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Post by krolle on Mar 12, 2023 16:02:49 GMT
Do you consider yourself to have a strong work ethic and sense of personal responsibility? Also hows your anxiety? any OCD or OCPD tendancies? Hi - Thanks for chiming in. I still have more comments and people to catch up with here, but wanted to respond. I have a huge strong work ethic, but I also work for myself. Having said that if a new partner came along and was like "Hey, take off for a year and get yourself back together after all you've been through," I'd probably do that in a heartbeat under the right circumstances. And yet I might find myself working though to some degree -- largely because I love what I do and am passionate about it and always learning. I can also be a little bit of a workaholic/hide in my work, not know when to stop. On any given day I'm not anxious, but OCD is more a form of hypervigilance. I went through serious trauma with an abusive ex for years up until 2020 and then had to suddenly move out of my house, lose everything I own, start a practice, and then close it weeks later and pull my kid out of a beloved school community due to the pandemic, and after that my normal driving anxiety because pretty severe and then a year ago I developed occasional intrusive thoughts. So while I wouldn't say I'm *highly* anxious - I do live alone and do everything by my self with little support and have faced crazy obstacles and challenges, so maybe normal anxiety given my circumstances. The main reason I asked is because quiet a few of the things you said resonated with me, and might be related to why you're feeling frustrated or resentful. But of course im just ģuessing your internal process at this point. I have an EXTREMELY strong work ethic and sense of personal responsibility. Usually too strong, and it leads me to burnout or shame. But Overworking/trying too hard has been a coping mechanism for me. I think it can go a couple ways with FA, either over responsible or just complete addicted wrecks. Its like some of us view life as a desperate intense struggle where it takes every ounce of our willpower to survive and very few people can be trusted to help (i.e accept support). I think for many FA, particular those with traumatic/unsupported backgrounds can use these types of coping mechanism. So when we see people who are off in the clouds or not taking things seriously, it really invalidates our view of life and our struggle. That they have the capacity to take life with such a pinch of salt when we have had to struggle and strive with everything we have can grate on us. Perhaps it's even a kind of subconscious jealousy. A second related thing is that for many FA we are already at our limits of emotional, cognitive and physical energy just trying to regulate our own lives. And our brains can kind of anticipate the moves of some of these "off in the clouds types". And they sense that at some point we're likely going to become embroiled in picking up the pieces when their sh*t hits the fan. The concept of boundaries is relevant at this point. But of course boundaries are sometimes very hard to uphold under certain circumstances. For example when you live with said person. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 12, 2023 21:50:09 GMT
Hi - Thanks for chiming in. I still have more comments and people to catch up with here, but wanted to respond. I have a huge strong work ethic, but I also work for myself. Having said that if a new partner came along and was like "Hey, take off for a year and get yourself back together after all you've been through," I'd probably do that in a heartbeat under the right circumstances. And yet I might find myself working though to some degree -- largely because I love what I do and am passionate about it and always learning. I can also be a little bit of a workaholic/hide in my work, not know when to stop. On any given day I'm not anxious, but OCD is more a form of hypervigilance. I went through serious trauma with an abusive ex for years up until 2020 and then had to suddenly move out of my house, lose everything I own, start a practice, and then close it weeks later and pull my kid out of a beloved school community due to the pandemic, and after that my normal driving anxiety because pretty severe and then a year ago I developed occasional intrusive thoughts. So while I wouldn't say I'm *highly* anxious - I do live alone and do everything by my self with little support and have faced crazy obstacles and challenges, so maybe normal anxiety given my circumstances. The main reason I asked is because quiet a few of the things you said resonated with me, and might be related to why you're feeling frustrated or resentful. But of course im just ģuessing your internal process at this point. I have an EXTREMELY strong work ethic and sense of personal responsibility. Usually too strong, and it leads me to burnout or shame. But Overworking/trying too hard has been a coping mechanism for me. I think it can go a couple ways with FA, either over responsible or just complete addicted wrecks. Its like some of us view life as a desperate intense struggle where it takes every ounce of our willpower to survive and very few people can be trusted to help (i.e accept support). I think for many FA, particular those with traumatic/unsupported backgrounds can use these types of coping mechanism. So when we see people who are off in the clouds or not taking things seriously, it really invalidates our view of life and our struggle. That they have