaries but also be peaceful and gracious. I'm sure I've stepped on toes in my life, and I want the chance to become and be seen as a better person too.
When I saw her recently at an event, I asked her for a little time to speak with her. We moved to a quiet area and I told her that I'd like to extend an olive branch, and make peace between us. I said that I have my own issues that arise and contribute to conflict in my life, and that I see the good in her and would like to support her ambitions in our shared activity. I acknowledged that we all want to feel a sense of belonging, and not alienation, and that I want her to feel like she belongs and is welcome. (Several in the group have turned against her but behind her back, with gossip and such that makes me very uncomfortable. I've put a boundary around that as well, so I can live according to my own values and not go with the crowd).
She was so thankful for the chance to make it right, and she said she was sorry and meant no harm. I assured her that I know she meant no harm, and that we can just put it behind us and enjoy the community we share.
So, all through it I found the ability to confront directly, make choices to control what I could instead of railing against what I couldn't, processed my anger and annoyance and came to a place of reconciliation, and then I approached her directly to facilitate that. I feel peaceful now, and she feels better too.
Just an example of how I view healthy relating- boundaries plus grace and the willingness to forgive. In this case, the woman was genuinely aware and sorry for the disruptions she caused with her social insecurity. She has actually changed her behaviors and grown from it, and now I just want to give her the chance to belong with the rest of us and find camaraderie without the sting of a bad reputation or gossip about her. I can't control what others will do or say, but those that had participated in the mean girl stuff all know the position I've taken, and I sleep well with it.
I could have just left the rift there, we don't need to interact. But that's not how I want to live anymore.
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Post by alexandra on Feb 14, 2022 22:48:55 GMT
It really depends on the rift. If it's patterned behavior, repetitive, the person shuts down, gets defensive, triggered, isn't receptive, can't hear what you say, can't reflect (or doesn't want to), then a secure person is sad but walks away. There may be a conversation to try to set it right before walking away, but they'll still walk away. If the person is someone they still have to see in public or group settings, they'll be polite and amiable (think of it like "professional" behavior) and stay at a distance and not try to rekindle the friendship.
If a significant amount of time has passed after the rift and any attempts to clear the air, and there is noticeable change and you run into each other or they approach you with an apology, then if you feel like you want to have a relationship of some sort with that person, try it out. I just don't really think that most of the time it's worthwhile to fight it and try to reconnect and repair if it was a toxic-leaning pattern prior to that. Even a one-off tantrum maybe be questionable because sometimes people only let out their toxic behaviors around people they get close enough to, so it really depends. My line for that personally involves when people get extremely aggressive over nothing (often this happens when they are drunk and I learn they are angry drunks....) or any 180 degree "totally out of character" behavior that they aren't particularly apologetic for or don't appropriately acknowledge and take responsibility for. Being unaware or apologizing in words but then continuing to repeat the behavior aren't excuses.
What's secure ultimately is deciding on your boundaries and deciding if the trust is gone for you or if the person makes you uncomfortable. Communicating with them, seeing if it changes anything, and letting it go if not.
This is also speaking to your situation, which sounds serious, and isn't for minor slights and disagreements. Everyone has disagreements from time to time, that doesn't need to tank a friendship.
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Post by seeking on Feb 15, 2022 13:56:18 GMT
Thanks alexandra and introvert -
I think this was really nothing personal to me. I also don't have plans to "change" this person's behavior or how things go - although maybe a little - it seems excessive.
But the thing I always know I do is make it my fault first. I'm imagining it, I'm sensitive. I need to toughen up.
However, when this other person observed it and commented, therefore validating it, I felt like - see, this is what I always do. I just don't say anything.
I'm proud of myself though for confronting her on it last week and not making it about me. That was the toughest thing to do - because I was all muddled up in what even was going on but I just kept it logistical. I did make one comment but I think it went over her head - she didn't pick up on it.
I think if it were a more personal relationship, I guess I would say something but it's not. She's a friend but I think it would sound like it's coming out of left field.
Basically, someone posted in a group to start a homeschool coop. Me and another mom stepped forward to get a place (and make it happen) - it was really me. The original woman dropped out (the one who started the idea), the other woman who stepped forward with me also dropped out, and then 2 other women stepped in - one was very quiet and just handled some paperwork. Another had a strong voice around getting things done. And a little on how things should go but we always asked parents how they feel.
People here know my situation - I don't have minutes. Yet, I've now put in probably 25 hours to getting this going. I did it for my kid. She's been struggling hard. I did it for me - a sense of community. Not many others stepped in. This particular friend has a ton of mold sensitivities along with another friend. Both of them have kids that are not in the age group for this co-op. So I figured they simply wouldn't join. I warned them about the possibility of the building having some mold (it's a gorgeous spot) but they said "it'll be fine" which was hard to believe since my house has no mold and they won't even come inside it. They also have a homeschool philosophy that is pretty extreme (versus a more middle-of-the-road style) so I just figured it wouldn't be a fit.
But instead, they came to the first meeting. And they really wanted a say in how things should go. Our first meeting was *wonderful* the kids had fun, my daughter came home thrilled and wishing it could be longer, and we could do it 2 days a week. And I said it could develop into that. I had a feeling I haven't felt in a long time and it was something we really needed, given everything we've been through. It was a lot of work but felt triumphant. And gave me this warm sense (like the connection I've been talking about).
Except their was a crack in things.
These friends came forward to express their distaste in structure. To want to use the basketball courts so they can stay outside and not be in the building. Me and the other mom who stepped up to plate talked about it and that was the week I went into that freeze state. I felt flat. It was really hard and definitely disproportionate to the event at hand, but I didn't really understand what was happening.
