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Post by seeking on Mar 10, 2023 23:03:06 GMT
It might be beneficial to read these comments with your therapist. We can only gather information from what you post, whereas your therapist can hear your inflection, see your body language and go more in depth. Each of us had our own unique journey and some advice might resonate while other advice will not. Your therapist can discuss all of this with you. 🙂 Yes, I wouldn't read the comments, but this has offered me space to deeper than I could in my own head, and explore a lot and have a lot of little breakthroughs so I'm looking forward to talking to him about it Monday - granted, the session is 50 minutes and we've also allotted 10 minutes of that session time -- maybe even 15 minutes -- to starting to talk about my ex (which he knows nothing about). So it's all very structured and focused. But these are things I've been focusing on - boundaries, relationships, etc. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 10, 2023 23:11:13 GMT
Another key point that I see... You want desperately for someone to "be in it" with you and I get that. But you're trying to get blood from a turnip when you are trying to get a mutually supportive relationship from people who have demonstrated a clear inability to achieve that due to their own mental health issues. Trying to get blood from a turnip is futile. You have to give up on the turnip at some point. My sister is like this. The others have given me more than my family has, so I think that still feels like "something" I honestly don't know what the experience is of someone giving more than crumbs or just what they can given their circumstances. Like I have a mom friend who is single (truly single, no ex) - and she has offered me more than most people and when she does she comments on my inability to receive. My daughter has also commented on this - she notices how my sister takes and takes from my BIL - how aunt "x" is "selfish" and we talked a little about their dynamics. And she said that I would never be with someone like my BIL who does everything -- it was shocking to notice this because I was always a little jealous of what my sister has, and it's like I would have no ability to have any of that since I have such a hard time with receiving - never mind someone "doing everything" for you. That last part is pretty unhealthy. My sister acts like she's completely disabled and my BIL has done EVERYTHING for years, though now there is more bitterness and resentment on his part. I just can't imagine what it would be like to be comfortable having anyone do that much. I used to let my mother help me a lot. But she didn't guilt me, never asked for anything in return, seemed to do it selflessly and that seemed okay. But never really anyone else... |
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Post by mrob on Mar 10, 2023 23:58:52 GMT
I disconnected emotionally from my family at 8. My second wife came along when I was properly working the programme and is free of the dysfunction. At every escalation I freaked out and had therapy.
Her family was very supportive, but that wasn’t the way it felt to me after a while. It felt suffocating. Gifts for the sake of gifts; cards and gifts for every occasion. Birthdays and Christmases, omg. Genuine sadness she was on the other side of the world, trying to support her. Alien, suffocating, and really bloody scary for me. I got sicker from my own responses, mainly internalised (well, until it wasn’t!) because I knew it was my stuff. I’d go to therapy and nobody had any answers. I stopped working the programme.