the capacity to take life with such a pinch of salt when we have had to struggle and strive with everything we have can grate on us. Perhaps it's even a kind of subconscious jealousy. A second related thing is that for many FA we are already at our limits of emotional, cognitive and physical energy just trying to regulate our own lives. And our brains can kind of anticipate the moves of some of these "off in the clouds types". And they sense that at some point we're likely going to become embroiled in picking up the pieces when their sh*t hits the fan. The concept of boundaries is relevant at this point. But of course boundaries are sometimes very hard to uphold under certain circumstances. For example when you live with said person. I can raise my hand for over-responsible. I've worked out a lot of the more addictive stuff... I was actually just thinking about this last night before I saw your post - how I don't know how to stop being over-responsible. I've definitely gotten better at it. But I'm watching one of my triggery friends sit back b/c she has health issues (I do too) letting people do stuff for her left and right - not helping her sister with their parents stuff after her dad died. Just collecting the money. And while she does struggle with so much anxiety etc - she's basically on disability and does not a whole lot all day. It's very very different from my life. Stopping that and then starting to receive more feels like a sea change. But to be clear, my goal is not to be like this friend. But I have been noticing exactly what you hit on here - that I do get envious and freaked out by the ease I imagine other people have/experience. It's almost shocking to me. I really don't know what to do about it - saying no to more helps. Finding pleasure and things I enjoy more helps. But honestly my life is so far from what I see with certain others - I don't know. |
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 13, 2023 8:32:18 GMT
Hi - Thanks for chiming in. I still have more comments and people to catch up with here, but wanted to respond. I have a huge strong work ethic, but I also work for myself. Having said that if a new partner came along and was like "Hey, take off for a year and get yourself back together after all you've been through," I'd probably do that in a heartbeat under the right circumstances. And yet I might find myself working though to some degree -- largely because I love what I do and am passionate about it and always learning. I can also be a little bit of a workaholic/hide in my work, not know when to stop. On any given day I'm not anxious, but OCD is more a form of hypervigilance. I went through serious trauma with an abusive ex for years up until 2020 and then had to suddenly move out of my house, lose everything I own, start a practice, and then close it weeks later and pull my kid out of a beloved school community due to the pandemic, and after that my normal driving anxiety because pretty severe and then a year ago I developed occasional intrusive thoughts. So while I wouldn't say I'm *highly* anxious - I do live alone and do everything by my self with little support and have faced crazy obstacles and challenges, so maybe normal anxiety given my circumstances. The main reason I asked is because quiet a few of the things you said resonated with me, and might be related to why you're feeling frustrated or resentful. But of course im just ģuessing your internal process at this point. I have an EXTREMELY strong work ethic and sense of personal responsibility. Usually too strong, and it leads me to burnout or shame. But Overworking/trying too hard has been a coping mechanism for me. I think it can go a couple ways with FA, either over responsible or just complete addicted wrecks. Its like some of us view life as a desperate intense struggle where it takes every ounce of our willpower to survive and very few people can be trusted to help (i.e accept support). I think for many FA, particular those with traumatic/unsupported backgrounds can use these types of coping mechanism. So when we see people who are off in the clouds or not taking things seriously, it really invalidates our view of life and our struggle. That they have the capacity to take life with such a pinch of salt when we have had to struggle and strive with everything we have can grate on us. Perhaps it's even a kind of subconscious jealousy. A second related thing is that for many FA we are already at our limits of emotional, cognitive and physical energy just trying to regulate our own lives. And our brains can kind of anticipate the moves of some of these "off in the clouds types". And they sense that at some point we're likely going to become embroiled in picking up the pieces when their sh*t hits the fan. The concept of boundaries is relevant at this point. But of course boundaries are sometimes very hard to uphold under certain circumstances. For example when you live with said person. Thank you for sharing this….this is my mom to a T. Very responsible and very high work ethic and sees so much that bothers her. Everything was so serious growing up and I get the impression that came from her own upbringing. My brothers and I inherited her strong work ethic and personal responsibility perspective….but with a different level of seriousness (because we saw how it impeded her from really enjoying her life). |
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Post by seeking on Mar 14, 2023 12:50:24 GMT
Wow, all my friend stuff "lit up" yesterday - really putting me to the test.
