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Post by sunrisequest on May 12, 2022 6:57:09 GMT
sunrisequest And I agree with your last paragraph, about the traits you listed being the critical ones for relationship. Once you possess these yourself, you can recognize them in someone else, and all of this becomes less mysterious. It sounds like you are doing great and have grown so much through your terrible experiences. That's very powerful when you can overcome what you've been through and let it shape you into a truer version of yourself. It's amazing to me to look back and not really recognize the me I used to be... I feel compassion for her but also some embarrassment. But, I can forgive, and remind myself that I was doing the very best I could, then. I had so little to work with, came from a very dysfunctional family, and I just had a lot of barriers to being healthy. I know for sure that my little family now has a much better environment to thrive in. Can't ask for more than that. Thank you so much for sharing your story @introverttemporary - I've honestly found it fascinating, and I'm so glad for you that you're able to look back and see how much has changed, and how much better off you are now that you've learned to love and accept yourself and the benefits that your family are receiving from all the work you've done. You should be proud! Yes, we are all just doing the best we can do with the resources that we have got in front of us so we need to really view our past with a compassionate lens. That's a big one for me. I can sometimes be tough on myself when I mess up. I'm really going to keep that in mind about the difference in AP/DA communication and the approaches to problem solving. I did notice in my last relationship that I started off in conflict/problem solving moments in a pragmatic, calm, balanced and non-emotional way. I didn't do that as much in the beginning parts of my marriage and so I felt really good about this evolvement of my communication. But because he leaned very anxious and also because he struggled with me setting boundaries and directly expressing my needs etc, he would dig into those conversations so hard (such a taste of my old AP behaviour!) and I would sometimes allow the conversations to go on and on, him getting really frustrated and saying hurtful things, which caused me to want to withdraw (even if I didn't I wanted to!). A lot of damage is done in those moments and it was mostly unnecessary. For my next relationship, I feel I'll be able to fine-tune this even more, and lean away from justifying and rolling around with a point that I have already expressed really clearly. And spend the rest of the time trying to validate and listen.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2022 13:04:24 GMT
sunrisequest And I agree with your last paragraph, about the traits you listed being the critical ones for relationship. Once you possess these yourself, you can recognize them in someone else, and all of this becomes less mysterious. It sounds like you are doing great and have grown so much through your terrible experiences. That's very powerful when you can overcome what you've been through and let it shape you into a truer version of yourself. It's amazing to me to look back and not really recognize the me I used to be... I feel compassion for her but also some embarrassment. But, I can forgive, and remind myself that I was doing the very best I could, then. I had so little to work with, came from a very dysfunctional family, and I just had a lot of barriers to being healthy. I know for sure that my little family now has a much better environment to thrive in. Can't ask for more than that. Thank you so much for sharing your story @introverttemporary - I've honestly found it fascinating, and I'm so glad for you that you're able to look back and see how much has changed, and how much better off you are now that you've learned to love and accept yourself and the benefits that your family are receiving from all the work you've done. You should be proud! Yes, we are all just doing the best we can do with the resources that we have got in front of us so we need to really view our past with a compassionate lens. That's a big one for me. I can sometimes be tough on myself when I mess up. I'm really going to keep that in mind about the difference in AP/DA communication and the approaches to problem solving. I did notice in my last relationship that I started off in conflict/problem solving moments in a pragmatic, calm, balanced and non-emotional way. I didn't do that as much in the beginning parts of my marriage and so I felt really good about this evolvement of my communication. But because he leaned very anxious and also because he struggled with me setting boundaries and directly expressing my needs etc, he would dig into those conversations so hard (such a taste of my old AP behaviour!) and I would sometimes allow the conversations to go on and on, him getting really frustrated and saying hurtful things, which caused me to want to withdraw (even if I didn't I wanted to!). A lot of damage is done in those moments and it was mostly unnecessary. For my next relationship, I feel I'll be able to fine-tune this even more, and lean away from justifying and rolling around with a point that I have already expressed really clearly. And spend the rest of the time trying to validate and listen. Well I think that emotion has a place in discussions and I certainly can get emotional too... so I hope you don't feel you have to alter yourself too much and it's more about the skills of communication. There's a lot lacking there for a DA there as you know and being able to be open to the others experience is lacking in both. When I first came here one of my early posts was seeking information about how to communicate better. My style was unintentionally hurtful to him. His style was unintentionally hurtful to me, and we were frustrated with each other and it was a revolving problem. We've since done some learning and making efforts toward better, more helpful and secure communication. There's a ton of great resources on the web about that, we printed some out and went over it together. We still hit some snags now and then but there is much improvement. I've just posted a link to a video that addresses the inner critic, mine was triggered at Mother's Day as I had a problematic relationship with my mother who was very harshly critical. Take a look, it's a great video and one to return to if you find yourself beating yourself up!
