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Post by violet on Feb 4, 2023 8:12:47 GMT
Hi all! I've been lurking and find the advice and insight on this forum to be extremely invaluable. Thanks in advance to those who read & respond.
I know that normal incompatibility can come up within 2 months, but this was such a confusing experience it was anything but normal...
Both early 30s.
Me: Earned secure (mostly) FA. Had taken 4 years away from dating to work on myself. (Ironic that I would run into this dipping back in the dating pool...)
Him: Unaware FA (DA leaning?). Was 1 year out of a 4 year relationship.
Broke up a little over 2 months ago. Last contact from him was ~6 weeks ago.
The TLDR is that I thought he was secure until the breakup.
Everything was going super well, we got along effortlessly, constantly laughing, super comfortable. Obviously attracted to each other. Same values, goals, lots of non-superficial things in common. We were only seeing each other 1-2x a week but we would spend the whole day together.
Before our breakup, we had a really fun but long date where he was very affectionate and talking about future plans, meeting his friends, spending Christmas together...
Then by the end of the night he was distancing, completely icy, picking at things I was doing/saying, condescending, lifeless goodbye kiss... I thought that he was probably just tired, but subconsciously, it had set off my anxiety.
3 days later we were on the phone by my request (possibly the trigger) and he was immediately cancelling our Christmas plans and blowing up on me about completely stupid things.
Telling me he HATED the date we just went on and that he only did it to make me happy.
Saying he's been wondering if he even wants to keep dating me because "there are things about [me] that [he's] not sure [he] can tolerate" - things not even worth mentioning, they were so petty!!
When I asked him why he didn't bring those things up earlier so we could talk about it, he was adamant that it would've caused an argument and that he just observes people and if they keep doing something, it's clearly a habit, and they'll never change.
He also mentioned how his feelings for me change day by day. (?? hello?? how did I not pick up on this obvious sign when he said it??)
I was so blindsided by the whole thing I barely knew what to say, I was mostly just trying to prevent myself from crying, he was so cold and practically berating me the whole time.
He wanted to think about how he felt overnight. When I didn't hear back from him, I impulsively decided to break up with him.
I regretted it immediately tbh, but I was just so upset and hurt by how cold and cruel he was. No remorse whatsoever.
My breakup message was courteous and kind, unlike how he had acted. His response was just "ok thanks". That stung.
He's completely shut down since though.
I gave him space and reached out after 2 weeks to make amends/potentially fix things, but I got a totally robotic response: "I'm busy. [paragraph explaining how busy]. I have other priorities right now - thanks for the message."
He ignored all my other messages - ""only"" 3, spread out over the last 6 weeks - but I can understand why, I was stupidly chasing, trying to get him to talk about what happened, overly emotional/sentimental, asking if he wanted to try again (so embarrassing), and I won't lie, the messages were long...
I've never felt that activated before, it felt like I was out of control, even though objectively I know 3 long messages over weeks is nothing. APs, you have my sympathy.
I feel mortified and humiliated for being so vulnerable to no response... I regret sending those messages at all.
I just wanted to salvage things because one silly argument shouldn't be a relationship killer.
It felt like it could've been something great if we had better communication. But that's what all the partners of avoidants say, right?? Sigh.
I genuinely really, really liked him, which is extremely rare for me and hasn't happened in years, so I guess I was overly attached.
It just breaks my heart that he cut me off like that, that he's ok with how things ended, no apologies or kind words... just poof. Ghost.
I'm definitely leaving him alone now and moving on with my life because quite frankly I don't like this anxious version of me, but I have a some final questions before I close the book on this.
Questions:
Is this fast of a deactivation is common, or has it happened to anyone else?
Isn't it way too early for attachment triggers to happen, especially to this extent? He didn't have any smaller deactivations, like needing space, or even going a day without texting... he was always shockingly consistent and he was always the one initiating plans, coming up with date ideas, etc. Maybe that's because of his extreme people pleasing though, I wouldn't be surprised if he burnt himself out and all his life stress got to him. He's also a workaholic.
But it seems like for most avoidants it usually takes multiple months, years, or major relationship milestones for it to happen, not 2 months in where there was little to no pressure yet??
Plus we hadn't spoke about our feelings, or exclusivity, or trauma, or anything like that yet, so I find it hard to imagine that we had reached the point of emotional intimacy or vulnerability that would generate a deactivation?