I did have therapy yesterday and realize a few things.
But I notice my system gives me two options -- shut down and avoid or go into a fight response and sort of "address" things with people. I used to do the latter - a lot - and now I'm doing the former.
My therapist just suggested being clean with my intention.
For example, last night - the friend who pushes for phone time even though I told her I'd treat her like a client and she has ways to contact me and I always reply - I got on the phone with her, pushing past my own boundaries and feeling a little resentful and letting her know it can derail and distract me in my day. I overstepped my own boundary b/c I guess I felt like I was having too much of a wall with her (or at least she made it sound that way). So I spent 15 minutes talking and she is genuinely struggling; I feel for her. I felt a little like yeah this isn't just a game of getting me on the phone. (Though my therapist said she might rebel when I act like an adult and try to get me to join her in being a child - something like that - since something clearly seems to be playing out there). So I tell her what I think b/c that's what she was asking. I strongly think her son is in crises b/c of a, b, c. And I shared that with her. It's a lot. It's potentially very overwhelming to address. I said take your time. Do one thing at a time. I'm here, I'll support you, I've been through it (this is a very common scenario for me). So I get her the first bit of info - she takes it and is off and running. I reassure her although this is a lot, at least it's an answer. Things will start to get addressed, and hopefully he will start to feel better. I didn't feel like a hero or like I can "fix" her son, but I thought at least what I went through with my kid might be worth something to save a life. Two hours later, she sends me a long text saying she might be being alarmist, and what if she just did this instead, and wrote me: "I feel like life is so beautiful, why all of this? What a waste of life to not be enjoying it."
OMG
This is the CLASSIC situation. This has happened again and again in various forms.
I think what used to happen is I used to take this personally. I was the bad news. Making sh*t up for the sake of making it up. Adorning the elephant in the room while everyone stood around it to "keep life beautiful" and not inconvenience anyone.
This is my sister rejection. (And, turns out, my friend that I'm talking about here.) They wanted to keep life "positive" while I went through ending an abusive relationship, watching my daughter lose her ability to walk due to mold, lose our house, our belongings, and get dragged through court pretty much all at the same time.
Anyway, while I'm writing this, above friend is actually calling me now. It's 8:30 am here. I'm not "on" for phone calls. This is exactly what happens when I break my own boundary. I'm having quiet time and it's snowing out.
I guess I'm just hitting a wall with this. Last night, I left her a voice memo and told her -- gently -- that what she wrote about life being beautiful is not helpful to her. That it's likely a defense mechanism. That I had those too when I went through what I went through. And it is okay. But that life does just get plain hard sometimes, and that's okay too. No one is immune from suffering. And if she can just stay with reality and what's really happening, she might come out the other end and be better off. I wanted to say your "waste of life" attitude is what made me not be able to stay friends with you - but I didn't. I didn't bring that into it b/c she has enough going on and it's not about that right now. Maybe it will be and when it is, I'll tell her the truth.
I think I used to reject myself for being the one to face stuff when no one else around me would - to shame myself for being "no fun" and like raining on parades and party pooping. But in my work now, I'm trying to allow room for all my parts. I won't join people in their dysfunction. I won't join people in their bid to have me not face reality with them and join them in denial. I will be an adult. I will have compassion, hold space, be around when they do face their stuff and listen.
And the truth is, I am fun. I am wacky. I'm wacky all day long - tell jokes, play with our dog, dance around the house. But it's not at the cost of doing what I have to do. It's alongside that. When my job of feeding and raising my kid and keeping us healthy and protecting us from abuse, and educating her and bills are paid and I can rest, I'm fine with fun. But I'm not willing to wreck my life anymore like I once had b/c I wasn't able to look at my stuff. Or join other people in doing that.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 14, 2023 14:18:06 GMT
"I feel like life is so beautiful, why all of this? What a waste of life to not be enjoying it."