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2022 13:41:27 GMT
sunrisequest And I agree with your last paragraph, about the traits you listed being the critical ones for relationship. Once you possess these yourself, you can recognize them in someone else, and all of this becomes less mysterious. It sounds like you are doing great and have grown so much through your terrible experiences. That's very powerful when you can overcome what you've been through and let it shape you into a truer version of yourself. It's amazing to me to look back and not really recognize the me I used to be... I feel compassion for her but also some embarrassment. But, I can forgive, and remind myself that I was doing the very best I could, then. I had so little to work with, came from a very dysfunctional family, and I just had a lot of barriers to being healthy. I know for sure that my little family now has a much better environment to thrive in. Can't ask for more than that. Thank you so much for sharing your story @introverttemporary - I've honestly found it fascinating, and I'm so glad for you that you're able to look back and see how much has changed, and how much better off you are now that you've learned to love and accept yourself and the benefits that your family are receiving from all the work you've done. You should be proud! Yes, we are all just doing the best we can do with the resources that we have got in front of us so we need to really view our past with a compassionate lens. That's a big one for me. I can sometimes be tough on myself when I mess up. I'm really going to keep that in mind about the difference in AP/DA communication and the approaches to problem solving. I did notice in my last relationship that I started off in conflict/problem solving moments in a pragmatic, calm, balanced and non-emotional way. I didn't do that as much in the beginning parts of my marriage and so I felt really good about this evolvement of my communication. But because he leaned very anxious and also because he struggled with me setting boundaries and directly expressing my needs etc, he would dig into those conversations so hard (such a taste of my old AP behaviour!) and I would sometimes allow the conversations to go on and on, him getting really frustrated and saying hurtful things, which caused me to want to withdraw (even if I didn't I wanted to!). A lot of damage is done in those moments and it was mostly unnecessary. For my next relationship, I feel I'll be able to fine-tune this even more, and lean away from justifying and rolling around with a point that I have already expressed really clearly. And spend the rest of the time trying to validate and listen. I relate to the problem of allowing a conversation to go on too long, rolling around with a point you've already expressed really clearly. There does seem to be something in anxious communication that causes stated points to become irrelevant and I don't have a clear view into that or how to handle it other than to decline to repeat myself or listen to repetitive talking points.
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Post by alexandra on May 13, 2022 18:21:10 GMT
They're not getting disregarded as irrelevant. The anxious person isn't finding adequate resolution to getting their needs met and think there's still a negotiation going on that will improve if they can just find the right way to communicate whatever they're trying to say. So it's a combination of not being connected to themselves enough to feel they're communicating their needs properly in the first place combined with looking for the magic formula for the perfect way to state their needs to change the outcome to one they want.
So handling it may look like saying something that eases the triggered abandonment fear ("even though we're disagreeing about this, people have disagreements and work through them, I'm not going anywhere") while still keeping your own boundary for what you're saying ("that being said, we're at an impasse so let's sleep on this and revisit it once everyone has processed what the other person shared and has had more time to think it through"). Or that may not worth depending on how anxious the person is, but I think it's an approach that both acknowledges the anxious partner while protecting the boundaries of self in a way that de-escalates and promotes working together without co-dependent mind reading. It's not dismissing the conversation or their feelings outright, but it's stopping the looping until a later time you can problem solve more productively. As long as it's actually used for time to process and not as a stalling and avoidance tactic to never finish the conversation or conflict resolution.
And it does lead to possibly accepting that if this happens a lot nothing ever gets solved, the anxious person can't problem solve because they're always abandoning self even after the trigger passed or you simply don't want the same things so the issues keep coming up without solution, then it may not be a compatible match.