I’ll never really get that feeling of being enveloped and it being right and comfortable. It took me 9 years to be able to sit comfortably at her cousin’s place. Then i destroyed it all. That’s how it feels. Entirely alien.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2023 1:22:04 GMT
Another key point that I see... You want desperately for someone to "be in it" with you and I get that. But you're trying to get blood from a turnip when you are trying to get a mutually supportive relationship from people who have demonstrated a clear inability to achieve that due to their own mental health issues. Trying to get blood from a turnip is futile. You have to give up on the turnip at some point. My sister is like this. The others have given me more than my family has, so I think that still feels like "something" I honestly don't know what the experience is of someone giving more than crumbs or just what they can given their circumstances. Like I have a mom friend who is single (truly single, no ex) - and she has offered me more than most people and when she does she comments on my inability to receive. My daughter has also commented on this - she notices how my sister takes and takes from my BIL - how aunt "x" is "selfish" and we talked a little about their dynamics. And she said that I would never be with someone like my BIL who does everything -- it was shocking to notice this because I was always a little jealous of what my sister has, and it's like I would have no ability to have any of that since I have such a hard time with receiving - never mind someone "doing everything" for you. That last part is pretty unhealthy. My sister acts like she's completely disabled and my BIL has done EVERYTHING for years, though now there is more bitterness and resentment on his part. I just can't imagine what it would be like to be comfortable having anyone do that much. I used to let my mother help me a lot. But she didn't guilt me, never asked for anything in return, seemed to do it selflessly and that seemed okay. But never really anyone else... I get it. A healthy relationship has balance, and takes into account the needs and capabilities of both partners. Receiving is part of it, and it's an important relationship skill to learn. There can be a lot in the way of being able to receive, and it's worthwhile to uncover those things and work through them on your way to emotional availability. So much stuff to get through, isn't it? But it's all come in time for me, it has a way of blossoming and growing if you are working at it. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 11, 2023 14:43:02 GMT
Wow, another big epiphany just now - I was thinking of my one friend who is really doing her thing right now with being highly neurotic and yet thinks she's fine. And I was thinking about it and said to myself, 'But these are all good people," just that they're "a little messed up"--
And then it hit me - that's exactly my family. At the core, they are good people. I believe they truly mean well. They are just not willing to do their work, change, look at themselves, or heal.
And so THAT IS WHY that is the trigger. I must have younger parts that imagine that if my family had done those things life would be different for me -- maybe I'd feel less lonely, suffered less in relationships -- maybe even had my mom (which is hard to explain).
I also just flashed back to the friend that things ended with a year ago in December and how I got triggered by her inability to have a boundary with her abusive ex who was using and she was putting her children in his care when her lawyer told her not to and her lawyer's receptionist had just seen him an hour earlier and said he was messed up. I was later told that I was "intense" around that -- totally triggered b/c she just completely checked out. Which is what my mom would do. Act like nothing was wrong (and a little bit imply that it was me).
So that position of being me and seeing the elephant in the room (always) and often not calling it out but somehow I think the person knows I know (though I would sometimes call it out) is pretty much is the signature dynamic in all my relationships. It's how things finally ended with my daughter's father.
(It's even hard for me to stay focused and write this all without "checking out") - so that's also my thing (and maybe some shadow stuff)?
But anyway, I don't know what that makes me? A parentified child. Something. But that dynamic is pretty much in everything... it's everywhere.
That's why it's so hard for me to receive or be in a different role. I rarely am. But I suppose if I were willing to attract a different type of person - which again, brings up that gutted feeling - I might be able to at this point.
Even right now, I'm in a gridlock with a friend - the one who can't seem to get that I don't do phone calls whenever she needs me to. Since she has become a "client" which I told her clearly I will just have client boundaries with her - I schedule stuff. She left me another of those "Why can't we just get on the phone" messages yesterday -- like she's so irritated and so exasperated. And I offered her a time on Monday. I have an insanely busy weekend and I refuse to multi-task (like she does) and I will have time to focus on her Monday but she hasn't said anything and also still hasn't paid me for work we did - I had to ask her for it and she still hasn't.
But regardless of all that, my thought that I sit here with is this angry "I don't have time to talk on the phone like YOU DO because I'm sitting her DOING MY WORK and healing and changing my life." Of course I would never say that to her. But it's that deep down resentment. Like when she'd ask me to go out and do something fun in the midst of crises. Like, hey, how about if we resolve the crises THEN we can do something fun -- and this is like that parentified child feeling -- like is there another adult anywhere in the room? Oh, it's just me? Great.
And that's so lonely.
Yet, when I do get around "real" adults - people who act like them, I feel strange. Also alone, in a different way. I lose big parts of myself and almost feel like I have to be professional or something.
Wow ya'll - this is huge for me. Not sure what all of it means, but I'm so grateful for this space and all of you holding space and encouraging me and providing the feedback you have and reading all my meandering posts -- it's such a huge gift and I can credit it all to you guys helping me to gain this awareness, which I know will help me transform things. Just not sure how yet.
