bluex
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Post by bluex on Feb 6, 2023 19:55:12 GMT
That's why I said the chance is not high, but there's no alternative other than giving up. Yes, those pointers come from the attachment specialists or therapists and hence sound textbook. I did not dream them up or paraphrase to make them sound different. Secure persons apparently should also communicate in such calm matter of fact manner instead of injecting emotion. I think it's weird that you find the neutral matter of fact phrasing weird. I think quite a number of active posters here seem to just say stop, walk away, give up etc right now, if the FA or DA is unhealed and unaware, and if you don't, something is wrong with you. This is quite unfortunate and toxic to both the parties in the relationship. Both the FA and the FA's partner deserve at least a chance to make this work, even if the chance is not high. The only issue with this approach is that there are a lot of posts where people have not done any pressuring and the line never changes. It is good that you know your time limit. It feels a bit weird to me that you are referring to her still in clinical terms…maybe this comes from a book…..but it is still weird. |
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Post by alexandra on Feb 6, 2023 19:55:28 GMT
While your list of bullet points is good and I don't see anything untrue or badly directed in there, your follow up beliefs underlying the foundation for it in your subsequent comments don't seem like they're going to get you to the security you actually seek.
First, in regards to advice on the forum, people do tend to say to focus on yourself when you're trying to shift an insecure attachment dynamic with someone unaware or unwilling, and to let it go when the person has already broken up with you or you're stuck unwillingly in a situationship. This is not devoid of empathy but actually the opposite, based on the experiences of people who have seen it through, usually multiple times over, and realizing you can't shift these dynamics on your own. You can keep yourself in unhappy limbo endlessly, though, if you so choose, especially someone paired with an FA who pushes them more anxious or if you are AP or FA yourself. Having a time limit is great, but do ask yourself why you're hanging in there for an emotionally unhealthy person who has already broken the foundation and trust of the relationship.
Second, the advice that insecures, including avoidants, can only find security through a secure partner is actually kind of bunk. Security comes from an internal drive to heal past wounding and rewire your nervous system. It does not come from having a secure partner. While having a secure partner and other secure relationships helps model security for you, this allows the insecure person the space to work out their own healing and issues without additional extra triggering in the partnership distracting them from doing their own work. If you're an insecure person with a secure partner and not doing your own work, you may develop a secure attachment with that partner, but you'll still overall have an insecure attachment style and trigger yourself and stay in your dysfunctional patterns plenty.
The actual progression tends to be, as you yourself become more secure, you outgrow those who are less secure. Your attraction for the kind of behavior you surround yourself with naturally eventually shifts as you stop abandoning yourself (more relevant for those who have an anxious side) or as you learn YOU want to open up and have a drive to connect, to others who deserve it, without assuming the worst and can be more interdependent with others and still be okay within yourself (simplification summary, as all of this is, but more relevant for those with an avoidant side). If you approach this as avoidants especially never change, then what is the point? It's not true, there is some research estimating that 25% of people will shift attachment styles over the course of their life, but there's no breakout between anxious or avoidant or even secure shifting to insecure. I've known both anxious and avoidant types who have fully earned secure, myself included, and I've known more who haven't changed or haven't wanted to (including AP, who can be just as stubborn).
I've also found just in personal experience that those attachment assessments aren't as straightforward as 50% = secure. I've noticed it's actually 60-65% secure is when you truly tip into the different attachment style quadrant, if you want to mince semantics. And this is difficult to explain because it's very abstract, but when you do earn secure, you may experience an entire mindset shift, like you stop recognizing your own thoughts as predictable because you've broken out of the learned and subconscious patterns you've been stuck in most of your life. That's not something I'd have believed until it happened to me, but it was very clear when this shift happened for me, and it did take a couple years of focused healing on top of several years prior to that of not knowing attachment theory and questioning a lot about why all my romantic relationships were painful disasters.