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Post by alexandra on May 13, 2022 18:27:39 GMT
It may also help to repeat back what you heard them say so they feel acknowledged and heard prior to then recommending a conversation pause. Or they may use it to learn more about how you're not hearing what they're trying to say because THEY need to learn to communicate better, so if they're introspective enough, there may be communication growth.
But I've also seen it used as an excuse to say, you don't understand what I'm saying! when you perfectly do understand, but they're extremely anxious and you're not giving them the answer they wanted. I've been on the receiving end of that from a very immature AP, and after it happened multiple times repetitively about different topics over a couple weeks, it meant he was not the person for me. The conversations in question were all about things for which his insistence showed a complete disregard for my boundaries. (This was when I'd almost earned secure but was not 100% there, but started attracting APs on internet dating lol.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2022 22:19:08 GMT
I've noticed it a little here on the forum, and at some points with more triggery conflict earlier in my own relationship. Sometimes I think it's about the anxious person being convinced they know the internal workings of the other party, and don't accept input that doesn't support the narrative. So that's where I relate to what sunrisequest said, in my own experience of feeling pressured to justify myself or even defend myself instead of letting my voice be adequate, doing the best I can to offer clarity and then setting a boundary around any circular rehashing as it's counterproductive and frustrating and never leads to anything but further escalation. I agree that a continued pattern of this without improvement would constitute incompatibility, though. My challenge in it has been to understand what's happening and create my own parameters for it, improving my own communication but having limits and enforcing them, too. Typically growth can be found on both sides of such a problem if people are self aware enough, and if not then issues like this are just the tip of the iceberg.
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Post by sunrisequest on May 14, 2022 4:52:14 GMT
They're not getting disregarded as irrelevant. The anxious person isn't finding adequate resolution to getting their needs met and think there's still a negotiation going on that will improve if they can just find the right way to communicate whatever they're trying to say. So it's a combination of not being connected to themselves enough to feel they're communicating their needs properly in the first place combined with looking for the magic formula for the perfect way to state their needs to change the outcome to one they want. So handling it may look like saying something that eases the triggered abandonment fear ("even though we're disagreeing about this, people have disagreements and work through them, I'm not going anywhere") while still keeping your own boundary for what you're saying ("that being said, we're at an impasse so let's sleep on this and revisit it once everyone has processed what the other person shared and has had more time to think it through"). Or that may not worth depending on how anxious the person is, but I think it's an approach that both acknowledges the anxious partner while protecting the boundaries of self in a way that de-escalates and promotes working together without co-dependent mind reading. It's not dismissing the conversation or their feelings outright, but it's stopping the looping until a later time you can problem solve more productively. As long as it's actually used for time to process and not as a stalling and avoidance tactic to never finish the conversation or conflict resolution. And it does lead to possibly accepting that if this happens a lot nothing ever gets solved, the anxious person can't problem solve because they're always abandoning self even after the trigger passed or you simply don't want the same things so the issues keep coming up without solution, then it may not be a compatible match. So this is the thing isn't it... abandonment wounds get triggered so easily in any type of problem solving situation with someone who is very anxious. Being with someone who is way more anxious than me has really helped me to see the dynamics of this so clearly, and I'm actually so grateful that I've been able to experience it this way around, to get an insight into my own tendencies. I follow a guy on Instagram who talks about the ideas of radical responsibility, where you really look at how you can show up in your highest self in moments of conflict and not disconnect when your body is screaming at you to walk away. I find it interesting to think about this... I think it's an approach that can wield incredible results with the right person - but it does require a partner who has the ability to soothe themselves enough to actually hear what you're saying and come back from the ledge as it were... but some people are SO anxious/avoidant that it's almost impossible to say anything that will get through, even when you use de-escalating, reassuring and validating expressions as the standard. I think listening and validating and making a huge effort to understand where the other person is at is such an incredible skill, but as long as you still hold your boundary. The skill really is to communicate that boundary in a way that feels fair and reasonable and doesn't serve to just disconnect you. If you're still doing this and the other person can't see past it, I agree - incompatibility is where you're at. I don't think you can move past that.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2022 13:25:30 GMT
sunrisequest I tend to think that what you are describing is insecurity too deep to be in a relationship with (his). Deep insecurity causes people to be unable to access their empathy and they become so self absorbed in their threat response and need to feel safe that they are unable to provide anything like empathy, understanding, or support to their partner. That's what you needed there... I don't see that you needed further adjustments other than to limit the conversation as you said. It seems to me that what you needed was empathy for your pain and fatigue, you needed support and you needed reciprocity for boundaries and respect. The incessant engagement about their needs may seem one way to an unaware AP, but to me, at some point it becomes quite disrespectful, selfish and uncaring. You really deserved better there without having to work so damn hard for it.