Thank you thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2023 14:59:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2023 15:02:41 GMT
And remember, we don't choose our family, but the biggest most amazing wonderful fantastic liberating nurturing thing is
We get to choose our friends.
The other biggest most amazing wonderful fantastic liberating nurturing thing is that when we consciously choose friends, they choose us too, and that's a beautiful feeling, being chosen by a friend.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2023 15:55:51 GMT
My experience was this... I learned how to relate to others in a healthy, mutually rewarding way in concentric circles...
First I opened to humans in general, and learned to navigate acquaintance/professional relationships and work through challenges and reap benefits there. Became more genuine, more warm, also learned healthy boundaries...
From my circle of professional acquaintances I formed an enduring relationship with my best friend. She is my confidante, my sister friend that I cherish, and there is mutual love and respect in spades.
I chose my partner because I knew what it felt like to be cared for, listened to, joined in the moment and in life, because of my best female friend. I literally compared how it felt in my body to sit near him and talk with him, to how it felt to snuggle into a cozy chair at my bff's house and talk with her and it felt the same.
The sexual chemistry with my partner developed after that, and now I have a romantic partner best friend, and a female sister best friend, and a wide circle of supportive, rewarding acquaintance friends.
My family is very wounded and I have limited contact wjth them, some more than others and only warm. If it is not warm I don't engage, I have let go.
I feel very content, a deep sense of belonging. If anything were to happen to my two best friends I trust the universe and myself to continue in this way. I know how to find my people now.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2023 16:36:07 GMT
And incidentally, I spent years solo, without *real friendships that I valued, and I was ok with that as a dismissive, I went to other things like nature. I have tended to cut relationships that feel gross fairly quickly, that's the MO of someone who self regulates I guess. My point is that it took me a long time to find my people too. Decades really, with 7-8 years of conscious work on my attachment style preceding my current relationship contentment. I've had my BFF about 5 years and my partner for 3. So don't feel alone in this struggle.
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Post by krolle on Mar 11, 2023 19:36:07 GMT
I'm back in this pattern for beating myself up about how I feel about the people in my life. Don't I have my own work to do? I also don't even know which forum I'm posting in anymore -- though I feel more avoidant most days. I'm having issues with feeling alone in all the work I have done -- all the years of therapy, personal development, hard sh*t I've been through and the ways in which people around me still "get away with" denying their stuff (or trying to deny mine) or I don't know, I guess their defense mechanisms is what it comes down to? While I am on a dating site and open to dating, I've been mostly focused on my current relationships - men or women - who are friends and looking at myself in relationship to them and seeing what dynamics were there. But the biggest one across the board is this issue with people being rather dissociative. And then I feel like if we're in conversation about something going on in their life, I either have to kind of enable them or end up being a jerk and saying "Hey, come down from the clouds." OR - I suppose I could just listen? But I don't seem capable of that! I do work on my own triggers when this stuff comes up and with my own "parts" of me, but I can't seem to get a total handle on it - working on it in therapy (which is only 2x a month) slow going.... Here are some examples. Would love any input on a more "secure" way of handling these things - * I show my sister something concerning about what is going on in the world. She said "Yes, I know. But I like to keep it positive." -- So there really is nothing to say to that. I feel dismissed though? So then what is a relationship-friendly or even self-talk friendly thing to do? As far as I can tell she bases her whole life on denying things and I guess as long as she "gets away with it," it works for her? But then people like me, who look at reality, are kind of a downer to her. So she avoids me. * A friend hears me talk about some money concerns - more in passing (not asking for advice) and later tells me about Law of Attraction and that she hates to see me fretting about money, etc. ? I ask her to explain more what she means and basically it's like "Just trust things will be okay." I tell her that I was stressed after doing my budget this past month b/c I had such a deficit and trying to sort that out but also working more on not getting stressed then "trusting it will work out" -- I asked for an example and she said when she was a