So all this is to say, if you want to hang in, you need to accept the other person but also show empathy. Just because they're not changing or ready to deal with their avoidance or whatever it is right now, on your schedule, doesn't mean they'll never deal with it or all avoidants are terrible people. They may or may not, it's a personal choice that's likely borne out of pain (think about what made you want to learn more about your own attachment style?). If they are unaware and resistant to attachment theory or therapy, then yes, the advice is cut your losses. It's not fair to who they are and will feel ick for them if you're looking for the relationship to be something different than it is. Keep them as a friend if you can handle no expectations and it doesn't distract you from finding other partners. But you cannot shift an insecure dynamic on your own (I've learned that very well from personal experience). Both people need to be aware and driven to work on themselves at the same time to be the "exception" and grow into a healthy relationship.
If you're truly aiming to be secure, you do need to ask yourself why you'll tolerate less of a relationship than you want instead of focusing on the "other" of how to find the winning formula to get the avoidant to give you what you want. Part of that feeling of scarcity of attraction to others is related to how an insecure attachment nervous system is conditioned, and how avoidants provide a feeling of sparks and chemistry to anxious because it's exciting old, familiar wounds and feelings. That's a recipe for repeating insecure dynamics, unfortunately, and not the calm, slow building of connecting and attraction that exists when you start with an open mind to getting to know someone and build trust, assess compatibility, and get to know each other over time. That doesn't mean physical attraction shouldn't exist somewhat from the get go, at least something should be there to build on. But building secure connections is calmer, steady, consistent, and not as instantaneous, because that instant connection has a fair bit of projection in it before you actually have gotten to know the other person yet. So the good news is, the more secure you get by focusing on yourself, the more that feeling of scarcity decreases and your attraction for more types of people actually grows as your openness grows and you search for compatibility not spark. But this all takes time and healing within self to achieve, it is a process.
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Post by alexandra on Feb 6, 2023 20:02:10 GMT
And want to add, different attachment style types think differently and have different needs from each other. Very often, these needs are fundamentally incompatible to each other (simplification: under stress, anxious want re-connection, avoidant want space). That's the other reason there's advice to let these relationships go once they've broken.
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bluex
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Post by bluex on Feb 6, 2023 20:03:56 GMT
No it's not "bunk" if you read what I said. Actually I mentioned the goal is for the FAs to discover for themselves the need to change and start work on themselves, by having a secure partner beside them that they can feel safe with and see secure behaviour. And I mentioned the chance is not high but there isn't any alternative other than giving up. And 60-65% is what I meant when I said more than half. 50% is clearly not more than half. I find that quite a number of active posters here already have preconceived notions of the scenario and basically do not even read the actual case and instead just say stop, walk away, give up etc right now, if the FA or DA is unhealed and unaware, and if you don't, something is wrong with you. This is quite unfortunate and toxic to both the parties in the relationship. Both the FA and the FA's partner deserve at least a chance to make this work, even if the chance is not high. While your list of bullet points is good and I don't see anything untrue or badly directed in there, your follow up beliefs underlying the foundation for it in your subsequent comments don't seem like they're going to get you to the security you actually seek. First, in regards to advice on the forum, people do tend to say to focus on yourself when you're trying to shift an insecure attachment dynamic with someone unaware or unwilling, and to let it go when the person has already broken up with you or you're stuck unwillingly in a situationship. This is not devoid of empathy but actually the opposite, based on the experiences of people who have seen it through, usually multiple times over, and realizing you can't shift these dynamics on your own. You can keep yourself in unhappy limbo endlessly, though, if you so choose, especially someone paired with an FA who pushes them more anxious or if you are AP or FA yourself. Having a time limit is great, but do ask yourself why you're hanging in there for an emotionally unhealthy person who has already broken the foundation and trust of the relationship. Second, the advice that insecures, including avoidants, can only find security through a secure partner is actually kind of bunk. Security comes from an internal drive to heal past wounding and rewire your nervous system. It does not come from having a secure partner. While having a secure partner and other secure relationships helps model security for you, this allows the insecure person the space to work out their own healing and