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Post by alexandra on May 22, 2023 21:53:53 GMT
seeking, thanks for sharing all that. I need to think about it more to give a constructive response. Back to your mid 30s, before kids and single parenting or anything, it sounds like what happened is you got other voices in your head that made you question yourself and overcorrected. Which can definitely happen if you are at a point that you start to worry about your biological clock ticking and if you are "doing it wrong" and what should you change to get more settled... but you had bad guidance at the time since your family are bad guides. And dropping all the noise and voices and opinions of other people that make you distrust yourself is HARD. Dropping that part of the trauma isn't easy at all. But asking me to explain that better, the core of it is that neither AP nor FA trust themselves. AP tend to trust others more than self, FA distrust others as well and whether they go anxious or avoidant in response to something is partially influenced by whether or not they distrust others more (leads to avoidant response) or less (leads to anxious response) than they distrust themselves. So dropping the voices is about connecting with yourself, really identifying and solidifying what you want and need, and opinions of other people telling you how to live your life more like their own, whether you want to or not, be damned. In your case, you emulating your family's approach wasn't right for you. But one of the things that makes it really hard is some of this stuff is deeply ingrained in your subconscious, because your family probably has been telling you to live a certain way and prioritize certain things (like finding a secure finance guy) for your entire life. So then is it really you who wanted that finance guy as your priority, or was that an ideal thrust on you so early that you didn't stop to question and differentiate whether or not it was even your idea or what you wanted versus what someone else projected onto you that you should want? In terms of my earning secure, it wasn't just one thing. It was compounded pain plus my asking the same questions you asked yourself in your mid 30s... if I want to have a family while it's still biologically possible, do I need to change something? My conclusion was also yes, but I did it differently because I had more access to information and a network with people who had what I did actually want to emulate than it sounds like you did at the time you were going through it. So mostly the pain, plus missing out on something I did want (to be a parent and a parent who wouldn't dump generational trauma onto yet another generation if I could help it) were enough motivation for me to be serious about changing. But I've written elsewhere that the changing took years and was already somewhat in progress, it just took a break up and destruction of identity really and being like what am I doing, I'm miserable, to be ready to get to the next step in the healing and change process. That's individual, and again my circumstances were different plus I don't have the additional neurodivergence challenges that make trauma even more difficult to process, so I can share my learnings and philosophies, but it won't be completely apples to apples one size fits all.
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Post by seeking on May 23, 2023 11:24:45 GMT
I think that the longing for support can be a single parent issue, rather than purely an attachment issue. Someone who is not a single parent will not be able to empathize or understand where you're coming from, but other single parents can. Not everything is about attachment insecurity. The practical side of raising kids is a good reason to wish one had a partner. Hell, throughout history partnerships have been formed for exactly that, the raising of children. It's a deep instinctual drive. The notion of romantic love and that being the foundation of marriage is relatively new. For ages it was about survival and survival is still a thing. No need to justify wanting a partner in raising a family. It's more natural than not, from my perspective. Thank you. I am able to separate this. I am still interested in the "hole" part. But, yes, I think until you have a kid --nevermind become single in a high-conflict/traumatic situation with that same child who also has special needs (autism) -- you can't know the sometimes deep desperation, heart-shattering, survival mode mama-bear lunacy that can run through your veins. I would do anything for my kid. Even if that means sacrificing something in a relationship so we can have a better life - so she can have a better life. I know that can sound crazy -- but it's not like I'm out there hitting up sugar daddies or taking anything that comes along. Heck, I'm not even online dating. I'm 100% "sober" from men at the moment. But to say that this piece isn't alive in my interactions to some extent would be lying. It all also doesn't feel in my control to magically make that fact somehow resolve - it just is. Thankfully, we're outside of crises mode. And I feel like I'm unique in and among the other single moms I know who are either both in crises mode AND have their patterns and "baggage" -- and yet still land guys (granted not always healthy ones).... My good friend who seems like she is just looking for fun with a guy and not looking for someone to rescue (although she said "that would be nice") is major avoidant, totally unaware of any issues, etc. Not to compare - but just saying among the people I know, I feel like I'm doing relatively okay. And would no longer consider myself a "hot mess" And, at the same time I am aware of my dad wound - hole, etc. but it has a different shape than it used it. |