An outside friend who is a long-time educator and runs an alternative education program said it must feel like I'm being undermined (it did) and they were working against me.
I recognized that they weren't doing it *to me* or on purpose.
The following week, I stuck with the kids and the other mom held a parent meeting. We knew the line we were going to draw. And after, I went upstairs and she looked a little shocked. I asked how it went and she said it was really tough, that she was glad she was prepared, and it got contentious (?!)
I was so sad about this. My own girls group meets the next day, and suddenly no one came (?)
I wrote to a few of them - this friends I'm talking about, another friend, and the one friend (in question) said she'd come but later. She knew we were going to talk. Again, I kept everything out of it personally about how I felt. We reached some accords (not what I would have wanted but this is about all the parents).
But here is the thing - she is moving. Maybe this spring. We are looking at this as a prospective long-term thing that develops. The other mom who ran the meeting said she felt like if it weren't for her, parents wouldn't have all jumped on board with wanting no structure. She came across strong and was also insulting toward the mom who ran the meeting. Suggesting she hasn't been homeschooling very long and is still "in the system" (my friend said to me "I hope I didn't offend her.") - My friend also went on and on about her son how he is not going to "sit still" for this or "do that" - and I was like, "Right, but he's not in the age group of our co-op. He's a sibling."
Anyway, it really landed on me like a betrayal. That's what I think I strongly reacted to. But I didn't bring that up. That feels like my personal trigger. I also know she wasn't trying to betray me, but she knew I stepped forward in a big way - she did exactly *nothing* to contribute to starting the co-op and then comes in and wants to move everything around - she literally opened ALL the doors and windows last week inside the building - and this other woman said she was freezing. She told the group on facebook they were a "mold-sensitive family" - (I don't think that's necessary) and clearly just wants use of the basketball courts. And when they are out their playing, all the kids want to be out there. That is not why we rented this space. She also shot down any idea about structure because she "unschools"
This is someone who comes across (and has for years) as very mannerly, polite, pleasant, agreeable. Yet.... ?
The thing that I wished she done, and I haven't said to her and don't even know if it's relevant now - is talk to me. She sees me every week and we talk often on messenger. Our girls are friends. Why not just say something to me if you see me running the show here. It felt like she went behind my back. And the other thing that stung, is she was my sense of community too. So it was like a double-whammy - she is in a group or two, we have like-minded stuff around the pandemic. Her husband and I would talk about politics. And he brought us stuff when we had a long-time power outage. We gave each other soup when our families were sick. Its been like that for a long time. This was sort of "out of character" but not?
I don't know. It's just shaken me to my core somehow, and I'm exhausted from how much energy it's cost me with regard to our co-op.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 15:14:07 GMT
I'm sorry that happened, and around a project so important to you and your daughter. It seems that you two have pretty incompatible views and aspirations. If it were me I think I would accept the loss and disappointment and let it go. The emotional piece is painful but there isn't always something we can do, sometimes it's just taking care of our feelings in the healthiest way we can, and accepting the other person and ourselves just don't click. I'm not advising here, just offering my perspective on how I would respond to the situation, having had a conversation about it already.
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Post by seeking on Feb 15, 2022 15:29:20 GMT
Thanks for that introvert. I appreciate your kind of seeing things....
I still owe them a follow-up email on what we talked about and if they're still willing to do what we agreed to - so there is an opportunity to mention it (i.e, something succinct).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 15:36:18 GMT
Thanks for that introvert. I appreciate your kind of seeing things.... I still owe them a follow-up email on what we talked about and if they're still willing to do what we agreed to - so there is an opportunity to mention it (i.e, something succinct). Yeah, it's not a great strategy in intimate relationships to let Hurt Me exit stage left so that I can address practical matters, but I've found that it's a very useful ability in matters of negotiating projects and whatnot. Pragmatic Me is safer in situations where I have strong feelings but little influence and yet still a vested interest in the outcome. I can get with Emotional Me privately and work out the feelings piece, but she doesn't come to the negotiating table in matters like this.
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Post by seeking on Feb 15, 2022 16:05:55 GMT
Yeah, it's not a great strategy in intimate relationships to let Hurt Me exit stage left so that I can address practical matters, but I've found that it's a very useful ability in matters of negotiating projects and whatnot. Pragmatic Me is safer in situations where I have strong feelings but little influence and yet still a vested interest in the outcome. I can get with Emotional Me privately and work out the feelings piece, but she doesn't come to the negotiating table in matters like this. I understand. We've already negotiated without Emotional Me. These are ongoing friends. I feel a bit resentful. Even that feels like a loss and feels hard. So I was thinking I can afford to add in a layer of emotional/relational content it's all about relationship, truly.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 16:43:03 GMT
Yeah, it's not a great strategy in intimate relationships to let Hurt Me exit stage left so that I can address practical matters, but I've found that it's a very useful ability in matters of negotiating projects and whatnot. Pragmatic Me is safer in situations where I have strong feelings but little influence and yet still a vested interest in the outcome. I can get with Emotional Me privately and work out the feelings piece, but she doesn't come to the negotiating table in matters like this. I understand. We've already negotiated without Emotional Me. These are ongoing friends. I feel a bit resentful. Even that feels like a loss and feels hard. So I was thinking I can afford to add in a layer of emotional/relational content it's all about relationship, truly. I'm sorry, I think I got confused about the dynamics, which person is who and whatnot. I didn't realize it was so close in terms of friendship and saw it as moms who parent school kids together- so more distant and acquaintance like. Perhaps just what I think of when it comes to schooling kids as I am not a home schooler. It's a very different community I think? So yes, I can see where you would want to bring up the emotional piece. Sorry!
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