issues without additional extra triggering in the partnership distracting them from doing their own work. If you're an insecure person with a secure partner and not doing your own work, you may develop a secure attachment with that partner, but you'll still overall have an insecure attachment style and trigger yourself and stay in your dysfunctional patterns plenty. The actual progression tends to be, as you yourself become more secure, you outgrow those who are less secure. Your attraction for the kind of behavior you surround yourself with naturally eventually shifts as you stop abandoning yourself (more relevant for those who have an anxious side) or as you learn YOU want to open up and have a drive to connect, to others who deserve it, without assuming the worst and can be more interdependent with others and still be okay within yourself (simplification summary, as all of this is, but more relevant for those with an avoidant side). If you approach this as avoidants especially never change, then what is the point? It's not true, there is some research estimating that 25% of people will shift attachment styles over the course of their life, but there's no breakout between anxious or avoidant or even secure shifting to insecure. I've known both anxious and avoidant types who have fully earned secure, myself included, and I've known more who haven't changed or haven't wanted to (including AP, who can be just as stubborn). I've also found just in personal experience that those attachment assessments aren't as straightforward as 50% = secure. I've noticed it's actually 60-65% secure is when you truly tip into the different attachment style quadrant, if you want to mince semantics. And this is difficult to explain because it's very abstract, but when you do earn secure, you may experience an entire mindset shift, like you stop recognizing your own thoughts as predictable because you've broken out of the learned and subconscious patterns you've been stuck in most of your life. That's not something I'd have believed until it happened to me, but it was very clear when this shift happened for me, and it did takes a couple years of focused healing on top of several years prior to that of not knowing attachment theory and questioning a lot about why all my romantic relationships were painful disasters. So all this is to say, if you want to hang in, you need to accept the other person but also show empathy. Just because they're not changing or ready to deal with their avoidance or whatever it is right now, on your schedule, doesn't mean they'll never deal with it or all avoidants are terrible people. They may or may not, it's a personal choice that's likely borne out of pain (think about what made you want to learn more about your own attachment style?). If they are unaware and resistant to attachment theory or therapy, then yes, the advice is cut your losses. It's not fair to who they are and will feel ick for them if you're looking for the relationship to be something different than it is. Keep them as a friend if you can handle no expectations and it doesn't distract you from finding other partners. But you cannot shift an insecure dynamic on your own (I've learned that very well from personal experience). Both people need to be aware and driven to work on themselves at the same time to be the "exception" and grow into a healthy relationship. If you're truly aiming to be secure, you do need to ask yourself why you'll tolerate less of a relationship than you want instead of focusing on the "other" of how to find the winning formula to get the avoidant to give you what you want. Part of that feeling of scarcity of attraction to others is related to how an insecure attachment nervous system is conditioned, and how avoidants provide a feeling of sparks and chemistry to anxious because it's exciting old, familiar wounds and feelings. That's a recipe for repeating insecure dynamics, unfortunately, and not the calm, slow building of connecting and attraction that exists when you start with an open mind to getting to know someone and build trust, assess compatibility, and get to know each other over time. That doesn't mean physical attraction shouldn't exist somewhat from the get go, at least something should be there to build on. But building secure connections is calmer, steady, consistent, and not as instantaneous, because that instant connection has a fair bit of projection in it before you actually have gotten to know the other person yet. So the good news is, the more secure you get by focusing on yourself, the more that feeling of scarcity decreases and your attraction for more types of people actually grows as your openness grows and you search for compatibility not spark. But this all takes time and healing within self to achieve, it is a process. |
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Post by alexandra on Feb 6, 2023 20:07:24 GMT
That's your takeaway from all the information I provided. No problem.
I earned secure and did not have a secure partner to get me there. Having a secure partner would not have healed me, I needed to heal me. Now I'm happily married to a secure partner who is wonderful.
You can continue working with theoretical information and advice. I was giving a practical experience answer of having gone through it and come out successfully on the other side. I didn't come out partnered with my FA exes, it's true, but that really turned out to be for the best once I let go of thinking I could shift our dynamics.
I wish you luck in your situation!
