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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2022 2:21:51 GMT
It's so interesting to read about how these things feel from a more avoidant point of view. It's so great that you can put words and awareness around it. It also makes me see that there are so many similarities between AP and DA ways of relating, but the flavours just come out differently. I worked with a kinesiologist recently to work on my reactions to when someone shuts down or withdraws, particularly after I've been vulnerable or shared something of myself. But actually any type of shut down or withdrawal has the potential to send me to the typical AP way of thinking - that it's about me, my fault, I'm being rejected, abandoned etc. She helped me to come up with some words to focus on in those moments... we came up with 'relaxation, curiosity, flow, surrender'... and somehow those words are actually coming into my brain when I am feeling unsure about why someone is relating to me in the way they are. I'm trying to just take a few breaths and remain in the moment (relax) and think about it from the other person's perspective, and ask a few more gentle questions to understand it (curiosity)... and remember that if someone has a problem with me and how I'm showing up, it's up to them to let me know (flow/surrender), not for me to start relentlessly digging to find proof of something that affirms the story that it's my fault, I'm not good enough, or the connection is under threat. I really like this!! I can see my boyfriend get really uncomfortable sometimes and I know that he's a bit triggered by my behavior. And I KNOW wheh O get triggered and he doesn't understand it at all. At times, either one or both of us may get triggered into insecurity and I see it being pretty similar like you do. I'm sure there are key differences as far as the narrative behind it, and it produces different defensive v behaviors- but insecure is insecure. BTW today I recognized he probably feels pushed off because I've not been feeling well, I've had a lot of plates spinning and I haven't been present enough. He's being very supportive but I know he's bruised. So I called him to tell him I see that and I want to connect and get some down time with him tomorrow. He appreciated that, and what I know for a fact now is, I need that too. I really hope that you find a partner who will look out for you and give you reassurance you need, in addition to working on your own self soothing. I don't think you have to have it perfect- I think we all need someone to help us out a bit and be aware in a healthy, supportive sense. The kind of awareness that sees the need of the other person and can meet it, because they want to. All of us can benefit from that, AP and FA and DA all. I don't think we have to get all secure, there is a certain point at which the balance tips and you can really grow in a relationship from there. My experience, anyway. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2022 2:38:43 GMT
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Post by sunrisequest on May 5, 2022 8:03:53 GMT
Fantastic discussion here. I find quite a bit of difference from how the FA mind operates compared to the DA mind, at least my experience of the DA mind in me. I don't (or didn't )do near as much thinking about things, not as much mental chess and I think it's about just sliding into avoidance without as much anxiety mixed in to complicate it. I don't know that I'm saying that well, but in general I am always surprised by the level of detail that you guys can articulate and I have to think really hard to get to the nitty gritty. I know I did read that in the Healing DA thread- don't ask a DA why they did something because they are really going to struggle with that. Because we aren't used to being in touch with that. So I can look back at things in hindsight and understand some things but not at the detailed level that AP and FA seem to be able to articulate. Also, I tend to think that with the single-person psychology of a DA there is a lot less to think about- that awareness of the other person just isn't nearly as acute. The story about one-person psychology system that Stan Tatkin relates is so relatable to me. I have to say I agree with this. You guys are definitely discussing things with a level of depth and awareness that is quite impressive to read and I'm having to focus quite hard to get it all, but it's giving me food for thought. I can see that I overshare/have overshared for different reasons and with different thought processes behind it - usually to force connection too quickly and make someone come towards me rather than hope they'll back off. But ultimately as you say, it comes from a similar place - insecurity. I think I only tend to do it when I very first meet someone, like maybe the first time. The difference between my ex DA husband and my ex FA BF is huge. Night and day. Funnily enough, I think nearly 20 years with my ex husband pulled me much closer to being secure without me even knowing anything about attachment styles at the time. There are certain qualities about him that I really valued - like how he'd always let an argument go the second I apologised, and it would never be mentioned again. And how he supported me to have time to myself without it ever being an