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Post by seeking on Mar 8, 2023 20:48:56 GMT
Yes. It can. I know her history and I know she's a pretty wounded person with some developmental trauma. I asked her recently b/c of the modality we are doing if she might be bipolar (I had to ask) and she said, "Well if I am, I am high functioning." She'd never go into that or look at that for herself. She really seems to think this is her world and other people need to fit into it. The interesting thing is that since I haven't been close to her like I was probably 3-4 years ago, now I'm seeing all the toxic signs. So I've changed. Which is a nice affirmation for me. But it's also sad. I am trying to reach out to different people for connections. I was happy to try to help her through this crises in the way that I could (not the way she would have wanted from me). But I a little bit dread that she said "When are we going to hang out?" And "Am I ever going to see you???" and I sort of said, "Of course." But her lack of boundaries gives me a lot of anxiety and even makes me feel a bit unsafe. I feel like I need validation on each of these different situations. Like here, you sent this link and I'm like, "Yep" and I finally admit it to myself. My therapist is actually having me look at this right now (it's 2 weeks between sessions) - about why I think I need validation like this from others. I've been reflecting on it. I guess when it comes down to it, I can't seem to trust my instincts completely -- like maybe I'm just "being dramatic" or it's my own stuff. It's very hard for me to clearly say "This person is being toxic, and I need to _________" I still am not entirely sure why. |
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 8, 2023 21:54:07 GMT
I feel like I need validation on each of these different situations. Like here, you sent this link and I'm like, "Yep" and I finally admit it to myself. My therapist is actually having me look at this right now (it's 2 weeks between sessions) - about why I think I need validation like this from others. I've been reflecting on it. I guess when it comes down to it, I can't seem to trust my instincts completely -- like maybe I'm just "being dramatic" or it's my own stuff. It's very hard for me to clearly say "This person is being toxic, and I need to _________" I still am not entirely sure why. Hey seeking…..do you know who is at the root of your need for outside validation? I know that for myself, I had to address things with my mom first. Once that relationship improved, it spilled over into other relationships. Just an idea. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 8, 2023 22:08:43 GMT
Hey seeking …..do you know who is at the root of your need for outside validation? I know that for myself, I had to address things with my mom first. Once that relationship improved, it spilled over into other relationships. Just an idea. Not sure what you mean by who? I wasn't even aware that needing outside validation was wrong. I also can be a bit neurodivergent, so generally see the world a bit differently and sometimes ask the "normy" response -- or even someone who is "securely" attached - |
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 8, 2023 23:07:15 GMT
Hey seeking …..do you know who is at the root of your need for outside validation? I know that for myself, I had to address things with my mom first. Once that relationship improved, it spilled over into other relationships. Just an idea. Not sure what you mean by who? I wasn't even aware that needing outside validation was wrong. I also can be a bit neurodivergent, so generally see the world a bit differently and sometimes ask the "normy" response -- or even someone who is "securely" attached - I think there is a difference between trusting oneself and then validating with others….and relying on outside validation in place of trusting yourself. The first puts the power in your hands, the second puts the power in other peoples hands. I used to rely so much on others because I had internalized that my choices were selfish, wrong and crazy….so with that feedback looping in my head….even though I had a strong sense of who I was…I did not trust myself and I relied on external validations. Perhaps your story is different….but part of my peoplepleasing, enmeshment and outward focus was due to faulty tapes and I was thinking perhaps you too might have experienced that growing up. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 8, 2023 23:54:30 GMT
I think there is a difference between trusting oneself and then validating with others….and relying on outside validation in place of trusting yourself. The first puts the power in your hands, the second puts the power in other peoples hands. I used to rely so much on others because I had internalized that my choices were selfish, wrong and crazy….so with that feedback looping in my head….even though I had a strong sense of who I was…I did not trust myself and I relied on external validations. Perhaps your story is different….but part of my peoplepleasing, enmeshment and outward focus was due to faulty tapes and I was thinking perhaps you too might have experienced that growing up. I think I'm the former. I definitely have super strong instincts and intuition-- and I can trust it. But I don't always know what to *do* about it - like reading what tnr9 just wrote, I'm going - oh, okay so you put up with some of this with lots of boundaries - that's an interesting option. Etc. But come to think of it maybe I don't always trust it. I do think my parents both taught me how to people please and over-ride things. So in terms of the "who" - it would be both of them. But yes, definitely faulty tapes. And I also think I have a tendency to shut down and shut people out and I want to try to not do that. Like right now I'm trying to navigate big differences with someone around her believing in like the age of Aquarius and second coming of christ -- she talks to me as if I know what she's even talking about or as if I believe it too? (And that's her enmeshment, I think) and I have to keep like differentiating. And finally understanding her enough to go - oh, I don't see it that way, but that's cool if you do. Before I was just shutting down and once ended things and now am trying to stay open. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 8, 2023 23:55:22 GMT