single mom and living on X a month she just had to "trust that it would be okay" -- and I was like "Was it?" -- but I know it wasn't. She's told me she has enormous amounts of debt and recently that she was close to ruin. But her father died and now she has an inheritance. I know this but she talks about it like Law of Attraction - like the money just came from magic. So do I just stop talking to her about this subject? Do I keep on, letting her know how I see things? I do notice I have a slight agenda about showing her I'm right (i.e., being financially responsible seems the way to go) but honestly if I "leave it alone" it starts to build up - like if it's not this, it'll be some other way she says "Just trust" or "It'll all turn out okay." And then I end up resentful. And I don't want to -- I have mentioned to her before the idea of spiritual bypassing and toxic positivity, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in. The thing is she kind of implicitly asks me for help on things all the time or she's always struggling and I can see that part of her struggles are that she has a really hard time just facing reality and being okay with when things aren't going well or are hard etc-- everything is always "it'll work out" etc -- and the more I don't say anything about my observing this, the more I just distance myself and shut down. * A friend is in crises with her son and wants me to help. I've had to have major boundaries here, which was really hard but actually great practice for me. I finally found a way to help her that can work for me (that is sustainable and not sinking my own ship) and she is having a REALLY hard time with it - so, more boundaries. Finally, she seems to be coming around to taking what I can offer. I do a modality that I've spent 6 years studying and learning and practicing and it's still ongoing work. She admits she is impatient, has ADHD, I know she has tons of unresolved trauma and is still in a lot of really dysfunctional patterns - Anyway, I start helping her. And she leaves me a message last night asking if I think she should go to a conference for the work I do b/c she decided she wants to do it now - i.e., become a practitioner. I know she has zero sense of how much work goes into this sort of thing. I just tell her, maybe focus on your own healing right now - which feels okay to do. But I had major enmeshmenty trigger. But I handled that by just saying - you can do what you want, but know that it's a lot of work and maybe focus on your own healing now. I think at the end of the day, all of this adds up to me feeling lonely. Like I either end up in a position of supporting these friends, or staying quiet while I listen to them talk about pretty dysfunctional patterns that they really seem to have no interest in looking at (well, the last friend does now b/c her son was in such an intense crises -- but even then, she kind of keeps distracting herself rather than facing it). I also think there is some kind of childhood trigger here for me b/c of my early upbringing. Like lets just keep walking around the elephant -- and I had to kind of stay in denial along with everyone in order to get along. My behavior (esp. as an adolescent) said otherwise -- like big "F U" - but that's all I knew how to do back then. And I nearly destroyed myself in the process. The end of my relationship with my daughter's dad was because I asked him to really look at our stuff - our patterns (esp that we inherited) and make a change. And instead he ran off and got someone pregnant. I think I'm just longing to be around people who can kind of live in reality and look at their stuff head on - I can't say I'm perfect at it, and I can't say I always chose that - but I think life at times made it nearly impossible for me NOT to do that. And now it feels really hard for me to be around people who are wanting to stay in la la land. And I'm amazed that literally NONE of them are in therapy? How is that even an option?? If I had a metaphor to sum it up, it would be like I grew up in a family of alcoholics, I ended up with one, and had a lot of friends who were - and then I got sober. And it can feel intolerable to me to be around now -- like, oh, you still want to drink? And you want me to listen to you talk about the problems you have as a result of still drinking? And, not only that, but you want me to "trust it'll all work out" and basically go back to drinking? These are all really good-hearted, empathic, sensitive people (well, my sister can be a PITA) but I'm feeling like I either have to keep speaking up or just end the relationship or figure something out. My current default is "It must just be me. It's my trigger, and I need to get over it."  You're not alone. A lot of what you have said in these posts resonated with me. Whilst I can only speculate your internal causes, I understand mine to some degree. "I also don't even know which forum I'm posting in anymore -- though I feel more avoidant most days." Yup, been there......You're in the right place. Remember, another name for FA is disorganized attachment. One of the central characteristics is confusion and disorientation. Since going down the rabbit hole of awareness I'v realised what a mind f**k FA is. Both to be and to recieve. There's a very shaken sense of stability/ trust in both yourself and others. I also get frustrated with many people in my life who don't take things seriously. And are very "in the clouds". And things like "law of attraction" Tarot, horoscopes etc can be particularly triggering for me. Though, like you I try let them have their comforts and just hide my opinion on it. Do you consider yourself to have a strong work ethic and sense of personal responsibility? Also hows your anxiety? any OCD or OCPD tendancies? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2023 19:39:52 GMT