issue. He also had a simplicity of thinking that was a great counter-balance to my often over-analytical side. He was super black and white about when I had problems in my life - 'deal with it by saying how you feel, or let it go and don't complain about it any more'. I think over time, I was able to adopt some of these ways of thinking, and it really took the edge off my anxious traits. I learned to be so much more independent... and although it took me a veerrrrrrry long time to get this, I learned that I don't have a right to demand that my partner tells me how he feels. And I don't have the right to use my partner as a dumping ground for all of my worries and problems. That the relationship needs to be taken care of and protected. I find this is such a hard balance to achieve - to share enough of myself so that I'm being honest and authentic, speaking up when I'm genuinely sad or I need something or when someone has done something hurtful that I want to address, but not nitpicking at every little thing, and not using the other person as a way to ease anxiety and get validation. This is something I want to think about a bit more... it's where problems seem to come up for me, and I'm unsure whether that's because I'm not getting that balance right, or whether I've just had partners who have a big avoidant side, and my open communication is something that unsettled them full stop. I guess this is something to constantly work on when we're in a relationship. I'm glad you're taking time to have a rest and connect with your BF @introverttemporary - I sure do understand how it is when you're spinning all the plates and you're not feeling your best, and how it's so hard to consider how to keep adding energy into your relationship in those moments, but I'm sure it would have felt really nice to him that you reached out and said those words. Sometimes that's all it takes, a simple, I see you, I appreciate you. Let's take some time to be together... #relationshipgoals!! |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2022 12:21:37 GMT
I think I read somewhere that when you've had trauma, there's a need to tell the story and you need to tell it over and over again in order to process or receive support or something, you need to relate it a number of times before you're ready to let go. I can't remember exactly what that was. But it could be the reason someone might be compelled to share, just being in trauma and having unresolved feelings, and unmet needs for support. So, without an objective other than to be heard and if a person seems available for that. I don't think we can always know why we do something, but maybe that's my simplistic thinking- motive can be important but I've learned more to go with how it feels to me... does it feel safe? does it feel icky? what happened next? and then there are those lightening thoughts that sorgin mentioned, that we suppress. I remember feeling more at home with messed up people. I didn't feel I fit or belonged with people who seemed to have it all together. I also had NO concept of the kind of closeness that people were seeking, it might be hard to miss but DA actually are not that purpose driven in relationships because we really truly undervalue them. I wouldn't say there is a whole lot of maneuvering other than staying apart from it all a bit. That's what feels most natural. I never put a lot of energy into bonding and doing relationship in my earlier life because I didn't get it, it just wasn't in my awareness what relationship really means. It's always been way more of a practical matter for me, until more recently in my life. Now I get the emotional aspect and the richness and meaning of it. But back then? Just sliding along in my avoidant groove is what I did and a lot of stuff seemed pointless or annoying to me. I still tend to be clear cut about decisions or issues and that's a problem for AP's. My boyfriend seems to appreciate how I can drill down to the heart of a matter, where it comes to a choice. Like with the complaining thing- if there is an issue with a person I'm either accepting it or I'm not. I'm either saying no or I'm saying yes, if I haven't said no I'm by default saying yes and that's on me. So I watch him in difficult situations with people and he's having a more difficult time actually sticking the landing with saying no to behavior that isn't ok with him- he will make boundaries and then pull them back and give too many chances. I tend to get to that point of being so certain what I can and can't do, will or won't do, it becomes very concrete. Navigating things has usually always come down to practical considerations and action steps. Of course emotions may be involved but even then... there's only so much emotion you can have before it's becoming just a way to hurt or use up energy or stop yourself from getting to other things. I don't have the mental/emotional energy for high drain situations. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2022 12:26:40 GMT
And- I get that goes with the avoidant way of not accepting negative emotions- just referenced above. But it's in the wiring. I've learned to work through things but I still simplify but reducing negativity around me. Reducing negativity is a huge drive throughout my life, if I were to put it simply. Not increasing positivity... just reducing negativity.