Also, is the length of this deactivation a sign that he's done with me for good, even platonically? Considering we only dated for 2 months, ignoring me for 2 months seems excessive...
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Post by alexandra on Feb 4, 2023 8:52:23 GMT
Ya, I've had this happen. And while that guy I knew was probably FA, I don't think it happened due to attachment issues. It became very clear very quickly he had other bigger comorbid mental health issues, though I don't know what. He flipped totally, and I didn't have any idea how to react, but the next day I realized 2 things: 1. I'd definitely missed that he had a drinking problem (happens when you've only known someone several weeks so don't really know them yet) and 2. The reason I felt so confused and anxiously triggered was he all out gaslit me out of no where. Only one person had ever gaslit me before and it felt similarly horrible and confusing (also a guy with bigger issues than attachment).
Part of the healing of earning secure is letting go quickly when someone shows you who they really are and moving on because you learned you deserve better and not to abandon yourself. It still took me a while and some active practice after I started dating once I truly earned secure to not choose insecure attachers. There was still some residual attraction for the type at first, but then things like this would happen and remind me it wasn't the kind of relationship or interaction I wanted at all, and NC and brushing myself off to meet a better match was the way to go. It wasn't instantaneous overnight even after I'd moved out of being AP. You still need to learn who you are and how to date as an earned secure and practice breaking those old patterns until it becomes second nature.
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Post by tnr9 on Feb 4, 2023 9:48:01 GMT
“Pressure” comes from inside the person and isn’t necessarily tied to the length of dating. Case in point….my brother would often “ghost” women early on if he felt things were moving faster then he was comfortable with. I am not suggesting that this is the case for the guy you were seeing….I am also not defending “ghosting” because to me it is a very cowardly and immature way of avoiding “conflict”. I am an FA who leans AP in relationships so I know how fear and anxiety producing silence can be.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2023 16:48:18 GMT
Why would you even want to be friends who was so mean to you? Telling you there are so many things about you that he didn't know if he could tolerate? That's just needlessly hurtful and also indicates a really stingy and critical heart when it comes to loving someone. And the arrogance of it all!
What I've learned about love is that two people graciously accept and embrace each other's weaknesses, knowing that their own flaws are accepted and that the whole person is safe... he'd have you walking on eggshells all the time wondering if it was this? Or that? What makes you so cringey to him? His own issues make you cringey.
Let this go, you discovered his capacity for partnership through dating which is how it goes. Be alert to your own triggers here, and the tendency to go down the rabbit hole after someone who is just plainly toxic for you.
Find someone who doesn't keep a checklist of your supposed flaws. This guy isn't not the one to love you in the way you deserve to be loved, quirks and all. I'm mad on your behalf and don't feel there's any need to excuse his behavior or try to make sense of it. He's just not nice and who cares why?
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Post by alexandra on Feb 4, 2023 19:38:22 GMT
Exactly. When this happened to me, the out of no where flip was all out character assassination and totally ridiculous and not even in the bounds of reality. I was not earned secure yet when dating that guy, and I was understandably confused and a little frozen as I needed a minute to catch up on emotionally processing it (my first instinct was to repair, I sent one confused text the next morning to no response which was cringe to do, but that desire luckily didn't last long and I asked myself why I'd talk to him again and blocked him that afternoon), but this is what I was trying to say too. He treated me so unforgivably that it didn't matter why. I saw who he was and his capacity to treat others he was trying to build a connection with, and it was awful. He even spoke to me that way in front of his friend, who got so uncomfortable with it that he simply left. Lots of analysis really wasn't worth it, choosing to not tolerate being treated that way and cutting him out was.
In my specific situation, I eventually learned I knew someone else he dated much later down the road. He treated her similarly but not as hostile because he flipped on her even earlier so there wasn't much to build on yet. So it's best to depersonalize the why and remind yourself that your feelings here are valid, and you did not deserve what happened. That's the bigger picture important part.
Also remember it's easy to be on your your best behavior the first couple months of dating someone new. But if that's not truly who you are, it's not sustainable and the mask will drop. That's why you date for several months or longer before deeply committing, to learn who that person really is. The earlier you learn something like this about someone's character, the better in the longer run. And it means you dated properly, finding out more about him before real commitment, and learning he's not a good match.