So…..there appears to be 2 types of conversations. One where the other person comes to you and you call out the situation and they stay “stuck”. In those instances where someone is actively staying stuck, I don’t engage…I might provide a listening ear…because we all need a listening ear. But if it causes a “trigger” for me, then I just start shrinking the time down to a manageable amount for me. We all have friends who do not see anything wrong with staying put and yes…it is a bit unfair when their stuckness does not bother them or somehow they get something good out of being stuck…but that is where I have to differentiate between circumstances and the stuckness….one doesn’t necessarily tie to the other. The other appears to be where you are sharing your own struggles and the other person offers advice that does not work for you (because you have tried it before). In that case, it can come across as the other person was not really taking “you” into consideration. I have run across that and I simply thank those individuals and make a mental note to not go them for advice or reveal deep details about my struggles with them. Unfortunately many people do not employ the art of active listening. Too often people will listen while forming a response and thus are not truly engaged. I only have a couple of friends I can go to this level with and I really cherish them. This is helpful! So you don't end the relationship - you just have lots of strategies and boundaries - yes, this is what I was looking for help with. So thank you. |
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Post by cherrycola on Mar 9, 2023 0:59:55 GMT
Going to build on what tnr9 was saying. I know personally I can get triggered by people who endlessly complain and stay stuck. But I can see it as a reflection of how hard and critical I am on myself. Maybe also a touch of jealously. My inner dialogue could be something like "I've done all this hard painful work and look at them, just carelessly going through life, and things are working out for them". I'm still learning but when I can separate out me from them and just let them kinda "be" it's easier to listen and validate. Like others have said, if it gets to be too much then yeah, put up some walls or distance, but sometimes it helps to recognize WHY we are bothered by their behavior. As for the second type of person who can't provide validation. Depending on the person and your relationship with them, some people would 100% do it if they knew how. Two examples: My ex husband was terrible at validation (to be fair, so was I) often would just stay silent because he didn't know what to do or say and he felt awkward. Through honest conversations he has learned that saying "I don't know what to say" is enough. Or any variation of it, just something that is acknowledging my statement and my feelings. As he learned I would react so positively to these little gestures he now does them more and more, and I validate him back. It's turned into this two way street of teaching each other how to validate. My best friend is a "fixer". I'm someone who feels invalidated when people try to "fix" my problems. Maybe not a great match but again she wanted to learn how to show me love. So I explained that to me, a hyper independent adult her advice can land wrong. When I can remember to do it, I will start with "Hey, I really just need someone to listen to me right now, do you have some bandwidth?" this shows her I value her emotional energy, and also reminds her to take off the problem solving hat. Alternatively, If I don't do that and she keeps trying to fix I'll let her know it's landing wrong and I just need a listener. Recently we were chatting and I was explaining a problem and she said back "yeah". Then she explained she was so sorry because that was the best she could do, and I was so happy I hugged her and told her I appreciated it so so much. So now when I complain and she says "yeah" or "that sucks" I KNOW she is trying. And for my part when she offers me advice I try to just accept it graciously. I think even just the act of having these conversations with these people let me know how much they cared and made the relationships safer on both sides. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 9, 2023 1:22:09 GMT
