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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2023 15:36:49 GMT
I wonder if you are triggered by these people being stuck because of this realization .... you are seeing that you are stuck in dysfunction yourself, long term, with the relationships you have been struggling with? As you've just described? I have seen in my own life when I'm really perturbed by someone who is doing something I struggle with in my own shadow. Seeing this has been painful and humbling to me but also VERY liberating. I come to see that what I am suffering from is actually not outside of my control (their frustrating ways) but is within my control (my choices, once I have self awareness). I see this as a natural part of growth, this awakening to what's going on in ourselves that creates our experience. Sometimes we cast our issues onto other people, it's part of the human experience. Not that they don't have issues, but some of the most frustrating conundrums have much less to do with others than they have to do with our own narrative and way of manifesting it in our lives. Well, what I mean here is more simple, and may or may not relate to "Shadow" in the sense of doing shadow work. I'm not thinking it out beyond what I'll try to describe here. You describe being frustrated with people who stay stuck and don't seem to be able to move forward in ways that seem to you to be obvious. They seem confused, and it's because they are not confronting the root problem. (I might be mis-stating this, it's what I have derived to the best of my understanding). In fact, it's dawned on you in your post this morning that you are perhaps recreating dysfunctional family dynamics, surrounding yourself with people like this. So, you're the one who you're frustrated with, you're the one who is having difficulty confronting the root problem (your relationship pattern with your friends who have big issues). You're the one stuck in a pattern that might seem obvious to other people. Maybe you're struggling with the fact that in spite of all the hard work you really have done, you're still in this predicament with toxic friendships. And you feel triggered by them because they are toxic, but also triggered by the fact that you're recreating unhealthy, familiar dynamics with them. So you can try to parse out all the different issues with each person, or take a look at the big picture which is you forming or maintaining friendships that require a lot of accommodating draining and confusing dynamics. I personally see nothing wrong with moving away from toxic dynamics rather than salvaging relationships that suck the life out of me. I have outgrown many relationships and replaced then with connections that meet me on a healthier level, as I have become healthier. I've gone through stretches of time when my connections were very few as I worked it out, and it's lonely. I've slipped into isolation and found comfort there as a dismissive, as well... it's all a big process. But in short what I'm suggesting is, maybe there's nothing to figure out here other than that you've outgrown connections that don't serve your highest good. That can be a painful realization, and one that seems to mean more isolation (abandonment). But we have to take off the old shoe that doesn't fit to put on the one that does in order to continue the journey, so to speak. That requires some trust in the ourselves and the universe or what have you. The letting go. I can't say if this is really true for you, I am only trying to give perspective that you can throw at the wall and see if it sticks if you know what I mean. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2023 15:53:59 GMT
I'd say the last thing that I was perturbed by in someone else was when I didn't feel my partner was understanding me... like why can't he just get this?!?!
It took me some real effort to realize that I had not really come to clear realizations inside myself about what was going on and what I needed, and so therefor hadn't expressed myself clearly to him so that he COULD understand.
We were in a major, painful conflict with this. Battling it out with him in frustrating conversations led me closer and closer to my truth, and I could finally 1) understand myself and 2) help him understand me.
So, I was casting him as the one who lacked empathy and understanding, when the sad reality was I didn't understand what was going on with me well enough to articulate it well and be vulnerable and authentic. Lacking that understanding of myself, I also lacked empathy for myself.
So in my lack of skill in that area, I cast him kind of as the 'bad guy', when there wasn't really a bad guy, just me,Introvert, really struggling with my own confusion and fear about how to ask for what I need in a very important area.
He doesn't understand me, can't empathize! < (is less than) I DON'T UNDERSTAND MYSELF, AND THEREFORE CAN'T EMPATHIZE WITH MYSELF AND ASSERT MYSELF THE WAY I NEED TO!
I was able to drill down to the core issues and it brought much needed healing and leveled me up in the area of personal growth. My partner and I were able to address some extremely important things together, we worked it out and how we want to partner going forward became more clear, more healthy, more secure.
