|
|
Post by anne12 on Mar 7, 2023 2:16:35 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by sunrisequest on Mar 7, 2023 3:48:06 GMT
I wonder if it's the same thing with advice giving as well as hugs though, right? In both scenarios, they are intended to help. Not everyone wants that specific thing. But the act of asking the person first is a lovely, considerate thing to do and puts the decision in the other person's hands. I can't help but reach out to touch people when they're sharing something vulnerable. Definitely a hugger here as well.
I have a friend and we practice asking each other before we offer advice... sometimes I'm DYING to say the obvious thing... and sometimes I can tell she's dying to do the same, but we don't cross the boundary into pointed advice giving, and as a result, it feels like a really safe space to share some really vulnerable parts of ourselves and come to the big realisations ourselves, which feels very empowering. We all need to work through our processes ourselves and on our own timeline, but it feels wonderful to have supportive, empathetic people who stand next to you while you do it. True empathy still has boundaries. So it's also okay to take space from relationships and dynamics that are too draining, or put a time limit on how long you're willing to sit and be an ear to someone else's stuff.
Giving advice and being frustrated when someone else is making a mess of certain parts of their own lives certainly can and does trigger some of our own pain... it's confronting to figure out that we sometimes give advice to remove our own discomfort... your words are very humble and open @introvert Your journey certainly has brought you so many amazing learnings and I can feel your sense of peace around that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2023 4:01:39 GMT
I wonder if it's the same thing with advice giving as well as hugs though, right? In both scenarios, they are intended to help. Not everyone wants that specific thing. But the act of asking the person first is a lovely, considerate thing to do and puts the decision in the other person's hands. I can't help but reach out to touch people when they're sharing something vulnerable. Definitely a hugger here as well. I have a friend and we practice asking each other before we offer advice... sometimes I'm DYING to say the obvious thing... and sometimes I can tell she's dying to do the same, but we don't cross the boundary into pointed advice giving, and as a result, it feels like a really safe space to share some really vulnerable parts of ourselves and come to the big realisations ourselves, which feels very empowering. We all need to work through our processes ourselves and on our own timeline, but it feels wonderful to have supportive, empathetic people who stand next to you while you do it. True empathy still has boundaries. So it's also okay to take space from relationships and dynamics that are too draining, or put a time limit on how long you're willing to sit and be an ear to someone else's stuff. Giving advice and being frustrated when someone else is making a mess of certain parts of their own lives certainly can and does trigger some of our own pain... it's confronting to figure out that we sometimes give advice to remove our own discomfort... your words are very humble and open @introvert Your journey certainly has brought you so many amazing learnings and I can feel your sense of peace around that. Thank you for the kind words and yes I think they are the same... it seems we tend to automatically impose our own mechanisms on another until we become more self aware and move toward more secure relating. And I've moved into displays of connection and warmth that have not always been natural for me, so that's amazing too. |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Mar 7, 2023 14:44:46 GMT
I wonder if it's the same thing with advice giving as well as hugs though, right? In both scenarios, they are intended to help. Not everyone wants that specific thing. But the act of asking the person first is a lovely, considerate thing to do and puts the decision in the other person's hands. I can't help but reach out to touch people when they're sharing something vulnerable. Definitely a hugger here as well. I have a friend and we practice asking each other before we offer advice... sometimes I'm DYING to say the obvious thing... and sometimes I can tell she's dying to do the same, but we don't cross the boundary into pointed advice giving, and as a result, it feels like a really safe space to share some really vulnerable parts of ourselves and come to the big realisations ourselves, which feels very empowering. We all need to work through our processes ourselves and on our own timeline, but it feels wonderful to have supportive, empathetic people who stand next to you while you do it. True empathy still has boundaries. So it's also okay to take space from relationships and dynamics that are too draining, or put a time limit on how long you're willing to sit and be an ear to someone else's stuff. Giving advice and being frustrated when someone else is making a mess of certain parts of their own lives certainly can and does trigger some of our own pain... it's confronting to figure out that we sometimes give advice to remove our own discomfort... your words are very humble and