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Post by sunrisequest on May 6, 2022 1:04:19 GMT
I totally see why there are benefits to this pragmatic way of operating and thinking. There's a lot to be said for simplicity and not going into the hows and wheres of everything and agonising over all the options. There is always going to be a need for people who see all the shades of grey, and there's also a big need for people who can cut through the emotional layers of things and be decisive. There is beauty and necessity in that kind of diversity. The irony is that as much as AP/DA sides trigger each other and get into these damaging patterns and dances, there is so much amazing healing that can be done if both sides just found a way to communicate in a healthy way and share their strengths. Find a way to balance in harmony. But that's the hard part, and there needs to be a good baseline of trust before you can enter that kind of growing and healing partnership.
I'm glad that you're finding some reward of going deeper into an emotional connection, but it's something that comes to you when you're ready I imagine. When you feel safe and supported?
I can see so clearly the DA way of reducing negativity being a huge driver - my DA ex husband was ALL about that. Reducing any drama, avoiding any upset, pretending things weren't happening so it would go away, appearing to be quite repulsed by any strong negative emotion that I expressed. It really is at the heart of everything he does. Which honestly was hard to live with as I did feel very unsupported, but as I say, I probably made it feel stressful for him because of how frequently and intensely I felt the need to share what was going on in my head.
Also agree about the comment you made about trauma needing to come out that leads to oversharing. That is 100% something that was happening to me some years back, and I knew I was doing it and I felt shitty about it. But I didn't have the support network at the time, and things spilled out sometimes. I feel so different now though... recent breakup aside... I feel more secure and supported than ever... similar to you, I often surrounded myself with people who had a lot of issues, or who didn't give equally into the friendship. Since I let all that go and spent time getting to know myself, prioritising myself, all these amazing women and friends have stepped in. I am literally thankful every day for the changing of that tide.
I like what you said though about not always needing to know where things come from, but learning to tune into the body and listen to how something feels. I'm massively interested in this side of us as humans, the connection we have to ourselves, and how to nurture ourselves and love ourselves, and give ourselves this acceptance that we must have missed somewhere along the way in childhood. Brene Brown says that we can only have a connection with others to the depth that we have a connection with ourselves. And I really think this is so true.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2022 2:58:41 GMT
I totally see why there are benefits to this pragmatic way of operating and thinking. There's a lot to be said for simplicity and not going into the hows and wheres of everything and agonising over all the options. There is always going to be a need for people who see all the shades of grey, and there's also a big need for people who can cut through the emotional layers of things and be decisive. There is beauty and necessity in that kind of diversity. The irony is that as much as AP/DA sides trigger each other and get into these damaging patterns and dances, there is so much amazing healing that can be done if both sides just found a way to communicate in a healthy way and share their strengths. Find a way to balance in harmony. But that's the hard part, and there needs to be a good baseline of trust before you can enter that kind of growing and healing partnership. I'm glad that you're finding some reward of going deeper into an emotional connection, but it's something that comes to you when you're ready I imagine. When you feel safe and supported? I can see so clearly the DA way of reducing negativity being a huge driver - my DA ex husband was ALL about that. Reducing any drama, avoiding any upset, pretending things weren't happening so it would go away, appearing to be quite repulsed by any strong negative emotion that I expressed. It really is at the heart of everything he does. Which honestly was hard to live with as I did feel very unsupported, but as I say, I probably made it feel stressful for him because of how frequently and intensely I felt the need to share what was going on in my head. Also agree about the comment you made about trauma needing to come out that leads to oversharing. That is 100% something that was happening to me some years back, and I knew I was doing it and I felt shitty about it. But I didn't have the support network at the time, and things spilled out sometimes. I feel so different now though... recent breakup aside... I feel more secure and supported than ever... similar to you, I often surrounded myself with people who had a lot of issues, or who didn't give equally into the friendship. Since I let all that go and spent time getting to know myself, prioritising myself, all these amazing women and friends have stepped in. I am literally thankful every day for the changing of that tide. I