I think even just the act of having these conversations with these people let me know how much they cared and made the relationships safer on both sides. Yes, this. This is what I'm learning. if someone is willing to stay in it with you and do things differently and communicate about it and be aware of themselves, that's really all I'm needing/asking for. Even the "toxic" friend above and I have had conversations in the past where she will eventually say "Oh, I see it now." What she was doing and why I responded poorly. She does try. But she can be such a "force" it's overwhelming. As far as the I had it hard/look how easy they have it, I think my best guess is feeling abandoned - like isn't there anyone who can *be in it* with me - even if we're not in a close relationship. I have a hang up around being deeply real and really here and two feet on the ground and facing stuff and not avoiding it. And I have to let myself just like zone out to TV sometimes b/c I can be too much that way - but there are other people who think they are a hero because they did like one minute of it and it's hard for me to celebrate their heroicness with them. And also, it just makes things feel lonely when it comes down to it. I think it's the loneliness factor that's the biggest thing for me. |
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 9, 2023 1:31:05 GMT
I think even just the act of having these conversations with these people let me know how much they cared and made the relationships safer on both sides. Yes, this. This is what I'm learning. if someone is willing to stay in it with you and do things differently and communicate about it and be aware of themselves, that's really all I'm needing/asking for. Even the "toxic" friend above and I have had conversations in the past where she will eventually say "Oh, I see it now." What she was doing and why I responded poorly. She does try. But she can be such a "force" it's overwhelming. As far as the I had it hard/look how easy they have it, I think my best guess is feeling abandoned - like isn't there anyone who can *be in it* with me - even if we're not in a close relationship. I have a hang up around being deeply real and really here and two feet on the ground and facing stuff and not avoiding it. And I have to let myself just like zone out to TV sometimes b/c I can be too much that way - but there are other people who think they are a hero because they did like one minute of it and it's hard for me to celebrate their heroicness with them. And also, it just makes things feel lonely when it comes down to it. I think it's the loneliness factor that's the biggest thing for me. I am wondering if there is a hobby that requires being fully present for a long period of time….like rock climbing or some other sport….because it is nice to find likeminded people. |
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Post by mrob on Mar 9, 2023 7:11:24 GMT
This is all great stuff.
Another thing that works for me is that I don’t need to be nice to everyone, and that there are some people that, if I let them, will suck every bit of whatever it is they want from me. It could be money, goodwill, time, whatever. I have to put myself first to make myself last (to prevail). Like my Mum, they may be blissfully unaware. Some are aware, others are malicious. I couldn’t believe the last one was true until it happened.
Knocked me for a sixer. I cried for months over that. It was like innocence dissolving in front of me.
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Post by mrob on Mar 9, 2023 14:26:17 GMT
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Post by seeking on Mar 9, 2023 14:34:41 GMT
Thanks, everyone, I feel gutted. I'm staying with this sensation in my body b/c it's interesting to me. It feels like I've been punched in the gut, zapped of energy, it's heavy, and like a collapse. I think it's a very familiar feeling that I avoid - which is abandonment. I'm a little surprised, but not. (And then on top of that my mind is going. "So what does this mean? You're AP, after all?")
Another part of me knows it will pass. Another part feels completely alone. And another is trying to sort of "pep talk" me through it--like the people you're talking about here are all pretty unhealthy in ways.... so what if they can't show up for you or x, y, z ...
Maybe it's kind of like when I used to get upset about men who weren't even worth getting upset about. I'd do flips over guys who gave me breadcrumbs. And here I am doing flips over someone who is undiagnosed bipolar and can be pretty toxic and overwhelming, someone else who is pretty much agoraphobic and in denial about it, someone else who is being passive aggressive with me rather than addressing our conflict, which I've tried to do a number of times. ... and another person who seems kind of clueless.
Even as I write this it sort of reminds me of my family. Like, gee, why not re-assemble your family in the people around you and then feel abandoned by all of them. Re-enactment, much?
And just as a side-note, I don't mean to sound critical/judgmental about the people I'm referring to by labeling them that way, but I do have to step back and realize that half of them are dealing with pretty major mental illness (though I would say 1 is "high functioning") and the other just kind of clueless... while the passive-aggressive one is potentially bad-mouthing me to others, which sucks.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2023 14:46:40 GMT
I wonder if you are triggered by these people being stuck because of this realization
.... you are seeing that you are stuck in dysfunction yourself, long term, with the relationships you have been struggling with? As you've just described?
I have seen in my own life when I'm really perturbed by someone who is doing something I struggle with in my own shadow. Seeing this has been painful and humbling to me but also VERY liberating. I come to see that what I am suffering from is actually not outside of my control (their frustrating ways) but is within my control (my choices, once I have self awareness).