open @introvert Your journey certainly has brought you so many amazing learnings and I can feel your sense of peace around that. I do agree that they are the same…they stem from the same desire…..I think advice has not been a place of safety for me because of my own childhood and the way advice was doled out to me….thus I don’t feel I have great mentors. In work, I have to give advice…because I am a project manager and that is where I am leaning into the unknown and uncomfortable. What I have found works well is….speak from an i perspective….always consider that the other person is doing the best he or her can and speak with care, keep it professional and not personal. In the last year, I have people coming to me asking for advice and I think that is a nice sign that I am getting better at this….but outside my closest friends…I still hug versus provide advice. |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Mar 7, 2023 14:48:52 GMT
Thank you so much Annie….. this rings so true….In all cases, however, we empaths haven’t learned to defend against stress in the same way as others do. We’re different in that respect. A noxious stimulus, such as an angry person, crowds, noise, or bright light can agitate us since our threshold for sensory overload is extremely low. in my case, sometimes an angry person will cause me to cry….especially if it is a family member. It is an automatic response. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2023 14:54:00 GMT
I wonder if it's the same thing with advice giving as well as hugs though, right? In both scenarios, they are intended to help. Not everyone wants that specific thing. But the act of asking the person first is a lovely, considerate thing to do and puts the decision in the other person's hands. I can't help but reach out to touch people when they're sharing something vulnerable. Definitely a hugger here as well. I have a friend and we practice asking each other before we offer advice... sometimes I'm DYING to say the obvious thing... and sometimes I can tell she's dying to do the same, but we don't cross the boundary into pointed advice giving, and as a result, it feels like a really safe space to share some really vulnerable parts of ourselves and come to the big realisations ourselves, which feels very empowering. We all need to work through our processes ourselves and on our own timeline, but it feels wonderful to have supportive, empathetic people who stand next to you while you do it. True empathy still has boundaries. So it's also okay to take space from relationships and dynamics that are too draining, or put a time limit on how long you're willing to sit and be an ear to someone else's stuff. Giving advice and being frustrated when someone else is making a mess of certain parts of their own lives certainly can and does trigger some of our own pain... it's confronting to figure out that we sometimes give advice to remove our own discomfort... your words are very humble and open @introvert Your journey certainly has brought you so many amazing learnings and I can feel your sense of peace around that. I do agree that they are the same…they stem from the same desire…..I think advice has not been a place of safety for me because of my own childhood and the way advice was doled out to me….thus I don’t feel I have great mentors. In work, I have to give advice…because I am a project manager and that is where I am leaning into the unknown and uncomfortable. What I have found works well is….speak from an i perspective….always consider that the other person is doing the best he or her can and speak with care, keep it professional and not personal. In the last year, I have people coming to me asking for advice and I think that is a nice sign that I am getting better at this….but outside my closest friends…I still hug versus provide advice. Yes I agree with this. I have a lot of people in my personal and professional life ask me for advice. If it's something I don't have experience with, I ask questions more than advising... because I'm no expert! If it's something I have experience with, I share that experience as a perspective to consider, and mostly just encourage empowerment and self care if that's at issue... or practical advice or suggest places to search for their answers. Dynamics can develop where if you are a confidant, advice is expected and appreciated, if trust, respect and autonomy is the foundation of the relarionship. . |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2023 15:00:02 GMT
Another thing about advice, I think it should only be offered without expectation. I don't ever feel any negativity from someone choosing to proceed in a way that I personally wouldn't... and I try to make that clear in any conversation. If people make mistakes that are hurting them, it's part of their process just like it was part of mine. The best support I can give them is to share and respect their autonomy and their own process. The only time I find it necessary to set a boundary is if they were relying on me to regulate them or serve as an emotional wastebasket, and it was causing me stress. Then it wouldn't be about them making mistakes (and if someone gains insight over time from a mistake, is it even a mistake?) it would simply be a boundary around my time an energy which needs to go toward handling my own affairs, first.