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Post by sunrisequest on May 16, 2022 12:08:53 GMT
So the bottom line here is that there needs to be more time taken at the beginning to really understand compatibility issues... and figure out whether you have a partner who is capable of having these conversations at a level of maturity that suits your own? Or somewhere thereabouts. Because if there is a huge disparity, it doesn't matter how well you communicate individually, it still won't equal that person being able to meet you there, which ends up breeding more insecurity and eventually resentment. I think that idea is somewhat at odds from some of the relationship coaches I see out there, who focus a lot on saying that if one person changes the way they do things, the other person will follow... but it's really not that simple, is it?
The truth is I do really want a relationship with a high level of emotional maturity and intelligence. And perhaps I should start accepting that as a clear cut need that I'm not willing to compromise on... because I do think that's something I can offer back. Not looking for perfection, just someone who has got the skills to say, this thing is not working, let's look at why and what we can do about it.
This is an excellent point for me to get clear on. Thank you!
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2022 14:41:08 GMT
So the bottom line here is that there needs to be more time taken at the beginning to really understand compatibility issues... and figure out whether you have a partner who is capable of having these conversations at a level of maturity that suits your own? Or somewhere thereabouts. Because if there is a huge disparity, it doesn't matter how well you communicate individually, it still won't equal that person being able to meet you there, which ends up breeding more insecurity and eventually resentment. I think that idea is somewhat at odds from some of the relationship coaches I see out there, who focus a lot on saying that if one person changes the way they do things, the other person will follow... but it's really not that simple, is it? The truth is I do really want a relationship with a high level of emotional maturity and intelligence. And perhaps I should start accepting that as a clear cut need that I'm not willing to compromise on... because I do think that's something I can offer back. Not looking for perfection, just someone who has got the skills to say, this thing is not working, let's look at why and what we can do about it. This is an excellent point for me to get clear on. Thank you! Right! Courtship and dating should be about learning about your potential partner... not just about the fun stuff like what we like to do together, how the sex is, what our backgrounds are, what our plans are. When I was dating my boyfriend we had all the fun stuff in spades... what I needed to see over time is... how does he respond to my stated (important: STATED) needs? How does he respond to my natural priorities (children, work, my own health routines, etc ). Those natural priorities and values are also a point of compatibility, and can be discussed but not necessarily negotiated- this is a big area to make sure values align! And of course, how do we navigate conflict, how much responsibility and self awareness is in myself, in the other person? Is there mutual respect and trust? Are we able to be different without trying to change the other? There are many deep areas of compatibility that need to be considered. Its great to know what your personal values and priorities are- the qualities of character and relationship "personality" that you are cultivating in yourself and desire in a partner. The more you become healthy and emotionally mature and responsible, the LESS you should be compromising in those areas or you will be in an inequitable dynamic parenting an emotionally immature partner who doesn't take responsibility for their own emotional health. Humans are complicated and imperfect and there is room for that, however. We discovered, like many couples, that we weren't as good at handling conflict as we had hoped. That's where trust, commitment and teamwork come on, but this must be evidenced on BOTH sides. If a fear abandonment, a fear of engulfment, a fragile ego, unhealthy boundaries and over- or under-dependence play too much a role in the dynamic, it's going to be toxic no matter what you try. Being secure and healthy as a partner requires that those be tackled individually, prior to entering a committed relationship. I worked on this over years in various relationships, which ultimately all failed because of the insecurity not yet healed in both partners (like tends to attract like, insecure is attracted to and attracts insecure, generally...). So there's a growth trajectory in self aware, actively growing people who are putting in the effort to develop relationship skills. At some point, you can offer and also recognize and embrace heathy, more secure and peaceful dynamics. And the toxic stuff becomes more obvious and intolerable, in terms of what you will and will not accept for your relationships and well being.