like what you said though about not always needing to know where things come from, but learning to tune into the body and listen to how something feels. I'm massively interested in this side of us as humans, the connection we have to ourselves, and how to nurture ourselves and love ourselves, and give ourselves this acceptance that we must have missed somewhere along the way in childhood. Brene Brown says that we can only have a connection with others to the depth that we have a connection with ourselves. And I really think this is so true. Yes, there are positives about the traits of each style. In my relationship a very noticeable difference between he and I is the way that we think and communicate. He does a lot of speculating in conversation... hypotheticals and maybe this maybe that... not as options but in anazlysis of someone or something and what may or may not happen. It is very hard for me to be patient with that although I try my best. He knows that I do not speculate, I ascertain what I need to know by asking, looking up, confirming, gaining actionable information. If I do not know something concretely I will not assume either way... I won't put mental energy into it I will count it as something I do not know. If I need to proceed without information I will mentally/emotionally prepare for two outcomes, hope for the best but be prepared for the worst . So I make as much preparation as I practically can and then get decisive. I do my planning this way, deal with problems this way, I gather and act. It's the same way with boundaries. If I have a limit I will enforce it and I've learned to do that assertively, and without flinching. I can be kind and firm at the same time. I like this in myself and I am happy with the relationships I have in business, with my kids, with my partner, etc. My boyfriend has said that he appreciates that he always knows where he stands with me. That's how it is NOW. But I can tell you; that dismissive way of ignoring problems isn't conscious or intentional. Well it is a little bit as in, it is an attitude we have consciously BUT... there is this phenomenon of something that goes on inside that mutes things. It's actually alarming the amount of muting and numbing that happens without even trying. It's physiological! So imagine you hear something and it provokes anxiety... then you begin to worry and obsess or ruminate on it. For me, if I heard something that provoked some kind of anxiety or discomfort I would just think "No, not good" then somehow minimize it mentally in order to cope and before I knew it it was somehow not a big deal, I didn't feel it. That's a survival mechanism and it's really not good. I mean it spares you for some time but problems almost always come to collect and we all know what happens when you can't grasp the severity or the importance of them. They get bigger. Just like an anxious person makes a small problem bigger through their anxiety, the problem can actually grow because of anxious actions ... a dismissive can let problems get big with their avoidance and I am sure you are familiar with that. It's very painful to realize the things I was unable to address because I was shut down. Not with my partner, with my kids. I have had to grieve ways that I let them down when I couldn't do better. The good news is this... we are doing great. Over the past few years we have really grown in awareness as a family and I am able to really be present and supportive. They all tell me how much they love that about me and it feels good to be able to do that now. I've had to go through a process of healing and they have too, it's necessary for anyone parenting with an insecure attachment style. These days I think I have a pretty healthy balance of dealing/letting go. I have a lot of stability and peace in my life, and that's a huge blessing with having two teens and two young adults starting families. My 3rd grandbaby was born today, BTW!! Had to throw that in there - it's amazing to be fully present in my life, it's very rich. Challenging sometimes but rich and I feel satisfied. Any ability to be in touch with real inner self and my ability to be in touch with others grew together, in tandem. And then as you've said, a new kind of presence came into my life in the form of loving supportive people. The inside matches the outside, the outside matches the inside. I get that now. Having grand babies is an incredible experience. Holding them, being with them is like meditation. You get to witness their innocence and the wonder of these beautiful little lives, and it makes you realize that we all are that, inside. It's where we began. They are us and we are them. That's been an amazing discovery. I digress. Sorry haha! |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2022 3:04:09 GMT
Oh and I went through a difficult period of my life blurting out my trauma. It was with women that I work with, and I am really glad that they were there and so supportive. I count it as part of what I needed as I got more connected with people. I've heard that DA go through and FA-ish stage as they come out of dismissive and move toward more secure. I do see that as I look back. And also there was trauma in that chapter, so it all makes sense to me. That's when I was involved with a narcissist too! What a tumultuous time. Glad that's done and gone. He still reaches out and I'm amazed I ever got hooked into that mess!!