|
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Mar 7, 2023 15:12:01 GMT
Another thing about advice, I think it should only be offered without expectation. I don't ever feel any negativity from someone choosing to proceed in a way that I personally wouldn't... and I try to make that clear in any conversation. If people make mistakes that are hurting them, it's part of their process just like it was part of mine. The best support I can give them is to share and respect their autonomy and their own process. The only time I find it necessary to set a boundary is if they were relying on me to regulate them or serve as an emotional wastebasket, and it was causing me stress. Then it wouldn't be about them making mistakes (and if someone gains insight over time from a mistake, is it even a mistake?) it would simply be a boundary around my time an energy which needs to go toward handling my own affairs, first. I think this is very valuable advice because people can be at different stages when it comes to accepting advice and enacting on it. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2023 15:21:00 GMT
Another thing about advice, I think it should only be offered without expectation. I don't ever feel any negativity from someone choosing to proceed in a way that I personally wouldn't... and I try to make that clear in any conversation. If people make mistakes that are hurting them, it's part of their process just like it was part of mine. The best support I can give them is to share and respect their autonomy and their own process. The only time I find it necessary to set a boundary is if they were relying on me to regulate them or serve as an emotional wastebasket, and it was causing me stress. Then it wouldn't be about them making mistakes (and if someone gains insight over time from a mistake, is it even a mistake?) it would simply be a boundary around my time an energy which needs to go toward handling my own affairs, first. I think this is very valuable advice because people can be at different stages when it comes to accepting advice and enacting on it. Right... advice creates no obligation, it's just a perspective. Both parties to this kind of situation need boundaries, too. As I've gotten healthier boundaries and expectations in relationships, either we grew together or we grew apart. Outgrowing relationships and unhealthy dynamics is a thing for sure. |
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Mar 8, 2023 3:25:56 GMT
I'm going to post here without reading through all the comments (I will soon - and thank you!), but just seeing some of them - I wanted to clarify. I'm not a guru. I'm not looking to be right as far as I'm aware. I'm not even purporting to be right.
I think when I wrote this post I was not totally clear in myself what I was struggling with.
It is definitely a trigger of mine. So I'm trying to sort out how to deal with the trigger.
The trigger is people who don't take personal responsibility. Who act like they'll just land on their feet (and often they do) without needing to do much or just "manifesting" -- I worked hard to get where I am. Maybe not everyone needs to work hard?
But the metaphor I used was one of addiction. I think the thing I'm really talking about is a bit of codependency with people - and I compare that to addiction. Maybe that's not a great comparison. But instead of "advice" or me being right or knowing more. It's more like this: say you are sober and someone is actively drinking and wants to talk to you about subjects related to the consequences of their drinking. You see it b/c you've been there. You know what a mess your life was when you were drunk. And so this is how you know. Not because it makes you right and them wrong or them "on their own path" etc -- it's more like, "Yep, we'll, you're drinking. So what do you expect."
So if we stay with just that metaphor - not me being a guru - just more like me having spent the better part of 8 years and counting (it's always ongoing work) recovering from codependency (let's call it sobriety) -- what do I do then when I'm triggered by someone's "drinking"?
Do I speak up? Let them know how I see it? <---- This is mostly what I have been doing.
But I'm also a recovering people pleaser and so this can often feel disproportionately "harsh" to me -- which is why I kind of posted here. To get perspective and a handle on it.
Because I do want to be -- and am, generally -- forgiving of people and not just keep walling off b/c of triggers-- and perpetuating my FA ways. I've also been having immensely better boundaries that are getting better day by day. So that's making it easier.
But I seem to be swimming in this issue lately. Maybe the ole universe keeps showing me this lesson over and over. I am trying to not cut people off (which I can do, and have) and keep them in my life but what I've been doing is if someone starts giving me advice -- and their advice rings of co-dependence or avoidance (Oh, just let it go - stay positive) or something just is "off" -- it's a defensive mechanism, or unhealthy coping -- I call it out - not *them* out - more just that I'll say "I used to see it that way, but after I did such and such work, I now see it this way." I do it to sort of stay in the conversation. To not just feel triggered and maybe resentful or misunderstood or alone in my own ways I've recovered/and kind of alienated and then shut down or "disappear".
I'll admit, it does leave me wishing I were around people "in recovery" like me - who are aware and have done work and have paid prices and woken up, etc. That would make it easier on me! Less lonely even - but I think for the vast majority of people I'm going to come across unexamined stuff that is just them coping and surviving. But then if they do ask for advice or support or help - it's hard for me to NOT point to the elephant in the living room (i.e., the drinking, codependence, unaddressed ADHD/trauma) - etc - it's just what I know. And they can certainly take it or leave it.