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Post by mrob on Feb 4, 2023 21:35:59 GMT
I’d say that’s the textbook FA pattern. Relationships start to get real about then. I’ve had the experience of that deactivation. I couldn’t explain it being unaware of course, but being aware and having it happen is just horrible and confusing. However, his behaviour as a result of his deactivation doesn’t sound acceptable. As alexandra said, it’s more in the way you’re dealing with it. Making decisions based on your responses to his behaviour. |
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Post by alexandra on Feb 4, 2023 21:56:53 GMT
I just think there's ways to deactivate without also being outright cruel about it. Having an FA style, especially unaware, can cause and explain the deactivation, but it's not always the whole story. People's general character and/or comorbid mental health issues can contribute to how it manifests. So in a situation like this, attachment style can help understanding but I don't think how he handled it should be chalked up only to attachment issues or excused by it. I've been with FA who lashed out, and been with those who didn't, even during deactivation.
I understand OP's inclination here to look through that lens, but the bigger picture once you're aware and through as much of the process as she's gone through so far is to remember that the most important thing is finding the partner you deserve and makes you feel heard, appreciated, and respected. Really lean into the feeling that he makes you feel anxious in a way you don't want in a relationship (presumably because you've already been there, done that in your life), and recognize that as a huge warning flag if that specific type of enduring anxiety starts to happen with other different dates as well. I found it to actually be a part of the natural process of re-wiring the type of person you're attracted to as internal security grows... that eventually, the kind of behavior in a partner that triggers that reaction in you simply isn't attractive anymore, and emotional stability becomes more and more attractive.
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Post by violet on Feb 4, 2023 23:29:37 GMT
Thanks so much everyone! This has given me a lot to think about. Re: wanting to be friends after he treated me that way, I guess I'm just a typical FA at heart - I don't want him to hurt me again but I liked him enough that having him as a casual friend wouldn't be so bad. We just clicked so well. ): tnr9 I used to react that way too (unfortunately) so I can kind of understand the logic behind it. I just wish he had shown me a little respect by just telling me he didn't want to talk anymore at bare minimum, but I get that fear/guilt/shame/anxiety supersedes that. Did your brother ever apologize to women he ghosted? @introverttemporary You're so right. You've said things that I've told myself, I flip between being angry about how I was treated and feeling pity for him since I know why he acted that way (on a level). I guess I just have some severe cognitive dissonance happening - he was such a great person that I had so much fun around and then he was just horrible for... 30 minutes. It's like my brain can't connect the two sides of him. At this point I'm more hurt that he ghosted me than the actual breakup, but I know all of this is more of a reflection of him than it is on me - I know my value, and so did he by his actions while we were together, it's his loss in the end. But besides that, you're extremely right. I know that I didn't work this hard on myself to fall into a toxic relationship. But I am glad that it happened so that I could see my blind spots that still need to be worked on. I think the cruel rejection really triggered something in me, because a kind and normal breakup wouldn't have made me chase after someone like this. I need to reflect on what internally made me crave that reconciliation/validation from someone that was cruel. mrob I've read a lot of your responses on this forum, thank you for the insight! My deactivations were/are different (retreat and isolate, never confront), so I'm curious, when you had something like this happen, did you feel guilty or justified in how you acted? Did you ever apologize to the person? alexandra Your words really resonated with me. Hearing that you went through something similar made me realize that my initial reaction of breaking up with him was the right thing to do, but I shouldn't have tried to repair - like you said, he showed me his true colours and how he treats someone he's trying to build a connection with. He showed me he could act like the perfect boyfriend but in the end it wasn't something he cared to maintain. I think I latched onto the attachment angle because I saw a lot of myself in him post-breakup, it made me think I understood him. But you're so right, there could easily be other things at play. He could easily have just been a huge jerk or had an addiction problem that he was hiding. I do need to listen more to my instincts. I wasn't completely anxiety-free during the relationship, and that should have been a red flag, but it was infrequent enough that I tried to justify it. After this it really hammered home that I want a relationship where I feel comfortable, secure, and that we have open communication. Again thanks so much everyone, I'm glad I posted here. |
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Post by mrob on Feb 5, 2023 1:44:27 GMT
alexandra. Absolutely. Attachment style does not excuse cruel treatment. The definition of cruel treatment is subjective. Some say ghosting is cruel treatment, abuse even. It’s no good, but no answer can be an answer. I just need to say, APs and DAs are fortunate in not having this wild flip happen. Your attachment style might be insecure, but it’s constant. That’s some comfort. I’m not a confrontational person. That’s actually half the problem. I’ve learned to speak a lot more since being here, and not go along with bad behaviour, and situations that don’t work, while looking at my part as well. As for an apology, there are times where relations have been so damaged the best apology I can make is to stay away. Other times an apology has been necessary. I’ve got to be careful that an apology isn’t a covert opportunity for reconnection and starting the whole thing over again.