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2022 3:08:30 GMT
sunrisequest I really enjoy reading about your process and what's happening in your transformation, it's really wonderful!
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Post by sunrisequest on May 6, 2022 8:48:55 GMT
Wow, that's amazing, congratulations!!! A new baby in the family is such a happy event. I hope you all enjoy getting to know the new bub. I can imagine the excitement of a grandchild.. though those days are a little bit further away for me, my kids are still very young. 'Rich and satisfying' are good ways to describe life. I believe it's meant to be challenging, but it sounds like you have developed all the awareness and skills you need to have rewarding relationships in all facets of your life. What a wonderful place to be.
I appreciate your description of what it's like for a DA to process something negative. 'No, not good'... I had to laugh a little actually because I can imagine that is such an accurate description of the amount of words my Ex-H would use in his head, too. I had no idea how stressful it must have been for him to have me flapping around offering all of the various outcomes and fears I had. I would literally wait in the kitchen for him to get home and then...unleash! Poor guy.
Yep, yep, yep, I do know exactly what you're talking about when you say that problems get bigger when they are avoided... it's how my whole marriage went and it's also how it ended. My involvement with a narcissist was actually non-romantic, but the trauma was very real for me. I was suffering so much from being bullied and abused by this person and because my ex-H was so deep in avoidance, he couldn't support me, and in fact just kept trying to encourage me to think in his terms, which was to ignore it and pretend it wasn't happening (which is like telling an AP not to breathe!). His whole family are avoidant and enmeshed and so they all wanted me to just ignore it. It's kind of similar to what you were saying in one of your previous posts about watching hate and abuse going on in these boards and nobody said anything... well that's how I felt, that a whole group of people who were meant to be my family watched me being attacked on a regular basis, and nobody said anything at all, not even to see if I was okay. And therefore enabled it to continue and get worse and worse.
After a few years of trying to fix it, upskill my communication, put myself back together after each attack... I hit my rock bottom and I was a complete mess.. but then somehow on the floor there I found myself... I know that sounds dramatic, but it's like I had nothing left to lose, and some of those layers of anxiety that made me want to do the right thing and please the group just fell away, so I decided to do the only thing that would allow me to survive, and that was to exit the group dynamic completely.
That's when I learned how to do boundaries and how to let go of toxic people and habits and basically everything that didn't serve me any more. I lost so much in that process, but I'm reaping the rewards now.
It's been great to hear your story too! I'm taking all of this in and learning lots... the biggest thing that is becoming clear to me is that someone's attachment is not something to live and die by in terms of dating and relationships - someone's capacity for self reflection and clear communication and their ability to learn and grow is actually way more important. I'm actually feeling quite hopeful for when I decide to enter the dating game again.