Anyway, didn't mean to make this so long. But hopefully that helps clarify (and for myself too). Just trying to figure out where I stand on this since it just comes up sooo often with some of the friends in my circle.
|
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Mar 8, 2023 10:50:58 GMT
It’s different if they actually ask. If they ask, the gloves come off. As much as telling them what I see and referring them to someone else. I couldn’t sponsor a friend, for example.
Most people never wake up. This stuff, along with all the other avoidance methods, is uncomfortable. When the world spruiks comfort and quick fixes using those avoiding methods, why would you take time unless you need to?
I drank myself into divorce and destitution. I always knew I had somewhat of a problem but I didn’t think I needed a solution, then I didn’t think there was a solution, then I didn’t think I could do it (and I was right), but things got so bad that eventually I had to or I would die. It was for real, no second chances up my sleeve. Illnesses like mine kill people. I saw one bloke the same age as me walk away after 2 weeks. Same problem as me and he walked away from the treatment. Pride and other stuff can really get in the way. I won’t enable someone. If they ask about the problem, I freely talk about it, but they have to make the effort, or do something they really don’t want to do, show they mean business for me to go on.
|
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Mar 8, 2023 14:59:23 GMT
It’s different if they actually ask. If they ask, the gloves come off. As much as telling them what I see and referring them to someone else. I couldn’t sponsor a friend, for example. Most people never wake up. This stuff, along with all the other avoidance methods, is uncomfortable. When the world spruiks comfort and quick fixes using those avoiding methods, why would you take time unless you need to? I drank myself into divorce and destitution. I always knew I had somewhat of a problem but I didn’t think I needed a solution, then I didn’t think there was a solution, then I didn’t think I could do it (and I was right), but things got so bad that eventually I had to or I would die. It was for real, no second chances up my sleeve. Illnesses like mine kill people. I saw one bloke the same age as me walk away after 2 weeks. Same problem as me and he walked away from the treatment. Pride and other stuff can really get in the way. I won’t enable someone. If they ask about the problem, I freely talk about it, but they have to make the effort, or do something they really don’t want to do, show they mean business for me to go on. Well, yeah, the drinking thing is just a metaphor - but in staying with it, I can't be a "sponsor" to someone. When the world spruiks comfort and quick fixes using those avoiding methods, why would you take time unless you need to?This is prob what it comes down to for me - I could have avoided things by adopting new age concepts that "it'll all work out" and to think positive so the universe can "match" my positive thoughts or whatever - OR by drinking, drugs, TV, who knows. But I didn't. I don't know that I didn't because I'm some kind of hero. I just did hard sh*t for a long time. I got to the root of the codependency stuff - I still am - but I realize that's not appealing to most. So of course. And your story - wow. Yeah, I guess some people do have to hit rock bottom. I know I did. And no one was there to save me. Lots of people do have that -- parents, inheritance, the next dating partner in line willing to put up with their stuff. |
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Mar 8, 2023 15:14:02 GMT
I have a long-time friend who is like a kid in an adult body. I've said things to her over the years about codependency and she doesn't want to bother with it - she wants to "live her life" - so now she is in major crises. I watched as her teenage son was admitted to a psychiatric hospital. She desperately wanted me to help her (I really wouldn't -- it was all too much of a sinking ship). All the while tell me she was having a drum circle to her house that night (he was admitted). Or that she was freaked out about money and so anxious. (I offered to do a modality that I do with her - well, she asked me). I told her I would but that I was keeping boundaries like I do with my client. She could not understand why I couldn't "Just pick up the phone." And talk to her (we emailed etc). And that "If we could just talk on the phone" it would all be easier. I explained that I am also a single mom and work full time and homeschool my kid and have a schedule and that I couldn't but I could do x, y, z. She still messages me with things like "Normally, while I'm driving at this hour, I would call to talk to someone, but since you're not available." I mostly ignore this.
Now she's complaining that people want to not just let her have her "joy" (she wants to take off work and go away for a month to the beach). She's 56 years old. Her parents have to tell her not to risk losing her job. I just listen.