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Post by seeking on May 23, 2023 11:40:02 GMT
And dropping all the noise and voices and opinions of other people that make you distrust yourself is HARD. Dropping that part of the trauma isn't easy at all. But asking me to explain that better, the core of it is that neither AP nor FA trust themselves. AP tend to trust others more than self, FA distrust others as well and whether they go anxious or avoidant in response to something is partially influenced by whether or not they distrust others more (leads to avoidant response) or less (leads to anxious response) than they distrust themselves. Thanks so much for this Alexandra. Can't tell you how much I appreciate the input. This post is really taking things to another level for me, and I have you and others to thank for that. This is so interesting. Still my confusion about FA/AP (and, yes, just knowing insecure is enough) but I definitely seemed to trust others more than myself. Mostly b/c they were my guides to "normy" world (and I haven't always identified as neurodivergent). But I knew I just didn't know. I couldn't know. And so I relied on others to show me the way. Friends once said, "Get engaged." I walked up to the man at the time who I was with and said "We need to get engaged." And we did. He was abusive. They didn't know. When I met the guy in Rome in my 30s. I went into deer-in-headlights mode. I begged friends to "tell me what to do," -- they couldn't. The whole thing was all so overwhelming for years (still is clearly) that I used to wish I could have an arranged marriage, to the point I was obsessed with it. Admittedly, I dated a lot of south Asian guys for this reason. They were Americanized for the most part, but I secretly hoped they'd just marry me and came with the inherent understanding that you can marry for reasons other than love. I know that's crazy. But I knew I was capable of doing the "roles" thing and I knew they knew that well from their upbringing. (And of the ones who weren't players or already married and lying, they did). I just wanted off the market, in a relationship and to go on with my life -- Last night, I was thinking I'm not your average person and I got worried.... I know women like me - one recently ended up with another women. I don't know all that went into it (she was married to a man and has kids), but I couldn't picture her with another man -- she is strong and willful and feisty and different. And I worry that I'm just fishing in the wrong pond. Not that I ever see myself ending up with a woman. But I just have a hunch that it will be "different." In the meantime, I am in a deep dive with the wounding stuff. There is definitely something big big big there and it hurts to see it but is also exciting in a way b/c I know I'm into the core now.... I have to wonder about my past history of promiscuity. More on that.... But I wonder as far as earned secure (a concept I never really knew was there or within any reach in this lifetime until not long ago), is it ongoing work to maintain? Anyway, what you said about dropping the voices and listening to myself is something a friend has encouraged me to do for years. I never got why he would always say that to me over and over... and it feels like the hardest ask in the world. Esp now with a kid. I do feel like I'm living in some margin right now between the life that I tried to have based on family script that didn't work out and the life that didn't work out b/c I left it to live the script. I'm living neither. In all fairness, though, I worked hard to have the stability I do not - even if it's in limbo - for my daughter. And I guess for me to do this work - to be man-sober and focus on healing and stop moving long enough to contact myself. |
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Post by seeking on May 23, 2023 12:17:07 GMT
So this might point to the whole in a way. I'm not sure how to write about it, but long story short, over the weekend, someone told me to try something (somatic). When I did, I flashed to a memory. I was with a guy from about 25-32. He was the "love of my life" for years. I was the most vulnerable with him, most in love, most wrapped up. We lived together. I don't even know much about him as far as his attachment style. He cheated. He looked at porn. He was critical. Maybe DA? I don't know. But I was also pretty FA in the relationship. I threatened to leave, I left, I did all the protest behaviors to get him to do something different.
Anyway, somatically I had this sense of fight in my body, specifically my legs. I flashed to a memory of me kicking a hole in a trunk of his that he was using as a coffee table (granted it was thick cardboard). I screamed, "Tell me you love me! Say it" There's a psycho moment for you but that was me in my 20s, I guess.
He was the most defining relationship I had and he was most like my father. I was frustrated because of the constant withholding. I guess for him it was a power thing? But he couldn't just come out and say "I love you." It was like I had to earn it. And it was beyond infuriating. And I was enraged.