Quick question…was this comment directed at you? Or was it a comment about her son and the difficulties she is having? It is unclear to me and i would have wanted to clarify it first. It sounds like from your response, you took it as a comment about you…but the phrasing to me seems a bit off to be directed at you.
And the truth is, I am fun. I am wacky. I'm wacky all day long - tell jokes, play with our dog, dance around the house. But it's not at the cost of doing what I have to do. It's alongside that. When my job of feeding and raising my kid and keeping us healthy and protecting us from abuse, and educating her and bills are paid and I can rest, I'm fine with fun. But I'm not willing to wreck my life anymore like I once had b/c I wasn't able to look at my stuff. Or join other people in doing that.
I have no doubt you are fun and silly and enjoy life. It truly sounds like this friend’s comment touched a nerve and although it appears she may get where you are coming from and although she sounds like she needs help and you have experience in what she is experiencing…your interactions with her are draining. Personally, it sounds like she needs to address this with a professional. I applaud you for not engaging in an early morning phone call.
I once read the metaphor of time being like a closet. Whose clothes are in there? Yours? Other people’s’? Is your closet neat and organized or crammed full and messy? I do love that metaphor because it gives me a chance to really think about things….this sweater belongs to x, why is it in my closet? 🙂
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Post by seeking on Mar 14, 2023 15:39:03 GMT
"I feel like life is so beautiful, why all of this? What a waste of life to not be enjoying it." Quick question…was this comment directed at you? Or was it a comment about her son and the difficulties she is having? It is unclear to me and i would have wanted to clarify it first. It sounds like from your response, you took it as a comment about you…but the phrasing to me seems a bit off to be directed at you. I was saying in my post, I don't take it personally anymore. I would have in the past. Like how my sister used to passively make comments if I shared something hard about "keeping it positive." But in this case, it seemed to echo what she has said in person - "Can't life just be joyful?" It's more of a statement? A general commentary, is my impression - not directed at anyone or anything in particular. I usually don't say much, but upon seeing it as her going toward a solution and what might help, it seemed like backtracking (it was amid questions about how to do the first step we agreed she should take in order to get some of the crises her son is in resolved). |
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Post by seeking on Mar 14, 2023 15:43:34 GMT
I have no doubt you are fun and silly and enjoy life. It truly sounds like this friend’s comment touched a nerve and although it appears she may get where you are coming from and although she sounds like she needs help and you have experience in what she is experiencing…your interactions with her are draining. Personally, it sounds like she needs to address this with a professional. I applaud you for not engaging in an early morning phone call. I once read the metaphor of time being like a closet. Whose clothes are in there? Yours? Other people’s’? Is your closet neat and organized or crammed full and messy? I do love that metaphor because it gives me a chance to really think about things….this sweater belongs to x, why is it in my closet? 🙂 She's hired me to work with her on modalities I do that are therapy essentially. And my therapist and I were talking yesterday about this idea of now having "dual boundaries" b/c she's operating as friend and client - which is why I NEVER take friends as clients, and which is why my situation gets tricky b/c people see me as a helping/healing professional - but in her case, I made an exception after her begging me and knowing I can offer some help to her son who is the same age as my daughter. I just decided to use client boundaries, but she can't abide those. And I do understand. We'd been close friends years ago. That's a great metaphor about clothes in the closet. My therapist uses one about money. If you have $100 in the bank it's really about capacity - if someone is asking for $1,000 it's not personal. It just doesn't make sense. That's a bit one for me, since I think my co-dependency and people pleasing has led me to being so "helpful" and helpful seems to be some coping strategy for me, but it can leave me bankrupt and in debt so to speak. So I've been much much more careful about giving away my time, wisdom, energy. Esp when doing so can serve as a distraction from my own "stuff." |
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 14, 2023 16:45:23 GMT
