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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2023 16:07:29 GMT
Your sister doesn't sound DA in this dynamic at all, does she have that diagnosis from a clinician? Has she claimed to be DA? It doesn't really even matter, all that matters is your side of the dynamic. It sounds like you have an enmeshed family, and withdrawing from enmeshment is not dysfunctional, if you're doing it with awareness and to take care of yourself.setrinf boundaries around your work time and space isn't withdrawing. It's not avoidant. It's just setting boundaries. Anxious, avoidant, secure, it's just a boundary that you put in place to preserve your energy and focus for your paid work.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2023 16:11:30 GMT
If your sister isbDA in her marriage that's one thing and doesn't mean she's DA in the family dynamic. And she may not connect to anxiety, may be out of touch with it because of all the doing doing doing doing. She could be unaware of what drives her, mistaking anxiety and enmeshment with just doing the right thing for family. She sounds unaware is all. I had no idea how much anxiety I carried for some time because I was living on autopilot. That's functional freeze I believe. But again, all that really matters is your awareness and what you are choosing for yourself here.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2023 16:22:06 GMT
In order to qualify for the DA label, someone has got to be dismissive. I can't see your sister being dismissive of anything here.
Dismissive has a particular definition, and it's important. It means that one feels that someone, something, is unworthy of consideration. In a relationship, the other person is always worthy of consideration. Things related to their wellbeing are worthy of consideration. A DA will not tune in to that because of their own one person psychology. Here your sister is overly considering your mother who is an adult responsible for taking care of herself, your father, and bringing you into the mix with copious communication and she thinks she is just doing what is required. No boundaries.
If you have come to a place of awareness and recognition and boundaries, that's not n2cessariky avoidance... avoidance is largely unconscious, automatic, unaware. Just like an anxious person will view themselves as emotionally available and capable of healthy relating while actually acting out with rumination, preoccupation. They think it's love.
An avoidant will be acting out avoidance thinking it's the right, best thing to do, without recognizing its unhealthy.
You are aware of the unhealthy dynamics and taking a step back. That brings all kinds of emotions that aren't necessarily avoidant.
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2023 16:34:58 GMT
Also, I think low drama relating is appealing not to just avoidants, but to securely attached people as well. The difference is in how low drama is achieved. An insecure approach is dismissal, and all kind of insecure strategies. A secure approach is healthy boundaries, and being able to see the forest for the trees to not get sucked into drama in the first place. Ah! This is key then. In the past, I used to fly to drama like a moth to light. I'd match the sympathetic energy of the situation. Now I see drama and (as in the examples above), I'm done. Maybe I don't quite have the boundary skill set of someone secure and I'm doing more the insecure strategies (again, I outlined different scenarios here just now) but that is what's different and what I couldn't quite name -- the steering away from drama, which is new to me and also possibly by the fact that I have zero capacity for anything else right now.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2023 17:35:59 GMT
Also, I think low drama relating is appealing not to just avoidants, but to securely attached people as well. The difference is in how low drama is achieved. An insecure approach is dismissal, and all kind of insecure strategies. A secure approach is healthy boundaries, and being able to see the forest for the trees to not get sucked into drama in the first place. Ah! This is key then. In the past, I used to fly to drama like a moth to light. I'd match the sympathetic energy of the situation. Now I see drama and (as in the examples above), I'm done. Maybe I don't quite have the boundary skill set of someone secure and I'm doing more the insecure strategies (again, I outlined different scenarios here just now) but that is what's different and what I couldn't quite name -- the steering away from drama, which is new to me and also possibly by the fact that I have zero capacity for anything else right now. Burnout is real,and it can be an impetus for developing more healthy boundaries and dynamics. As with all things, mastery isn't instantaneous. It takes experimentation, and a process of questioning and adjusting. The goal is to move out of the place of reactivity and into the place of conscious choice. I think you are making progress. It's not like we are happy and everything is great and we decide now we want to become healthier. The pain itself is part of the process, and wakes us up to a need for change. The change itself takes time, Rome wasn't built in a day and neither were all our survival mechanisms.