So I brought that up in therapy yesterday, randomly. I do IFS work so it's a pretty structured. I went to go to the feeling of that in my body -- it brought up an aching longing that felt hard to be with and I had a ton of protector parts telling me "Don't dredge this up now, it's pointless, etc." And another one telling me, "Don't 'activate' this feeling. Don't destabilize yourself. It will drown you. Your addictions will start again."
My therapist is skillful. He allowed this to just be what it is and not push to get to the feelings. The resistance is there for a reason and I had to get to know these parts and let them see me and trust me.
But I am guessing and mostly knowing *this is it* - this is the "hole" which is not actually a hole, more a buried longing that was never met. I started to observe it yesterday and take notes on it. I listened to Crappy Childhood Fairy. I'm in a writing class and someone said something pretty compelling ("Trauma arises with distorted mirroring.") I thought of the girl who kicked her foot through a trunk. "Tell me you love me!" I thought of some of the men I dated-- that familiar sense of something being withheld for me and my conclusion that I had to be "better"--look better, be smarter, be cooler, earn it.
I think the definition of addiction -- well at least what it *IS* is a behavior that's a result of not being able to find safety. And it's *what we do* to create a sense of soothing, regulation or disconnecting ourself from some pain - which in itself becomes a form of finding safety (that safety is generally not known to that system). And then we decide we need that thing outside ourselves to cope/survive. I had many -- eating disorders, cigarettes, wine, and especially men---my power to attract them, the seduction, the "getting them to then love me."
And while I have lived with a chronic feeling of emptiness (very low-level) most of my life, which I think is akin to the "hole" that we talk about -- I mostly lived out these addictive patterns - "love addiction" is probably the best name for it.
Probably the last time I engaged in it was 6-7 years ago with a guy at my daughter's school (who I later found out was the source of a lot of women's interest). I was obsessed with him, would think about him constantly, fantasize about him, run into him and feel a ton of drama arise. It was textbook stuff - if I were with him, I imagined feeling *this way* and it was also after the ending of my relationship with my daughter's dad - so it was a catchall for sooo much ... it never came to be. And one little incident helped me see that it was a lot like kicking my foot through that trunk -- I had run into him in the grocery store. He saw me and there was a clear path for him to just pop over to the door (it was an old place inside of what was like a house), I was trying to open the door while pushing my cart through and he simply could have HELD THE FREAKING DOOR. He knew me. He passed me every day in the hallway at our kid's school. We saw each other at events. He'd make eye contact. But instead, he watched me struggle, and *did nothing* - and psycho as it was, I went home and played out a scenario where I smashed everything in my house. I felt that familiar rage "TELL ME YOU LOVE ME" -- Open the door for me!
After that, I was done with that guy. I lost interest. I knew it was the end of me chasing men who were "unavailable" (or whatever you'd call that). I was just done (of course the next guy was a total love addict - with me) but I've been "sober" from that ever since, which to me is a pretty big deal.
And so that's the piece I'm working with. I got away from the behavior and the longing for those kind of men. But I don't know that I've quite healed that wound.
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Post by seeking on May 23, 2023 12:56:37 GMT
Just adding this here, since there's more (since yesterday).
But I got pretty worried last night that I may be borderline.
I really don't think it's anything to "worry" about since I'm 51 and clearly I'm surviving. It's not like it would be anything new. And it certainly won't get worse with all the awareness I have.
But I've been reading everything I can get my hands on about adult separation anxiety, which is what I have (it's like I'm tracking it in a parallel line around my driving anxiety rather than my dating/attachment/relationship stuff). The two, of course, are now coming together.
I do think it has a lot to do with trauma and neurodivergence. My dad told me he had major sep anxiety with his mom til he was an adult. My daughter (also on the spectrum like I believe my dad is) has had it so severely during her life - better nowadays. When I found a name for it, it was like a huge eye-opening scary mind-bendy thing. A lot of the memoirs I'm reading are from adults who ended up with forms of agoraphobia from it (which is what I have around driving on highways or feeling "trapped" and like there's no escape at a red light sometimes).