I see this as a natural part of growth, this awakening to what's going on in ourselves that creates our experience.
Sometimes we cast our issues onto other people, it's part of the human experience. Not that they don't have issues, but some of the most frustrating conundrums have much less to do with others than they have to do with our own narrative and way of manifesting it in our lives.
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Post by seeking on Mar 9, 2023 15:17:38 GMT
I wonder if you are triggered by these people being stuck because of this realization .... you are seeing that you are stuck in dysfunction yourself, long term, with the relationships you have been struggling with? As you've just described? I have seen in my own life when I'm really perturbed by someone who is doing something I struggle with in my own shadow. Seeing this has been painful and humbling to me but also VERY liberating. I come to see that what I am suffering from is actually not outside of my control (their frustrating ways) but is within my control (my choices, once I have self awareness). I see this as a natural part of growth, this awakening to what's going on in ourselves that creates our experience. Sometimes we cast our issues onto other people, it's part of the human experience. Not that they don't have issues, but some of the most frustrating conundrums have much less to do with others than they have to do with our own narrative and way of manifesting it in our lives. I'd like to hear more about this - if you have an example. And feel free to use me as one!  In the meantime, I think what you're saying is - This is my shadow stuff. I'm not dysfunctional in the way these folks are - i.e., I'm not behaving in the same ways or have undiagnosed/untreated mental illness or if I do have any of it, I'm working hard on it . . . but my shadow stuff is that I'm seeing THEM as dysfunctional and my dysfunction is THEM? Lol? Sorry, I just get lost a little with shadow work - it's like a hall of mirrors. And, them, meaning my relationships with them - not them as humans.
I have seen in my own life when I'm really perturbed by someone who is doing something I struggle with in my own shadow.
Yes, would love an example b/c once I'm grounded in the concept, I think I can apply it better. TY! |
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Post by seeking on Mar 9, 2023 15:23:14 GMT
I'm just posting this separately so it wasn't in my reply to you, Introvert.... I'm trying to look at these through the lens of my shadow ...
This is what I'm trying to figure out what this looks like.
1) Collaborate with person, things don't work out, communicate honestly with person and stay committed to collaboration. Have person behave passive-aggressively with me, go behind back, bad mouth me, avoid me.
(What would an example of MY shadow be in that?)
2) Talk to some guy for a year from dating site. Have guy keep asking to meet while he flies around meeting people from dating site (which I find intimidating). Have all my avoidance stuff come up, try to look at it/deal with it. Finally say, heck with it, meet the darn guy. Go to settle on a date, while he tells you, oddly and excitedly, that he's just formed a meet up in his state for people on that dating site? Feel bewildered and unsure again.
I can't think of what my shadow would be there, but maybe I can.
3) Have friend re-appear to ask for help/in crises. Have boundaries. Try to help in the way that feels healthy to me and like it won't sink my ship. Have her make passive-aggressive comments. Have her ask your opinion on sending her child away. Listen as she complains about how everyone holds her back from joy. Watch her not confront the challenges in her life. Step back to protect self. Try to be honest with her and direct when appropriate.
4) Friend from long ago (who just reconnected with) -- in major crises. Leaning on me for support since I walked a very similar path not that long ago. She is taking advice I give her (call domestic violence, get an attorney, etc). She does eventually get therapist. One day she is possibly putting children in danger b/c she's in a blindspot. Other people around her are saying same thing. She does it anyway and later calls and wants to talk about something completely unrelated - like her childhood and missing dance lessons. Tell her later, that was scary that she seemed really dissociated. And that I feel worried for her and others do too. Have her tell you that you are intense and gave her a panic attack and cut you off.
5) I don't even know how to explain the last one. We're online friends, send voice memos. She struggles hard with phobias and pretty much agoraphobia. You connect about many things that are similar in your lives, and then gently start to offer thoughts (since it's what you do for a living too). Get triggered, end things, own it/work through it. Come back. Learn to be okay with her way of having people do things for her, get money and stuff handed to her (because she said she uses law of attraction). Work on that. Work on triggers. Not sure what's really going on with this one, does feel quite "shadowy" - still figuring it out.
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