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2023 19:33:23 GMT
Also, I think low drama relating is appealing not to just avoidants, but to securely attached people as well. The difference is in how low drama is achieved. An insecure approach is dismissal, and all kind of insecure strategies. A secure approach is healthy boundaries, and being able to see the forest for the trees to not get sucked into drama in the first place. A dismissive has walls, but not good boundaries and that leads to dynamics where we get overrun, and have to defend ourselves by withdrawing while remaining in place, until we leave and are done. The instances where you simply choose not to re-engage with people from the past just seem like good boundaries to me, especially on social media. I don't take social media as a serious approach to human interaction, it's more of a cocktail party for passing time and entertainment, its as shallow as it gets. No form of electronic reunion is significant to me and I don't do it. The internet and tech based communication facilitates meaningless connection and I just don't bother with people who return to my life in this way, and I don't consider it shutting down, just saying no to something I truly have no interest in. Shutting down happens in response to a trigger. A blast from the past coming round in the form of pixels doesn't trigger me at all. The other scenarios are more laden with emotion and could be explored more, although withdrawing from toxic dynamics seems healthy to me. Not getting into them in the first place is more where I am at these days. I am much less involved than you are socially, though. I've never been one for friend groups or multiple friends, I tend to have my bestie and an intimate partner or not... but I get a lot of connection at work. Those relationships are pretty compartmentalized though. So maybe that's all more to do with introversion vs extraversion, I'm not sure. My avoidant bestie has LOTs of friends and she's always going out and doing this or that. There are many factors at play in our personalities and it gets too complicated for me to analyze, that's when I shut down 😄. I get to a point of not even caring about the how and why. Okay. This helps and make sense. The relationships with toxic dynamics -- 1. was from over a year ago so lots of progress and if it were now, I would not have gotten involved in that (although I really didn't see it until the very end when this person acted very toxic). 2. my sister/parents - those are just. . . there. 3. the friend I let go of was also a year ago and was a typical situation for me - "this fills the void but it's definitely unhealthy" or "I get to be rescuer/victim, etc" but then I just totally stopped being interested in that, couldn't tolerate, kept getting triggered, and I thought - for what? I'd rather be friends with the void! So that's where I am now. And I don't have a huge void anymore. I have a fulfilling life - I'm passionate about my work, the therapy I do with my daughter is paying off and she's made huge strides, I have friends (for the most part) and community - church and neighbors, etc. But I'm overwhelmed, burned out, and the thing that has got to go is the toxic interactions. So I'm doing my best to eliminate the ones I can - and stuck on the ones like sister and parents which I'm working on in therapy. But, yes, I'm very careful now about where I spend my energy and with whom. I also think I'm out of my "window" (of tolerance) socially - hence part of the burnout. Before I had a kid, I had a boyfriend, would move somewhere, had a couple friends, but mostly I worked, was a lone, did my thing. That was my comfort level. Because I have a kid and homeschool and need her to get involved in activities and so on - there's a million people attached to that stuff. I enjoy some of the interactions, esp if it's someone coming to the park near our house who texts me and says "Hey, we're around if you want to say hi." And if we're free, we do and it's pleasant. But someone just invited us to a Shakespeare performance over an hour away and I shut down. She could prob tell and she said, "So hey suggest something else." And I still haven't - because that feels all like a lot to me. But, yeah, I get the not caring about how and why. I'm getting there myself. I just like to learn so I have an inner understanding of motivation and kind of a milestone - like OH, hey, I'm making some progress. Oh, no wait, that's actually just a different survival strategy - try over here.
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2023 19:34:54 GMT
Ah! This is key then. In the past, I used to fly to drama like a moth to light. I'd match the sympathetic energy of the situation. Now I see drama and (as in the examples above), I'm done. Maybe I don't quite have the boundary skill set of someone secure and I'm doing more the insecure strategies (again, I outlined different scenarios here just now) but that is what's different and what I couldn't quite name -- the steering away from drama, which is new to me and also possibly by the fact that I have zero capacity for anything else right now. Burnout is real,and it can be an impetus for developing more healthy boundaries and dynamics. As with all things, mastery isn't instantaneous. It takes experimentation, and a process of questioning and adjusting. The goal is to move out of the place of reactivity and into the place of conscious choice. I think you are making progress. It's not like we are happy and everything is great and we decide now we want to become healthier. The pain itself is part of the process, and wakes us up to a need for change. The change itself takes time, Rome wasn't built in a day and neither were all our survival mechanisms. Yep! That's where I am. Part of this is a reaction/pain driving some of the recent boundaries and walls. And burnout! Thanks for pointing this out.
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2023 21:44:27 GMT
In order to qualify for the DA label, someone has got to be dismissive. I can't see your sister being dismissive of anything here. Dismissive has a particular definition, and it's important. It means that one feels that someone, something, is unworthy of consideration. In a relationship, the other person is always worthy of consideration. Things related to their wellbeing are worthy of consideration. A DA will not tune in to that because of their own one person psychology. Here your sister is overly considering your mother who is an adult responsible for taking care of herself, your father, and bringing you into the mix with copious communication and she thinks she is just doing what is required. No boundaries. If you have come to a place of awareness and recognition and boundaries, that's not n2cessariky avoidance... avoidance is largely unconscious, automatic, unaware. Just like an anxious person will view themselves as emotionally available and capable of healthy relating while actually acting out with rumination, preoccupation. They think it's love. An avoidant will be acting out avoidance thinking it's the right, best thing to do, without recognizing its unhealthy. You are aware of the unhealthy dynamics and taking a step back. That brings all kinds of emotions that aren't necessarily avoidant. Perhaps. I think she is in her marriage. She minimizes her husband's support, value, contribution. Acts like she'd be fine on her own. She's emotionally and verbally abusive, cuts him down. My sister is this way with our mother and her kids, but not really with anyone else. What you wrote to describe DA is very much how I feel around her - like I'm not considered. Even down to she had us over and told no one what time to come. I was already on the road when she said "come at 2." She clearly didn't want us there (which could maybe go back to boundary issues) but I feel like that all the time, like she doesn't take me into consideration - just does what works for her and people can come or not. I see a lot of her "consideration" going toward things that ultimately make her anxious (even if she's not in touch with her own anxiety). Like she doesn't want something bad to happen to my mom or her kids so she can get very worked up and almost neurotic about that. But it's like it's still about her - not the other person. She acts more from a place of trying to cope or lower her own activation, than a place of, "Hey I want to offer some help here if I can." I wonder if you have an example of this: "An avoidant will be acting out avoidance thinking it's the right, best thing to do, without recognizing its unhealthy."