In your case, I don't see it as a matter of needing to work out all the areas you can't seem to connect with these people though, I lean more toward thinking that you don't need to connect with these people at all, and you're keeping them around because these frustrating dynamics are familiar as you suggested.. but there again, I don't know, it's for you to decipher in your own process.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2023 15:58:31 GMT
I wonder if you are triggered by these people being stuck because of this realization .... you are seeing that you are stuck in dysfunction yourself, long term, with the relationships you have been struggling with? As you've just described? I have seen in my own life when I'm really perturbed by someone who is doing something I struggle with in my own shadow. Seeing this has been painful and humbling to me but also VERY liberating. I come to see that what I am suffering from is actually not outside of my control (their frustrating ways) but is within my control (my choices, once I have self awareness). I see this as a natural part of growth, this awakening to what's going on in ourselves that creates our experience. Sometimes we cast our issues onto other people, it's part of the human experience. Not that they don't have issues, but some of the most frustrating conundrums have much less to do with others than they have to do with our own narrative and way of manifesting it in our lives. I'd like to hear more about this - if you have an example. And feel free to use me as one!  In the meantime, I think what you're saying is - This is my shadow stuff. I'm not dysfunctional in the way these folks are - i.e., I'm not behaving in the same ways or have undiagnosed/untreated mental illness or if I do have any of it, I'm working hard on it . . . but my shadow stuff is that I'm seeing THEM as dysfunctional and my dysfunction is THEM? Lol? Sorry, I just get lost a little with shadow work - it's like a hall of mirrors. And, them, meaning my relationships with them - not them as humans.
I have seen in my own life when I'm really perturbed by someone who is doing something I struggle with in my own shadow.
Yes, would love an example b/c once I'm grounded in the concept, I think I can apply it better. TY! Yes, right or wrong what I'm suggesting is that you see them as dysfunctional but might need to realize that your dysfunction is the fact that you're in a relationship with people incapable of being healthy with you. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2023 16:05:08 GMT
Another key point that I see...
You want desperately for someone to "be in it" with you and I get that.
But you're trying to get blood from a turnip when you are trying to get a mutually supportive relationship from people who have demonstrated a clear inability to achieve that due to their own mental health issues.
Trying to get blood from a turnip is futile. You have to give up on the turnip at some point.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2023 16:10:53 GMT
Do you collect toxic people?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2023 17:28:00 GMT
Maybe you have unspeakable grief under it all, and need to grieve. I don't like the words unhealthy and dysfunctional and insecure so much although they are easy ways to label "not healed". Grief is simply unhealed. So many of the things we encounter involve grief buried deep inside because it seems it will swallow us like a grave. I digress. This is deep stuff, keep going, you're doing good even if you don't have the answers yet.
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Post by seeking on Mar 9, 2023 18:19:18 GMT
In your case, I don't see it as a matter of needing to work out all the areas you can't seem to connect with these people though, I lean more toward thinking that you don't need to connect with these people at all, and you're keeping them around because these frustrating dynamics are familiar as you suggested.. but there again, I don't know, it's for you to decipher in your own process. Ohhhhhh..... Okay, I'm in between meetings and having my own epiphanies and kind of skimming through what you wrote to come back to it later, and when I read this, this just hit me---- The thought of NOT having these people makes me feel abandoned - like all those sensations I described in an earlier post -- heavy, dead, collapsed, wind knocked out of me. But I used to go through that with my family and separation. Can't live with them, can't live without them. And a sense of, Well doesn't everyone have issues/problems/dysfunction (as in, so therefore may as well stick with these ones) - and I have kind of proven to myself that's true. My father for instance, I can see the good sides. Love him now. With my bipolar (undiagnosed/untreated) fried, I can adore her and appreciate her ability to laugh at herself, go deep, not take things too seriously. The vulnerability of my very dissociative spiritually bypassing friend. So I get so darned confused. But I suppose that confusion can also help me not feel abandoned. Obviously, it's really the abandonment that I have to work with. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 9, 2023 18:25:34 GMT
The other two little epiphanies I had before reading more here and scurrying around to other things was that...