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bluex
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Posts: 31
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Post by bluex on Feb 6, 2023 20:14:48 GMT
Unfortunately you are quoting quite a lot of textbook that actually agrees with the textbook I quoted but for some reason you are framing it as a disagreement to what I wrote. Not sure what your motivation is but doesn't seem helpful when it appears you didn't even read what I wrote before seemingly copying and pasting what looks like a cookie cutter sermon to anyone who is trying to make it work with an unhealed FA. Basically, your advice is the same blunt blanket run for the hills and if you stay even for a short while, there must be something wrong with you. Very simplistic and pointless. It is clear that it is very challenging to be in a relationship with an FA and the chance of making it work is not high. No need for you to point out the obvious. And the myth that only an insecure can be attracted to an FA or try to make it work with an FA, when there are so many other factors surrounding compatibility and attraction，besides attachment style. Again, instead of truly contributing to the points, you have your other motivations and agenda I suppose. But like I said, quite toxic to FAs and their partners. That's your takeaway from all the information I provided. No problem. I earned secure and did not have a secure partner to get me there. Having a secure partner would not have healed me, I needed to heal me. Now I'm happily married to a secure partner who is wonderful. You can continue working with theoretical information and advice. I was giving a practical experience answer of having gone through it and come out successfully on the other side. I didn't come out partnered with my FA exes, it's true, but that really turned out to be for the best once I let go of thinking I could shift our dynamics. I wish you luck in your situation! |
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Post by tnr9 on Feb 6, 2023 20:34:47 GMT
Unfortunately you are quoting quite a lot of textbook that actually agrees with the textbook I quoted but for some reason you are framing it as a disagreement to what I wrote. Not sure what your motivation is but doesn't seem helpful when it appears you didn't even read what I wrote before seemingly copying and pasting what looks like a cookie cutter sermon to anyone who is trying to make it work with an unhealed FA. Basically, your advice is the same blunt blanket run for the hills and if you stay even for a short, there must be something wrong with you. Very simplistic and pointless. It is clear that it is very challenging to be in a relationship with an FA and the chance of making it work is not high. No need for you to point out the obvious. And the myth that only an insecure can be attracted to an FA, when there are so many other factors surrounding compatibility and attraction，besides attachment style. Again, instead of truly contributing to the points, you have your other motivations and agenda I suppose. That's your takeaway from all the information I provided. No problem. I earned secure and did not have a secure partner to get me there. Having a secure partner would not have healed me, I needed to heal me. Now I'm happily married to a secure partner who is wonderful. You can continue working with theoretical information and advice. I was giving a practical experience answer of having gone through it and come out successfully on the other side. I didn't come out partnered with my FA exes, it's true, but that really turned out to be for the best once I let go of thinking I could shift our dynamics. I wish you luck in your situation! To my knowledge, none of the individuals who have identified as having FA wounding on these boards decided to change because of being with a secure partner. In fact, the ones I know (including myself) decided to change because of the pain we experienced when our relationships did not work. It is during that grieving period that we started to consider our own role in things and sought help. Mirroring her, avoiding challenges and accepting a less then ideal situation in order to avoid conflict, doesn’t really lead to a desire to change, it just emphasizes that the status quo is ok. Obviously you have read a lot on the topic….but I and others have lived it. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2023 20:40:28 GMT
Do let us know how it goes.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2023 20:54:14 GMT
Oh and wanted to add, the "collective wisdom" you solicited and are receiving here has been acquired through years of personal experience, both lived, and in the archives of this forum.
If I had a nickel for every novice who came here posting as you do and rejected everyone's perspectives, quoted all the experts, and then finally crashed and burned when the object of their undying devotion didn't manifest their happy ever after...
If it works for you and you're so sure why argue? Just go do you?