I have no doubt you are fun and silly and enjoy life. It truly sounds like this friend’s comment touched a nerve and although it appears she may get where you are coming from and although she sounds like she needs help and you have experience in what she is experiencing…your interactions with her are draining. Personally, it sounds like she needs to address this with a professional. I applaud you for not engaging in an early morning phone call. I once read the metaphor of time being like a closet. Whose clothes are in there? Yours? Other people’s’? Is your closet neat and organized or crammed full and messy? I do love that metaphor because it gives me a chance to really think about things….this sweater belongs to x, why is it in my closet? 🙂 She's hired me to work with her on modalities I do that are therapy essentially. And my therapist and I were talking yesterday about this idea of now having "dual boundaries" b/c she's operating as friend and client - which is why I NEVER take friends as clients, and which is why my situation gets tricky b/c people see me as a helping/healing professional - but in her case, I made an exception after her begging me and knowing I can offer some help to her son who is the same age as my daughter. I just decided to use client boundaries, but she can't abide those. And I do understand. We'd been close friends years ago. That's a great metaphor about clothes in the closet. My therapist uses one about money. If you have $100 in the bank it's really about capacity - if someone is asking for $1,000 it's not personal. It just doesn't make sense. That's a bit one for me, since I think my co-dependency and people pleasing has led me to being so "helpful" and helpful seems to be some coping strategy for me, but it can leave me bankrupt and in debt so to speak. So I've been much much more careful about giving away my time, wisdom, energy. Esp when doing so can serve as a distraction from my own "stuff." That is a tricky one for sure…because the line between your professional guidance and personal time gets blurred to her. Do you have a set schedule with her? Is there some contract? My therapist has rules around reaching out to her and perhaps it would make sense to set up something along these lines with your friend. I don’t necessarily see it as requiring extra boundaries as much as defining when she can engage with you on the issues with her son versus engaging with you simply as a friend….the topic of her son really should stay in your professional guidance time with her. That hopefully would reduce your frustration. Maybe a second phone for clients to reach you versus your personal phone number. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 14, 2023 16:56:18 GMT
That is a tricky one for sure…because the line between your professional guidance and personal time gets blurred to her. Do you have a set schedule with her? Is there some contract? My therapist has rules around reaching out to her and perhaps it would make sense to set up something along these lines with your friend. I don’t necessarily see it as requiring extra boundaries as much as defining when she can engage with you on the issues with her son versus engaging with you simply as a friend….the topic of her son really should stay in your professional guidance time with her. That hopefully would reduce your frustration. Maybe a second phone for clients to reach you versus your personal phone number. Thanks, yes, she knows the rules. I have a messaging app that you can basically leave messages on and I will get back to you either in text or voice memo within 24 hours. I also respond on email. She keeps pushing for phone, which has been the issue. I don't have it in my schedule to do live phone calls whenever someone needs me to. She feels this is very constraining for her and gets exasperated about it. |
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 14, 2023 17:24:23 GMT
That is a tricky one for sure…because the line between your professional guidance and personal time gets blurred to her. Do you have a set schedule with her? Is there some contract? My therapist has rules around reaching out to her and perhaps it would make sense to set up something along these lines with your friend. I don’t necessarily see it as requiring extra boundaries as much as defining when she can engage with you on the issues with her son versus engaging with you simply as a friend….the topic of her son really should stay in your professional guidance time with her. That hopefully would reduce your frustration. Maybe a second phone for clients to reach you versus your personal phone number. Thanks, yes, she knows the rules. I have a messaging app that you can basically leave messages on and I will get back to you either in text or voice memo within 24 hours. I also respond on email. She keeps pushing for phone, which has been the issue. I don't have it in my schedule to do live phone calls whenever someone needs me to. She feels this is very constraining for her and gets exasperated about it. Then maybe she needs a second form of therapy….or a support group…..what I see is exasperation on both sides for different reasons and I think it is fair for you to suggest she pursue another form of assistance. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 14, 2023 20:20:59 GMT
Thanks, yes, she knows the rules. I have a messaging app that you can basically leave messages on and I will get back to you either in text or voice memo within 24 hours. I also respond on email. She keeps pushing for phone, which has been the issue. I don't have it in my schedule to do live phone calls whenever someone needs me to. She feels this is very constraining for her and gets exasperated about it. Then maybe she needs a second form of therapy….or a support group…..what I see is exasperation on both sides for different reasons and I think it is fair for you to suggest she pursue another form of assistance. Possibly. I'm less worried about her and more trying to focus on my own issues . . . since i started this post it's like I just uncovered a giant sea creature and more is emerging. For instance, my willingness to jump in and help when I don't necessarily have to. More on that - |
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Post by seeking on Mar 15, 2023 3:13:14 GMT
The other thing I began realizing was my jumping in to help. I can't remember if I was always this way. I think I used to be able to let people do things for me more.