Some of this triggering is not being seen/known (which can lead into the abandonment) - like with all these people I'm describing - and that is definitely a trigger from family.
But I can also see @introvert - how that ties into the shadow piece here -- I'm abandoning myself. I'm not seeing/witnessing/knowing myself.
And the other thing was that the reason why I seek validation (which I was also mentioning here) is b/c I'm afraid I'm only in my own "stuff" and shadowy parts/projections and can't see my way out of it so I need the external "check in" to say "Well, actually this person is abusing you" then at least it cuts the work in half! I'm not spending hours going, is this me? Is this them? Would other people (who maybe have this stuff more healed or sorted out) do this or that?
That's all.
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Post by seeking on Mar 10, 2023 0:49:36 GMT
Well, what I mean here is more simple, and may or may not relate to "Shadow" in the sense of doing shadow work. I'm not thinking it out beyond what I'll try to describe here. You describe being frustrated with people who stay stuck and don't seem to be able to move forward in ways that seem to you to be obvious. They seem confused, and it's because they are not confronting the root problem. (I might be mis-stating this, it's what I have derived to the best of my understanding). In fact, it's dawned on you in your post this morning that you are perhaps recreating dysfunctional family dynamics, surrounding yourself with people like this. So, you're the one who you're frustrated with, you're the one who is having difficulty confronting the root problem (your relationship pattern with your friends who have big issues). You're the one stuck in a pattern that might seem obvious to other people. Maybe you're struggling with the fact that in spite of all the hard work you really have done, you're still in this predicament with toxic friendships. And you feel triggered by them because they are toxic, but also triggered by the fact that you're recreating unhealthy, familiar dynamics with them. So you can try to parse out all the different issues with each person, or take a look at the big picture which is you forming or maintaining friendships that require a lot of accommodating draining and confusing dynamics. I personally see nothing wrong with moving away from toxic dynamics rather than salvaging relationships that suck the life out of me. I have outgrown many relationships and replaced then with connections that meet me on a healthier level, as I have become healthier. I've gone through stretches of time when my connections were very few as I worked it out, and it's lonely. I've slipped into isolation and found comfort there as a dismissive, as well... it's all a big process. But in short what I'm suggesting is, maybe there's nothing to figure out here other than that you've outgrown connections that don't serve your highest good. That can be a painful realization, and one that seems to mean more isolation (abandonment). But we have to take off the old shoe that doesn't fit to put on the one that does in order to continue the journey, so to speak. That requires some trust in the ourselves and the universe or what have you. The letting go. I can't say if this is really true for you, I am only trying to give perspective that you can throw at the wall and see if it sticks if you know what I mean. I really really appreciate this, Introvert. I don't know why I don't feel ready to take this step. I think that's why I'm here going - are these friendships like REALLY bad? Or just a little bad, or salvageable, or . . . etc. etc. I don't know why it's so hard for me to know that myself or get perspective on that. Maybe the "not knowing" keeps me away from the awful feeling of loneliness and abandoment or even from having to show up differently myself. I'm having that healthier relationships feel ----------- boring, lonely, scary, unfamiliar thing that I've done with men in the past. Ugh. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2023 1:09:58 GMT
Well, what I mean here is more simple, and may or may not relate to "Shadow" in the sense of doing shadow work. I'm not thinking it out beyond what I'll try to describe here. You describe being frustrated with people who stay stuck and don't seem to be able to move forward in ways that seem to you to be obvious. They seem confused, and it's because they are not confronting the root problem. (I might be mis-stating this, it's what I have derived to the best of my understanding). In fact, it's dawned on you in your post this morning that you are perhaps recreating dysfunctional family dynamics, surrounding yourself with people like this. So, you're the one who you're frustrated with, you're the one who is having difficulty confronting the root problem (your relationship pattern with your friends who have big issues). You're the one stuck in a pattern that might seem obvious to other people. Maybe you're struggling with the fact that in spite of all the hard work you really have done, you're still in this predicament with toxic friendships. And you feel triggered by them because they are toxic, but also triggered by the fact that you're recreating