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Post by sunrisequest on May 17, 2022 0:13:38 GMT
Agree with all of this, and it seems so obvious and something that I do instinctively know, but I do think that it's something I need to solidify and make a commitment to actually act on.
My ex's emotional intelligence is actually what attracted me to him - he's literally the deepest, most sensitive, empathetic and caring man I've ever come across, and communicates in a way that I felt deeply connected to. But what I didn't know was that he was only able to extend that emotional intelligence to certain dynamics and when he felt totally safe. It took time for me to see that he regressed into an almost child-like state when his abandonment wounds were triggered, and that he was triggered often and hard by SO many things that I've never seen anyone be triggered by before. So it's worth remembering that someone can have a great deal of emotional intelligence, but still be very insecure and for that to create a toxic dynamic. By the time I saw the extent of my ex's insecurity, I was in deep. It's not a mistake I'll make again. Slow and steady next time.
The other difficult thing is when someone is saying all the right words in terms of taking responsibility for things, doing the therapy, reading the books, and expressing a deep desire for healing and growth... it's hard to walk away from someone who is doing that because what more can you ask. So I need to give myself grace for sticking around for the time that I did to see if it would work. I don't think there's any absolute formula on that... we just have to try and read that situation the best we can and look for proof in actions rather than just words.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2022 0:23:03 GMT
Agree with all of this, and it seems so obvious and something that I do instinctively know, but I do think that it's something I need to solidify and make a commitment to actually act on. My ex's emotional intelligence is actually what attracted me to him - he's literally the deepest, most sensitive, empathetic and caring man I've ever come across, and communicates in a way that I felt deeply connected to. But what I didn't know was that he was only able to extend that emotional intelligence to certain dynamics and when he felt totally safe. It took time for me to see that he regressed into an almost child-like state when his abandonment wounds were triggered, and that he was triggered often and hard by SO many things that I've never seen anyone be triggered by before. So it's worth remembering that someone can have a great deal of emotional intelligence, but still be very insecure and for that to create a toxic dynamic. By the time I saw the extent of my ex's insecurity, I was in deep. It's not a mistake I'll make again. Slow and steady next time. The other difficult thing is when someone is saying all the right words in terms of taking responsibility for things, doing the therapy, reading the books, and expressing a deep desire for healing and growth... it's hard to walk away from someone who is doing that because what more can you ask. So I need to give myself grace for sticking around for the time that I did to see if it would work. I don't think there's any absolute formula on that... we just have to try and read that situation the best we can and look for proof in actions rather than just words. Oh absolutely do give yourself grace, it's only by walking through these situations that we learn what our limits and real needs are around all that. For whatever reason, he wasn't making the progress you needed to be healthy and happy in relationship with him, and now you have a clearer sense of where you're at with all that. It's all such a learning process and you don't know til you know, with some things. Emotional investment makes it all the more difficult to set limits and know when to fold. We all hope that what we are investing in will work. And, all insecures have a tendency to accept too much because we aren't clear about boundaries and what's healthy, what's sustainable, what actual progress really looks like. Until we learn the hard way.
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sorgin
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Post by sorgin on Jul 25, 2022 10:59:50 GMT
I am sorry I dissapeared so abruptly. Hope everybody is doing well. I keep reading you as usual. I was about to go to northwest Canada at the end of May for another foraging season till the autumn and I had the job, plane tickets and everything but decided to let the plane go a couple of hours before haha. Very impulsive decision but I don't regret it at all, it was a good choice. Not a good lifestyle for the man I want to be. Sending warm hugs.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2022 3:25:45 GMT
I am sorry I dissapeared so abruptly. Hope everybody is doing well. I keep reading you as usual. I was about to go to northwest Canada at the end of May for another foraging season till the autumn and I had the job, plane tickets and everything but decided to let the plane go a couple of hours before haha. Very impulsive decision but I don't regret it at all, it was a good choice. Not a good lifestyle for the man I want to be. Sending warm hugs. Hey sorgin good to "see" ya.
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