But just today - I paid a guy to help me with stuff, he said he'd haul away trash. I had 1 million other things to be doing and I started to haul it away.... I stopped, and let him do the rest.
Someone inquired about my services, said she wanted in person not remote, and thank you. I could have said "I understand, best to you." And instead offered her referrals (which took time to look up some names). This is not too bad. But so many things like this throughout the day -
Another person asked me a question that I didn't know the answer to and instead of saying "I don't know," I spent 15 minutes looking for the answer.
I did extra work in a group I'm in when I didn't have to (someone else was looking for the info, and I knew I could find it fast, so I did).
There also seems to be a big control aspect to this.
But anyway, in talking about my trigger around people just wanting it easy - when I haven't had it easy - I'm looking at the ways I just don't let things be easy or less effort, etc. Somehow doing these things and putting in effort feels like one of my ways of coping. I am just so not used to sitting back. Ever.
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Post by krolle on Mar 15, 2023 13:06:35 GMT
I was struggling to understand the root of some of those last few posts.
To summarise, you are questioning why you give so much when you dont have to?
And also that you are frustrated when people are unreasonably optimistic?/ or that they have things/want things the easy way?
Is that roughly correct?
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 15, 2023 14:18:00 GMT
The other thing I began realizing was my jumping in to help. I can't remember if I was always this way. I think I used to be able to let people do things for me more. But just today - I paid a guy to help me with stuff, he said he'd haul away trash. I had 1 million other things to be doing and I started to haul it away.... I stopped, and let him do the rest. Someone inquired about my services, said she wanted in person not remote, and thank you. I could have said "I understand, best to you." And instead offered her referrals (which took time to look up some names). This is not too bad. But so many things like this throughout the day - Another person asked me a question that I didn't know the answer to and instead of saying "I don't know," I spent 15 minutes looking for the answer. I did extra work in a group I'm in when I didn't have to (someone else was looking for the info, and I knew I could find it fast, so I did). There also seems to be a big control aspect to this. But anyway, in talking about my trigger around people just wanting it easy - when I haven't had it easy - I'm looking at the ways I just don't let things be easy or less effort, etc. Somehow doing these things and putting in effort feels like one of my ways of coping. I am just so not used to sitting back. Ever. This sounds like a great breakthrough and place to explore boundaries…not only with your time, but exactly what are you “getting” (or more accurately think you are getting by doing this?). In my case…It still stings and I won’t take up your post with details, but it ties into this notion that my worth had to be “earned” and thus could be taken away if I did not over give. The root of yours may in fact be vastly different but likely ties back somehow to the dynamics within your family. Might also be good to jot each of these down to see if there is a pattern. But great work on getting to some root stuff. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 15, 2023 20:20:31 GMT
Thanks, @tnr -- I think it's all part of overfunctioning, which I've posted about before. I'm not sure if I can trace it back to family - I'm sure though - but seems to be also something about rejection. Like I don't want people to resent me or feel that I'm a burden. Like that guy hauling away trash from stuff he set up for me might mean it's just "too much" for him to work with me.
It's been kind of a new concept to do genuinely what I want to do. I do a lot for my kid and that messes up my inner compass. Like I've tried very hard to provide different opportunities for her that don't work for me, but she doesn't even seem to be benefitting from them any long, so I'm not sure. Just heading into a bit of a limbo with some soul-searching ahead.
Thanks for the support.
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