HI krolle!!! Welcome back! As you were... |
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Post by seeking on Mar 12, 2023 2:15:01 GMT
Do you consider yourself to have a strong work ethic and sense of personal responsibility? Also hows your anxiety? any OCD or OCPD tendancies? Hi - Thanks for chiming in. I still have more comments and people to catch up with here, but wanted to respond. I have a huge strong work ethic, but I also work for myself. Having said that if a new partner came along and was like "Hey, take off for a year and get yourself back together after all you've been through," I'd probably do that in a heartbeat under the right circumstances. And yet I might find myself working though to some degree -- largely because I love what I do and am passionate about it and always learning. I can also be a little bit of a workaholic/hide in my work, not know when to stop. On any given day I'm not anxious, but OCD is more a form of hypervigilance. I went through serious trauma with an abusive ex for years up until 2020 and then had to suddenly move out of my house, lose everything I own, start a practice, and then close it weeks later and pull my kid out of a beloved school community due to the pandemic, and after that my normal driving anxiety because pretty severe and then a year ago I developed occasional intrusive thoughts. So while I wouldn't say I'm *highly* anxious - I do live alone and do everything by my self with little support and have faced crazy obstacles and challenges, so maybe normal anxiety given my circumstances. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 12, 2023 2:20:01 GMT
My experience was this... I learned how to relate to others in a healthy, mutually rewarding way in concentric circles... First I opened to humans in general, and learned to navigate acquaintance/professional relationships and work through challenges and reap benefits there. Became more genuine, more warm, also learned healthy boundaries... From my circle of professional acquaintances I formed an enduring relationship with my best friend. She is my confidante, my sister friend that I cherish, and there is mutual love and respect in spades. I chose my partner because I knew what it felt like to be cared for, listened to, joined in the moment and in life, because of my best female friend. I literally compared how it felt in my body to sit near him and talk with him, to how it felt to snuggle into a cozy chair at my bff's house and talk with her and it felt the same. The sexual chemistry with my partner developed after that, and now I have a romantic partner best friend, and a female sister best friend, and a wide circle of supportive, rewarding acquaintance friends. My family is very wounded and I have limited contact wjth them, some more than others and only warm. If it is not warm I don't engage, I have let go. I feel very content, a deep sense of belonging. If anything were to happen to my two best friends I trust the universe and myself to continue in this way. I know how to find my people now. This is lovely and heart warming. I went into a coffee shop the other day and there were two women sitting at a table really connected and talking and I long for that. I can have that -- but my friends all have their lovely issues, lol. Even a good friend who lives nearby who I really like and isn't toxic tends to not allow me to talk without interrupting and can be a little avoidant and lack emotional nuances, subtleties, sensitivity - etc. I also have a lot of people I can pursue but don't have the time and am not even sure if we'd hit it off. Like someone who I am friends with on FB and we have a lot of the same interests, and she wrote me a couple weeks ago and was like Hey was that you in the grocery store earlier - she's someone I could say, would you want to grab coffee sometime -- there are a few people like that, but I am honestly swamped and have little time to myself, and when I do start to see people, I have people I'm already friends with to catch up with. Actually, I did just invite someone over who is a good safe bet and probably doesn't have all the toxic elements of what I've been talking about so that might be refreshing and a good thing. When you say "I know how to find my people now," do you mean actually how to meet new people or just how to identify them? |
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Post by krolle on Mar 12, 2023 3:15:46 GMT