And where it converges is that I see how I seek constant "presence" - the steadiness of it. I hate to call that "addiction" even though it fits my definition - but this is what I'm working with right now -- this need to constantly be connected into something -- seen and witnessed. I think it's a genuine need (or want, I guess) and maybe it's a manifestation of this concept of "separation anxiety" because I see it in my dad too. But there's times when it's unhealthy - like with this friend who I can see being in a drama triangle with -- me rescuing her (even if she didn't totally invite that, but her energy seems to). And then being able to feel a constant connection to something. We voice memo each other on an app every day. And I got so triggered this last time by her victim-hood that I shut down. And now I don't have the constant connection. So I see it here (sort of, this is also super useful for me to parse out and is helping me heal) -- or Instagram posts where I can feel seen b/c I get likes. Or in some of my steady clients who I see week after week. I see when it gets cut off - like an avoidant friend who I still call and still end up getting "dinged" by every time and then feel that familiar hurt from a sense of disconnection.
I'm not polished on all of what this is yet and how to work with it. But I sense that it's definitely a huge piece in all this.
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Post by alexandra on May 23, 2023 16:19:50 GMT
I think you've answered the question about what the "hole" is: it's the distrust of self.
More later when I have time, but is the need versus want framework I've been trying to use making sense, or is that confusingly abstract?
Earning secure needs a lot of maintenance to get to, and some more maintenance the first year or two because you need to rediscover yourself being a new person in some ways, but once you're solid in your identity from there then it gets very natural and you don't need to actively think too hard about it anymore.
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Post by mrob on May 23, 2023 21:48:46 GMT
Keep going with this, seeking. You’re on the right track. My experience with addiction is that it’s like a game of whack a mole. Hammer one down, another pops up and I have to learn the same lesson another way. For me, addiction isn’t only the behaviour, but the powerlessness to stop acting out, even when I know it’s detrimental, hence 12 step programmes having 12 steps. The problem is only mentioned once, the rest is about finding that necessary power to straighten our lives out so whatever behaviour it is isn’t needed anymore. What happened to me was a total breakdown, as alexandra talked about. Nothing worked anymore. I’d been acting in self defeating ways forever and was totally unable to stop, and I knew it. I had to go for another 2 years before I was ready. This is tough. Most people don’t recover. They return to their behaviour of (no) choice and go round and round in circles until they die, depending on the substance/behaviour. Keep going with the hard stuff. |
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Post by seeking on May 23, 2023 22:39:05 GMT
Keep going with this, seeking . You’re on the right track. My experience with addiction is that it’s like a game of whack a mole. Hammer one down, another pops up and I have to learn the same lesson another way. For me, addiction isn’t only the behaviour, but the powerlessness to stop acting out, even when I know it’s detrimental, hence 12 step programmes having 12 steps. The problem is only mentioned once, the rest is about finding that necessary power to straighten our lives out so whatever behaviour it is isn’t needed anymore. What happened to me was a total breakdown, as alexandra talked about. Nothing worked anymore. I’d been acting in self defeating ways forever and was totally unable to stop, and I knew it. I had to go for another 2 years before I was ready. This is tough. Most people don’t recover. They return to their behaviour of (no) choice and go round and round in circles until they die, depending on the substance/behaviour. Keep going with the hard stuff. I have a different approach to addiction that I learned in the somatic world. And, btw, I'll just mention that I told my functional med practitioner today that I have a dysfunctional relationship to gluten-free almond-flower cookies.  She gets it because she's trauma-informed. But the cookies mess me up. I get a rash, or gut issues. Yet, I still eat them. I might be "sober" with men, but I still eat things that I know mess me up. If I become totally sober, it can feel sort of overwhelming. So I have to kind of cut down the "noise" (emotions, sensations, etc) in some way. But if I change my *relationship* to that thing - to that "noise," say - then the behavior changes. I can't will myself or abstain with everything I have and white knuckle it. I've got to change my relationship to it - have compassion for it, try to understand it, give it what it needs -- that's when the behavior shifts. And I'm not there right now. I think I'm where you guys are with the breaking point. That happened with my ex. It was absolute rock bottom and then some. Taking my ad down has been huge for me. That was another form of it - checking constantly. Now it's friendships - like a dysfunctional one I'm in that has kept me distracted and "soothed" or it's the cookies. Or it's staying too busy. But I feel myself slowly more able to have enough capacity to stay with discomfort and move through it without reflexively reaching for what can take me away from it (addiction).... I know all of it is about safety on some level. But this is the farthest I've ever come. I don't know if I could put it to the test in an actual relationship though. I don't see that going well. "Most people don't recover." Wow. Yes, this says it all. And I can see why. And I think I also feel very triggered and frustrated with that --- and alone in coming this far and doing this work and being so aware when others kick around and don't want to be bothered. I try to have more patience but right now I'm just really into books and resting (basically books and naps when I can fit it in). People are too annoying, lol. |