unhealthy, familiar dynamics with them. So you can try to parse out all the different issues with each person, or take a look at the big picture which is you forming or maintaining friendships that require a lot of accommodating draining and confusing dynamics. I personally see nothing wrong with moving away from toxic dynamics rather than salvaging relationships that suck the life out of me. I have outgrown many relationships and replaced then with connections that meet me on a healthier level, as I have become healthier. I've gone through stretches of time when my connections were very few as I worked it out, and it's lonely. I've slipped into isolation and found comfort there as a dismissive, as well... it's all a big process. But in short what I'm suggesting is, maybe there's nothing to figure out here other than that you've outgrown connections that don't serve your highest good. That can be a painful realization, and one that seems to mean more isolation (abandonment). But we have to take off the old shoe that doesn't fit to put on the one that does in order to continue the journey, so to speak. That requires some trust in the ourselves and the universe or what have you. The letting go. I can't say if this is really true for you, I am only trying to give perspective that you can throw at the wall and see if it sticks if you know what I mean. I really really appreciate this, Introvert. I don't know why I don't feel ready to take this step. I think that's why I'm here going - are these friendships like REALLY bad? Or just a little bad, or salvageable, or . . . etc. etc. I don't know why it's so hard for me to know that myself or get perspective on that. Maybe the "not knowing" keeps me away from the awful feeling of loneliness and abandoment or even from having to show up differently myself. I'm having that healthier relationships feel ----------- boring, lonely, scary, unfamiliar thing that I've done with men in the past. Ugh. Well, its understandable though, its a really deep process. Perhaps you can reframe it, if it makes it something more realistic for you to work with, over time. You're growing your awareness which is good, and there is no pressure to become aware and then immediately change something. For me, I can look back and say that the relationships I was in fit where I was at, even if that was uncomfortable and I wish I was in a better place. I had emotionally imbalanced, toxic, dysfunctional, (whatever you want to call them) relationships because I didn't yet have the self awareness and relational skills to have the relationship I have now. I was in emotionally unavailable relationships when I was still emotionally unavailable to myself. I accepted poor behavior because I was unsure of the validity of my feelings and perspectives too. So I had to work with that, incubate it, let myself evolve with it. There was a time it became clear to me that what I was in was definitely not ok with me, and once I got to that place I took the next step that I needed to take. It was all an evolution of my awareness and it started by not questioning every little thing I felt. It turns out, a lot of what felt bad genuinely was bad, for me. At some point, it's ok to honor your feelings whether anyone else would agree with them or not!! Over time you can fine tune your decision making around what feels RIGHT and Nourishing to you. If you're aware of abandonment issues keeping you in things that don't feel good, then just be aware of that. Be mindful of that, accepting of that, and gentle with yourself about that. Try to not let your thoughts shift over to fault finding in the other people, recognize that they are as they are, and train your mind back to "and I maintain these relationships that don't feel good to me because I am triggered into abandonment pain by the thought of letting them go." I guess it's a kind of radical acceptance, and that can take the place of over analyzing and leading yourself into confusion. Just let it be what it is, stay mindful of that, love yourself around that. You have seen evolution in yourself and you can probably trust that it will continue. All you need to do, in my opinion, is be mindful every day of what you KNOW, and that is that the thought of making a change triggers abandonment. Thats great self awareness, and it can lead you to other discoveries if you keep it in mind. |
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Post by sunrisequest on Mar 10, 2023 4:36:23 GMT
I can identify with it being a confusing process to figure out whether a relationship or friendship is salvageable, or whether it's time to let go. It can take time to really figure this out.
I feel like you've got a ton of great advice on this thread...
But I wonder if you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself to have it all figured out for each friendship and what each interaction is showing you... Instead of analysing each interaction, monitor how you feel instead? Are you at ease? Do you feel light? Do you feel supported? Are they depositing into the friendship as much as you are? Are your boundaries being respected? If not, then something needs to shift, cos it's otherwise just a relationship that drains you of your life energy.