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Post by tnr9 on Feb 5, 2023 2:04:28 GMT
Thanks so much everyone! This has given me a lot to think about. Re: wanting to be friends after he treated me that way, I guess I'm just a typical FA at heart - I don't want him to hurt me again but I liked him enough that having him as a casual friend wouldn't be so bad. We just clicked so well. ): tnr9 I used to react that way too (unfortunately) so I can kind of understand the logic behind it. I just wish he had shown me a little respect by just telling me he didn't want to talk anymore at bare minimum, but I get that fear/guilt/shame/anxiety supersedes that. Did your brother ever apologize to women he ghosted? @introverttemporary You're so right. You've said things that I've told myself, I flip between being angry about how I was treated and feeling pity for him since I know why he acted that way (on a level). I guess I just have some severe cognitive dissonance happening - he was such a great person that I had so much fun around and then he was just horrible for... 30 minutes. It's like my brain can't connect the two sides of him. At this point I'm more hurt that he ghosted me than the actual breakup, but I know all of this is more of a reflection of him than it is on me - I know my value, and so did he by his actions while we were together, it's his loss in the end. But besides that, you're extremely right. I know that I didn't work this hard on myself to fall into a toxic relationship. But I am glad that it happened so that I could see my blind spots that still need to be worked on. I think the cruel rejection really triggered something in me, because a kind and normal breakup wouldn't have made me chase after someone like this. I need to reflect on what internally made me crave that reconciliation/validation from someone that was cruel. mrob I've read a lot of your responses on this forum, thank you for the insight! My deactivations were/are different (retreat and isolate, never confront), so I'm curious, when you had something like this happen, did you feel guilty or justified in how you acted? Did you ever apologize to the person? alexandra Your words really resonated with me. Hearing that you went through something similar made me realize that my initial reaction of breaking up with him was the right thing to do, but I shouldn't have tried to repair - like you said, he showed me his true colours and how he treats someone he's trying to build a connection with. He showed me he could act like the perfect boyfriend but in the end it wasn't something he cared to maintain. I think I latched onto the attachment angle because I saw a lot of myself in him post-breakup, it made me think I understood him. But you're so right, there could easily be other things at play. He could easily have just been a huge jerk or had an addiction problem that he was hiding. I do need to listen more to my instincts. I wasn't completely anxiety-free during the relationship, and that should have been a red flag, but it was infrequent enough that I tried to justify it. After this it really hammered home that I want a relationship where I feel comfortable, secure, and that we have open communication. Again thanks so much everyone, I'm glad I posted here. My brother ne er did apologize….in his own way he would justify the ghosting because he did not have other “tools” to work with at the time. I spoke to him about this and he is now being more direct then he used to be…but he still has his FA moments. |
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Post by annieb on Feb 5, 2023 19:40:53 GMT
I think it’s great that you have this knowledge and awareness of the attachment styles and most importantly of yourself. I think this is where a lot of us fall into a trap of empathy of sorts where we “know” what the other avoidant is feeling. And most often we are correct. I’ve had my share of these experiences and the guy has come back years later reciting the exact reasoning I thought they had, but at the time they denied it and gaslit me. While having this knowledge is a gift, it never really made my life easier. I often wish I didn’t go into the analytical wise rabbit hole and have my differentiated views on things as all they ever did they brought me even more pain. I ended up doing the right thing and I think I’m essence I sometimes did the wrong thing by me. I would now start to really pay attention to those first gut reactions. I think your inclination to break up with him on the spot like you did may seem anxious, but it was the right call even though you later backtracked on it by reaching out. We all have doubts, but usually those gut reaction decisions feel good and empowered.