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Post by seeking on May 23, 2023 22:43:58 GMT
I think you've answered the question about what the "hole" is: it's the distrust of self. I wasn't expecting that. Would love to hear more. I would think it's more the "empty" feeling or the separation anxiety or the hunger/longing for connection and to be seen? But maybe that's a result of distrust of self somehow and that's more the root? |
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Post by seeking on May 23, 2023 22:46:35 GMT
More later when I have time, but is the need versus want framework I've been trying to use making sense, or is that confusingly abstract? I think it's pretty straightforward to say anything that doesn't immediately pertain to your survival is a want versus a need, but I haven't really thought of it that way. I know I'm not an orphan or a child for that matter, but I do know that children can't survive without human contact (i.e., not on food, water, warmth alone). So I feel like it's a gray area. And I feel like it sort of diminishes wants to something like an accessory ... I've generally used this as a guide: www.cnvc.org/training/resource/needs-inventory |
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Post by mrob on May 23, 2023 23:51:35 GMT
Most people don't recover." Wow. Yes, this says it all. And I can see why. And I think I also feel very triggered and frustrated with that --- and alone in coming this far and doing this work and being so aware when others kick around and don't want to be bothered. I try to have more patience but right now I'm just really into books and resting (basically books and naps when I can fit it in). People are too annoying, lol. It is very sad to see people given something that will save their lives, and make everyone’s lives around them better and see them pick up and die. It might look like they have the luxury of ignorance, but not really. When someone sees the solution and turns their back on it, they’re never the same. They either treat their illness with their substance or a programme. There but for the Grace of whatever God is go I. I have to move away from them to save my own life. |
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Post by mrob on May 23, 2023 23:56:01 GMT
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Post by tnr9 on May 24, 2023 1:38:30 GMT
I think it is doable as long as it is not expected from 1 person…my cat fulfills some of my needs, my hobby provides for some, my singles community provides for some, my friends provide for some, my family provides for some, my work provides for some….🙂 |
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Post by seeking on May 24, 2023 2:27:19 GMT
I think it is doable as long as it is not expected from 1 person…my cat fulfills some of my needs, my hobby provides for some, my singles community provides for some, my friends provide for some, my family provides for some, my work provides for some….🙂 Agree. I'm surprised that I feel a lot of those are attainable or nearby at times.... btw. what is a singles community? I was thinking about how my mom complains that my dad gets up every morning and goes out the door to a cafe and hangs out with other men. I don't know if I'd love that - I love getting up and writing and reflecting etc. But I would love some kind of regular meeting group for the purpose of being seen and witnessed. I've had variations of that with moms but the one outside my house each week doesn't sit well with me. Too bad! I do have 2x a month meetings in person with a group (more about a cause) and an online grief group 2x a month, but I'd love something in person. |
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Post by tnr9 on May 24, 2023 2:43:50 GMT
I think it is doable as long as it is not expected from 1 person…my cat fulfills some of my needs, my hobby provides for some, my singles community provides for some, my friends provide for some, my family provides for some, my work provides for some….🙂 Agree. I'm surprised that I feel a lot of those are attainable or nearby at times.... btw. what is a singles community? I was thinking about how my mom complains that my dad gets up every morning and goes out the door to a cafe and hangs out with other men. I don't know if I'd love that - I love getting up and writing and reflecting etc. But I would love some kind of regular meeting group for the purpose of being seen and witnessed. I've had variations of that with moms but the one outside my house each week doesn't sit well with me. Too bad! I do have 2x a month meetings in person with a group (more about a cause) and an online grief group 2x a month, but I'd love something in person. My church has a singles community. It is where I met B. We actually have a lot of single parents who attend….one of my really good friends met her husband through the community and I know of one friend whose boyfriend plans to propose…he showed me a photo of the ring. They met during our annual beach retreat, |
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