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bluex
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Post by bluex on Feb 6, 2023 21:02:43 GMT
Sure, but there are cases elsewhere where FAs came to a realisation during a difficult period with a secure partner. Therapist Pauline Timmer is an example and there are examples on other boards. Of course I understand it's a minority, that's why I said the chance is not high. But to pretend that the only option with an unhealed FA is to leave them just because of your own experience speaks of an unwillingness to read outside and read what other specialists have to say about being with an FA. I have someone here private messaging me complaining how closed minded some posters here are and how they stereotype FAs just because of their own experience. To my knowledge, none of the individuals who have identified as having FA wounding on these boards decided to change because of being with a secure partner. In fact, the ones I know (including myself) decided to change because of the pain we experienced when our relationships did not work. It is during that grieving period that we started to consider our own role in things and sought help. Mirroring her, avoiding challenges and accepting a less then ideal situation in order to avoid conflict, doesn’t really lead to a desire to change, it just emphasizes that the status quo is ok. Obviously you have read a lot on the topic….but I and others have lived it. |
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Post by tnr9 on Feb 6, 2023 21:05:36 GMT
Sure, but there are cases elsewhere where FAs came to a realisation during a difficult period with a secure partner. Therapist Pauline Timmer is an example and there are examples on other boards. Of course I understand it's a minority, that's why I said the chance is not high. But to pretend that the only option with an unhealed FA is to leave them just because of your own experience speaks of an unwillingness to read outside and read what other specialists have to say about being with an FA. I have someone here provate messaging me complaining how closed minded some posters here are and how they stereotype FAs just because of their own experience. To my knowledge, none of the individuals who have identified as having FA wounding on these boards decided to change because of being with a secure partner. In fact, the ones I know (including myself) decided to change because of the pain we experienced when our relationships did not work. It is during that grieving period that we started to consider our own role in things and sought help. Mirroring her, avoiding challenges and accepting a less then ideal situation in order to avoid conflict, doesn’t really lead to a desire to change, it just emphasizes that the status quo is ok. Obviously you have read a lot on the topic….but I and others have lived it. You are certainly welcome to go elsewhere if you feel that those of us who have been here for years and have walked the walk are not to your liking. 🙂. I am sure there are other boards out there that you can post on. |
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bluex
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Post by bluex on Feb 6, 2023 21:06:30 GMT
Why disagree you mean? Ah, an introverted disregard for expression of differing opinion i.e. disagreement and advice from specialists, therapists and counsellors, in favour of personal experience of some posters on this board. Very clever. Oh and wanted to add, the "collective wisdom" you solicited and are receiving here has been acquired through years of personal experience, both lived, and in the archives of this forum. If I had a nickel for every novice who came here posting as you do and rejected everyone's perspectives, quoted all the experts, and then finally crashed and burned when the object of their undying devotion didn't manifest their happy ever after... If it works for you and you're so sure why argue? Just go do you? |
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bluex
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Post by bluex on Feb 6, 2023 21:10:00 GMT
Ah, suggesting to someone who disagrees with you here to leave this forum. Very mature and secure. Haha. You are certainly welcome to go elsewhere if you feel that those of us who have been here for years and have walked the walk are not to your liking. 🙂. I am sure there are other boards out there that you can post on. |
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Post by tnr9 on Feb 6, 2023 21:14:42 GMT
Ah, suggesting to someone who disagrees with you here to leave this forum. Very mature and secure. Haha. You are certainly welcome to go elsewhere if you feel that those of us who have been here for years and have walked the walk are not to your liking. 🙂. I am sure there are other boards out there that you can post on. I am just saying that it seems to me we are not providing you the answers you seek and you are simply growing more and more defensive. You are certainly welcome to stay but the advice is the same. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2023 21:17:58 GMT
Why disagree you mean? Ah, an introverted disregard for expression of differing opinion i.e. disagreement and advice from specialists, therapists and counsellors, in favour of personal experience of some posters on this board. Very clever. Oh and wanted to add, the "collective wisdom" you solicited and are receiving here has been acquired through years of personal experience, both lived, and in the archives of this forum. If I had a nickel for every novice who came here posting as you do and rejected everyone's perspectives, quoted all the experts, and then finally crashed and burned when the object of their undying devotion didn't manifest their happy ever after... If it works for you and you're so sure why argue? Just go do you? So it wasn't our "collective wisdom" you were after... 😆 I'm sorry you got broken up with, best of luck and stick to the experts for the best results possible. |
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