HI krolle!!! Welcome back! As you were... Welcome recieved. Thankyou. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2023 5:02:29 GMT
My experience was this... I learned how to relate to others in a healthy, mutually rewarding way in concentric circles... First I opened to humans in general, and learned to navigate acquaintance/professional relationships and work through challenges and reap benefits there. Became more genuine, more warm, also learned healthy boundaries... From my circle of professional acquaintances I formed an enduring relationship with my best friend. She is my confidante, my sister friend that I cherish, and there is mutual love and respect in spades. I chose my partner because I knew what it felt like to be cared for, listened to, joined in the moment and in life, because of my best female friend. I literally compared how it felt in my body to sit near him and talk with him, to how it felt to snuggle into a cozy chair at my bff's house and talk with her and it felt the same. The sexual chemistry with my partner developed after that, and now I have a romantic partner best friend, and a female sister best friend, and a wide circle of supportive, rewarding acquaintance friends. My family is very wounded and I have limited contact wjth them, some more than others and only warm. If it is not warm I don't engage, I have let go. I feel very content, a deep sense of belonging. If anything were to happen to my two best friends I trust the universe and myself to continue in this way. I know how to find my people now. This is lovely and heart warming. I went into a coffee shop the other day and there were two women sitting at a table really connected and talking and I long for that. I can have that -- but my friends all have their lovely issues, lol. Even a good friend who lives nearby who I really like and isn't toxic tends to not allow me to talk without interrupting and can be a little avoidant and lack emotional nuances, subtleties, sensitivity - etc. I also have a lot of people I can pursue but don't have the time and am not even sure if we'd hit it off. Like someone who I am friends with on FB and we have a lot of the same interests, and she wrote me a couple weeks ago and was like Hey was that you in the grocery store earlier - she's someone I could say, would you want to grab coffee sometime -- there are a few people like that, but I am honestly swamped and have little time to myself, and when I do start to see people, I have people I'm already friends with to catch up with. Actually, I did just invite someone over who is a good safe bet and probably doesn't have all the toxic elements of what I've been talking about so that might be refreshing and a good thing. When you say "I know how to find my people now," do you mean actually how to meet new people or just how to identify them? You have a larger friend circle that I ever have had, I went from 0 (by my choice) to one with my BFF so I can see where adding another connection to your full basket would be more challenging in terms of time. I have a kind of inertia when it comes to being social. My relationships with my friend is very secure but we are both introverted. I mean, I can be extroverted in a situation that I'm obliged to be at like work or what have you, but I am still evolving in terms of initiating social activities. I flew solo for soooo long.... old habits like that are hard to break but I'm slowly moving that direction. As far as I know how to find my people... I found my best friend and my partner both when I wasn't looking. My BFF was through work, I'd see her once a month or so and over time we just grew a connection. My boyfriend, I was actually trying NOT to meet anyone as I was in public with earbuds in fulky focused on developing a skill set in my favorite hobby and he approached me... So the answer is, I don't feel I will need to look for my people, when I need them they will come. That's what I believe. And I will recognize them by the standard my two best friends have set with me, the authenticity, presence, and feeling "at home". I trust myself in this regard about being able to choose friends well, by relying on my senses. I am more open than I used to be. I feel that I am living pretty authentically and in a space of contentment with relationships so I know what I'm looking for in a general sense... the values, the emotional availability, the depth, the purpose. Of course I hope to not have to find new people, these are my forever family and may we all remain healthy til a ripe old age. 🙏 I believe we have to choose your friends wisely because we all have a finite amount of time, both in daily life and on the planet. The time we spend in dynamics which limit us is the time we cannot get back. Once we have learned what we need to from those situations we can be open to a new life. At some point you will be able to preserve some of your time which is precious, for relationships that are nourishing. You are moving toward that. I really hope this for you because I know what it is like to be lonely while literally surrounded by people. |
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