These are the kinds of examples I'm talking about. In this case, it's all boundaries. I give my opinion when she asks but not before then. I mostly don't engage. We did used to be good friends, but it's been years since I've talked to her mostly b/c it was one of those I just shut down. The last time we really talked I was anxious about going to court with my ex and she lectured me about "not thinking that way" and that I should "think positive because we WEREN'T GOING TO COURT" - 2 years later after horrible court, I just didn't have the energy to talk to her anymore. She also wasn't really there for me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2023 15:49:54 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Mar 8, 2023 16:35:50 GMT
I'm going to post here without reading through all the comments (I will soon - and thank you!), but just seeing some of them - I wanted to clarify. I'm not a guru. I'm not looking to be right as far as I'm aware. I'm not even purporting to be right. I think when I wrote this post I was not totally clear in myself what I was struggling with. It is definitely a trigger of mine. So I'm trying to sort out how to deal with the trigger. The trigger is people who don't take personal responsibility. Who act like they'll just land on their feet (and often they do) without needing to do much or just "manifesting" -- I worked hard to get where I am. Maybe not everyone needs to work hard? But the metaphor I used was one of addiction. I think the thing I'm really talking about is a bit of codependency with people - and I compare that to addiction. Maybe that's not a great comparison. But instead of "advice" or me being right or knowing more. It's more like this: say you are sober and someone is actively drinking and wants to talk to you about subjects related to the consequences of their drinking. You see it b/c you've been there. You know what a mess your life was when you were drunk. And so this is how you know. Not because it makes you right and them wrong or them "on their own path" etc -- it's more like, "Yep, we'll, you're drinking. So what do you expect." So if we stay with just that metaphor - not me being a guru - just more like me having spent the better part of 8 years and counting (it's always ongoing work) recovering from codependency (let's call it sobriety) -- what do I do then when I'm triggered by someone's "drinking"? Do I speak up? Let them know how I see it? <---- This is mostly what I have been doing. But I'm also a recovering people pleaser and so this can often feel disproportionately "harsh" to me -- which is why I kind of posted here. To get perspective and a handle on it. Because I do want to be -- and am, generally -- forgiving of people and not just keep walling off b/c of triggers-- and perpetuating my FA ways. I've also been having immensely better boundaries that are getting better day by day. So that's making it easier. But I seem to be swimming in this issue lately. Maybe the ole universe keeps showing me this lesson over and over. I am trying to not cut people off (which I can do, and have) and keep them in my life but what I've been doing is if someone starts giving me advice -- and their advice rings of co-dependence or avoidance (Oh, just let it go - stay positive) or something just is "off" -- it's a defensive mechanism, or unhealthy coping -- I call it out - not *them* out - more just that I'll say "I used to see it that way, but after I did such and such work, I now see it this way." I do it to sort of stay in the conversation. To not just feel triggered and maybe resentful or misunderstood or alone in my own ways I've recovered/and kind of alienated and then shut down or "disappear". I'll admit, it does leave me wishing I were around people "in recovery" like me - who are aware and have done work and have paid prices and woken up, etc. That would make it easier on me! Less lonely even - but I think for the vast majority of people I'm going to come across unexamined stuff that is just them coping and surviving. But then if they do ask for advice or support or help - it's hard for me to NOT point to the elephant in the living room (i.e., the drinking, codependence, unaddressed ADHD/trauma) - etc - it's just what I know. And they can certainly take it or leave it. Anyway, didn't mean to make this so long. But hopefully that helps clarify (and for myself too). Just trying to figure out where I stand on this since it just comes up sooo often with some of the friends in my circle. So…..there appears to be 2 types of conversations. One where the other person comes to you and you call out the situation and they stay “stuck”. In those instances where someone is actively staying stuck, I don’t engage…I might provide a listening ear…because we all need a listening ear. But if it causes a “trigger” for me, then I just start shrinking the time down to a manageable amount for me. We all have friends who do not see anything wrong with staying put and yes…it is a bit unfair when their stuckness does not bother them or somehow they get something good out of being stuck…but that is where I have to differentiate between circumstances and the stuckness….one doesn’t necessarily tie to the other. The other appears to be where you are sharing your own struggles and the other person offers advice that does not work for you (because you have tried it before). In that case, it can come across as the other person was not really taking “you” into consideration. I have run across that and I simply thank those individuals and make a mental note to not go them for advice or reveal deep details about my struggles with them. Unfortunately many people do not employ the art of active listening. Too often people will listen while forming a response and thus are not truly engaged. I only have a couple of friends I can go to this level with and I really cherish them. |
|