Or what about a gentle approach of creating some distance or implementing a few boundaries in the friendships that are causing you frustration, and see how it fits for size? It doesn't need to be a cold hard drop or severance, it can just be a soft stepping back, perhaps even explaining that you aren't as available at the moment as you're focusing on some other things in your life so that it doesn't create drama where none is needed.
As part of this process there also needs to be some acceptance of yourself, and where you're at. Not wanting to be around people who display certain behaviours/characteristics is so okay...
I personally don't spend much time with people who don't make healthy lifestyle choices for themselves. Not to say I can't find a friendly connection with those people, or hang out once in a while... but the people I choose to put in my inner circle are people who look after themselves mentally, spiritually and physically... now that I think about it, this is actually without exception for all of my close friends. not that they're without their problems, but they at least have a fairly decent level of commitment to growth, health and wellbeing. But 5 years ago, that was not the case at all, so my friendship group has evolved dramatically along with my growth. I think that's what Introvert is saying. Your growth is going to cause you to look at your group and find it doesn't fit... because you're not who you were. I think that means real progress.
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Post by sunrisequest on Mar 10, 2023 4:50:39 GMT
Also, I remember feeling absolutely destitute, super super disconnected from the world and abandoned at the time I let go the people in my life who no longer fit... it sounds like the way you're feeling is par for course. It's not easy but it honestly does sound like you're on the right path. It's also the chance for you to hold yourself strong through these feelings... might not feel like it at the time, but this brave process of shedding can bring a sense of wholeness and security in itself
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Post by lovebunny on Mar 10, 2023 13:23:00 GMT
Sounds like maybe it's time to make some new friends, and see if you still struggle with the same feelings and issues.
When I was gearing up to leave my husband like 10 years ago, I spent a lot of time building up my support system, forming a whole new group of friends. At the time, I was going for people who were "fun," and went out a lot, people who could bring me back into the world. They had "big" personalities and good looks and talent. Many of them have since moved away, sadly one of my dearest friends passed away in 2021 from mixing pills and booze.
Now, in my current breakup, I find that the people I previously considered my "besties" aren't the ones I'm gravitating towards at all. The people I want to spend time with now are on the whole more sober, less interested in appearances, more grounded. I have been having a very hard time getting on with the person I have for years considered my best friend on the island, who now I'm realizing is a lot like my mother in her inability to handle someone else's strong emotions, and her intolerance for any amount of discomfort. Frankly, I've been avoiding being alone with her.
I think maybe your growth is leading you to seek out different friendships that reflect who you are trying to become? It makes perfect sense to lean towards people who make you feel comfortable and safe and who give you something back rather than friends who drain you or bring conflict.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 10, 2023 15:00:31 GMT
It might be beneficial to read these comments with your therapist. We can only gather information from what you post, whereas your therapist can hear your inflection, see your body language and go more in depth. Each of us had our own unique journey and some advice might resonate while other advice will not. Your therapist can discuss all of this with you. 🙂
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Post by seeking on Mar 10, 2023 23:01:04 GMT
Do you collect toxic people? This is a great question. But I wouldn't say 'collect' And I think there is a spectrum of toxic. I wouldn't stand to be around anyone really toxic. I think the people in question have "just enough" in the mix to be familiar on some level (and confusing). If someone is outright toxic, I wouldn't be around them. I cut off someone I was close with years ago b/c she proved to be outright toxic and like insane. Even my body was having pain around her. That's when I knew enough was enough. We reconnected last year b/c of our daughters and both suddenly homeschooling but we didn't reconnect - I kept the intention of letting our daughters connect and then even that got to be too much with her and it was boundary after boundary until she realized I wasn't going to let her in -I had to REALLY spell it out too. My ex was probably the other really toxic person in my life. I would say they were both narcissist types. The people in question aren't narcs - more just run of the mill codependency and dysfunction, which I figure is true of most people unless they've done some work or had that rare amazing upbringing? My sister is borderline narc-ish but not really and toxic-but not like full blown. And we seem to have a complicit agreement that we talk about necessary things and not really more than that. I'm seeing her tomorrow but it's so our girls can hang out. And that's largely why I stay in contact. |
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