Lastly I’m sorry you had to listen to him berating you for something you didn’t do. I’ve also lived with character assassinations and then years later getting apologies. How about they never project their nonsense onto us in the first place, and work through their issues instead of dumping them on us. All they are are justifications of why they actually don’t want to be in a relationship. I think going through with dating and then whatever rigmarole of deactivation they go through die to their own traumas, I wish they didn’t involve us. I find that highly disrespectful. I’m sorry again.
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Post by violet on Feb 5, 2023 23:27:50 GMT
annieb Empathy trap is such a good way of putting it, that's exactly what it feels like. It's almost dangerous because we gain this understanding of ourselves and think we can help other people, but it's such an individual, internal journey that we literally CAN'T help another person, and then we get stuck. You're so right, I did actually feel empowered when I initiated the break up, it was a weird mix of that and regret. But I let the regret part take over. ): I'll definitely be listening to my gut reactions more in the future. I do feel a little guilty, because I was thinking about it again and I realized one of the things might not have been that petty... He pointed out something I kept saying reminded him of stuff people would say/do to him as a kid when he was learning English and it made him feel bad. It's kind of hard to explain - to him it was telling him what he meant or assuming intent I guess. Like I would offhandedly say something like "I told my friend about when you made me try x food/activity/whatever" and he would respond "I didn't MAKE you try it", where I would be like, yeah, obviously I did it of my own free will...? In hindsight I realize every time I did that he would get annoyed/cold/distant, so I was likely poking at a trauma wound, but I didn't really get it at the time. I'm not blaming myself for it, because it was unintentional and I apologized for it and like you said, he was projecting his issues onto me rather than looking internally... He found it easier to blame me for his feeling bad, lash out at me for it, and cut me out of his life, than it was for him to really delve into that core issue. Early on, he even said to me "I'm afraid of saying something that will push you away" so he has SOME level of self-awareness, but not enough yet. I hope he gets there someday though.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2023 23:40:38 GMT
The farther I've gotten into healing the more I realize I hurt people unintentionally,in my own survival. Every single person here, if they are able to be honest with themselves, could admit to acting without true empathy or understanding when it comes to the other person.
So, was he needlessly hurtful? It sure sounds like it. And, he hasn't told his side of the story either, you may have seemed so to him in some ways. The point is not to play devil's advocate here,and withdraw support from you, not at all.
The point is, it's all messy and complicated and focusing on blame is more of the same insecure stuff. It's ok to get your bearings and recognize toxic behavior that impacted you. And it's a good practice to balance that with some healthy humility recognizing we all behave in ways that others might legitimately be hurt by, without intending to.
None of us here on the boards is all the way there, and I can say that with confidence because growth is a lifelong LIFELONG process, and especially for insecurely attached people. I am still becoming aware of flaws in my thinking and relating years and years into this, at 52 years old.
We all have enough to look at in ourselves to keep us productively occupied and on tbe right path, other people's poor behavior aside. Just a good thing to keep in mind.
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Post by tnr9 on Feb 6, 2023 1:48:41 GMT
Part of my healing journey has been to stop trying to mind read others. Yes, there is a certain anxiety with this when the lens you have is “other focused”, but it is a huge relief to only be speaking for myself. My therapist and I spent a long time focusing on where I “physically” end and another person begins….this has allowed me to be autonomous. I had not realized how I had numbed my body in order to try to be what my parents wanted me to be as a child. The therapist I see is a somatic experiencing therapist. It might be worth checking to see if that would work for you.
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Post by violet on Feb 6, 2023 2:00:03 GMT
@introverttemporary You're right, the simple fact is that we all impact other people in ways that we can't always control or intend. I think, like you said, the insecure part of me is still searching for justification. "I did something to deserve that". Regardless of the reason, it doesn't make his reaction okay, and blaming myself is unproductive and the wrong thing to focus on. Instead, I should be looking at my own boundaries and the actions/attitudes/etc I accept from others; him flipping out, berating me, not apologizing, and then ghosting me is unacceptable, so I should move on guilt-free. Thank you for helping me re-direct my thinking! tnr9 I'll definitely look into somatic experiencing, thank you for the suggestion!! I also have an issue with trying to mind-read people even though I've worked on accepting other's actions as they are. It really is a survival response, trying to be exactly what you think others want from you at your own detriment. |
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