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Post by sunrisequest on May 6, 2022 8:52:35 GMT
Sorry for hijacking this thread sorgin! |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2022 14:37:11 GMT
Wow, that's amazing, congratulations!!! A new baby in the family is such a happy event. I hope you all enjoy getting to know the new bub. I can imagine the excitement of a grandchild.. though those days are a little bit further away for me, my kids are still very young. 'Rich and satisfying' are good ways to describe life. I believe it's meant to be challenging, but it sounds like you have developed all the awareness and skills you need to have rewarding relationships in all facets of your life. What a wonderful place to be. I appreciate your description of what it's like for a DA to process something negative. 'No, not good'... I had to laugh a little actually because I can imagine that is such an accurate description of the amount of words my Ex-H would use in his head, too. I had no idea how stressful it must have been for him to have me flapping around offering all of the various outcomes and fears I had. I would literally wait in the kitchen for him to get home and then...unleash! Poor guy. Yep, yep, yep, I do know exactly what you're talking about when you say that problems get bigger when they are avoided... it's how my whole marriage went and it's also how it ended. My involvement with a narcissist was actually non-romantic, but the trauma was very real for me. I was suffering so much from being bullied and abused by this person and because my ex-H was so deep in avoidance, he couldn't support me, and in fact just kept trying to encourage me to think in his terms, which was to ignore it and pretend it wasn't happening (which is like telling an AP not to breathe!). His whole family are avoidant and enmeshed and so they all wanted me to just ignore it. It's kind of similar to what you were saying in one of your previous posts about watching hate and abuse going on in these boards and nobody said anything... well that's how I felt, that a whole group of people who were meant to be my family watched me being attacked on a regular basis, and nobody said anything at all, not even to see if I was okay. And therefore enabled it to continue and get worse and worse. After a few years of trying to fix it, upskill my communication, put myself back together after each attack... I hit my rock bottom and I was a complete mess.. but then somehow on the floor there I found myself... I know that sounds dramatic, but it's like I had nothing left to lose, and some of those layers of anxiety that made me want to do the right thing and please the group just fell away, so I decided to do the only thing that would allow me to survive, and that was to exit the group dynamic completely. That's when I learned how to do boundaries and how to let go of toxic people and habits and basically everything that didn't serve me any more. I lost so much in that process, but I'm reaping the rewards now. It's been great to hear your story too! I'm taking all of this in and learning lots... the biggest thing that is becoming clear to me is that someone's attachment is not something to live and die by in terms of dating and relationships - someone's capacity for self reflection and clear communication and their ability to learn and grow is actually way more important. I'm actually feeling quite hopeful for when I decide to enter the dating game again. That doesn't sound dramatic at all to me. Really. I think I have the same family as him and the house could burn down around us and they would be like "It's a little warm, but then again it's warm lots of places..." I went through a similar long process of discovering they are really toxic for me. I am HSP and so perhaps my sensitivity created the difference between me and my avoidant family. I started exploring self help in various ways when I was in my 20's, they were all in church but I'm not religious. Their religion resulted in a net zero change over decades. At least none that I can see. I feel really sad about that, but there is nothing I can do but save myself. They didn't want to hear the stuff K learned along the way. I did try to share it, until I gave up because they thought that what I really needed was church. Different strokes for different folks, I had to separate myself from them as well because the pain and toxicity of my family can't support me either. And I did need that over the years. For a long time they were essentially all I had, and that's kind of how these toxic family systems work. I was able to break free and create my new "family" with healthy connections. |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2022 14:43:44 GMT
sunrisequest And I agree with your last paragraph, about the traits you listed being the critical ones for relationship. Once you possess these yourself, you can recognize them in someone else, and all of this becomes less mysterious. It sounds like you are doing great and have grown so much through your terrible experiences. That's very powerful when you can overcome what you've been through and let it shape you into a truer version of yourself. It's amazing to me to look back and not really recognize the me I used to be... I feel compassion for her but also some embarrassment. But, I can forgive, and remind myself that I was doing the very best I could, then. I had so little to work with, came from a very dysfunctional family, and I just had a lot of barriers to being healthy. I know for sure that my little family now has a much better environment to thrive in. Can't ask for more than that.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2022 14:49:16 GMT
Sorry for hijacking this thread sorgin ! Oh man I'm sorry too! 😬 |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2022 15:01:55 GMT
sunrisequest DA's benefit from instrumental support more than emotional support under stress. And also don't focus on the emotions more than knowing why they do or do not want to move a certain direction. (As in, X is unsustainable because of these reasons and therefor I will make these adjustments and see how that works and feels.) Also will tend to offer practical and instrumental help , which is what we prefer too but obviously isn't what everybody needs. This is probably the biggest grind between an unaware AP and unaware DA, is the approach to feelings and problem solving. Both need to move to the middle.
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