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2023 21:55:05 GMT
Your sister doesn't sound DA in this dynamic at all, does she have that diagnosis from a clinician? Has she claimed to be DA? It doesn't really even matter, all that matters is your side of the dynamic. It sounds like you have an enmeshed family, and withdrawing from enmeshment is not dysfunctional, if you're doing it with awareness and to take care of yourself.setrinf boundaries around your work time and space isn't withdrawing. It's not avoidant. It's just setting boundaries. Anxious, avoidant, secure, it's just a boundary that you put in place to preserve your energy and focus for your paid work. No. I was just reading the article that MRob posted and right away sounded like my sister. I clearly have no idea. But yes on enmeshment. Withdrawing is really part terrifying, part uplifting and part - I don't know, hard, and confusing. And, yes, for right now, that's how I'm treating it - My health, my kid, my work are priority and if there's energy left over, I can talk on the phone, help you with something, etc. I think it was just more the way in which I was doing it - like suddenly not responding to texts or stating I will no longer be in communication if such and such happens. And, yes, it's more about my side of the street than what my sister or anyone else is doing.
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Post by mrob on Jul 14, 2023 23:09:32 GMT
One day I realised that there were quite a few people who would just talk at me on the phone, including my mother. They wouldn’t ask anything about my life, how my daughter and I was.. they’d go on about themselves and others. I decided I would just not respond. Firstly,I stopped calling, then in conversation I let them talk and finish the call when I wanted. I was testing to see if anything was changing. Then I just dropped them off. Didn’t answer the calls. The only exception was my mother, and she’s no longer with us. I felt so lonely as a child that any friendship in adulthood I held onto, even though the whole concept of friendship has baffled me forever. I’d rather not have any friends than have leeches of time and energy. I’ve come to see that while I have heaps of acquaintances, I’ll always have a real struggle with true friendships.
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Post by seeking on Jul 15, 2023 14:57:46 GMT
One day I realised that there were quite a few people who would just talk at me on the phone, including my mother. They wouldn’t ask anything about my life, how my daughter and I was.. they’d go on about themselves and others. I decided I would just not respond. Firstly,I stopped calling, then in conversation I let them talk and finish the call when I wanted. I was testing to see if anything was changing. Then I just dropped them off. Didn’t answer the calls. The only exception was my mother, and she’s no longer with us. I felt so lonely as a child that any friendship in adulthood I held onto, even though the whole concept of friendship has baffled me forever. I’d rather not have any friends than have leeches of time and energy. I’ve come to see that while I have heaps of acquaintances, I’ll always have a real struggle with true friendships. Yes, this is very familiar. For me, I know that my dad is in a trauma response - he needs to talk to soothe, and he'll use anyone he can call and talk at - it helps him in that "find" part of the nervous system (like attachment) and he can feel seen and heard and his NS settles. I spent a long time and did a lot of work around the pandemic to be able to be in a room with him (without having to take xanax) because I was afraid he'd die and I would have regrets. Did family constellations, all kinds of things. And there have been some moments - like I took a selfie of me and him. Or I hugged him. Or he was kinder to me. But he regularly "undoes" whatever that brings forth b/c I think he is undiagnosed autistic with a lot of developmental trauma and highly highly sensitive but is like an "old school" man and so it's just a crazy combination. Smells set him off, sounds. I trigger him all the time. Like if I say, "I was busy." He starts shouting "Ah. You always say that. Think about people who _______" (i.e., have it worse than me). It makes me not want to be around him. So basically our only connection, which is not really a connection at all, actually, is him calling me and talking at me about random things, telling me I should take my kid to church, talking about God (he was never religious my whole life), telling me about other families and kids and how great they are - and sprinkling in a bit of "we love your daughter" and "you're a good mom" -- it's truly exhausting and triggering. My sister is similar in some ways. Neither have any capacity for others. They can't say a simple "How are you?" because there is no room for you - only them. And I get its all because of trauma and they're maxed out. I have some friends and there is a genuine give and take. I think all the other stuff has lowered my own capacity so rather than calling and talking at people b/c I'm needing soothing, comfort, witness, etc, I just journal or nap or close off etc. I know my dad is the source of so many of my issues. He was physically abusive with my mom and violent when we were younger. He's mellowed. But I still have fears that he can hurt me or harm me. And I've gotten into some pretty abusive relationships .... I don't really blame him or hold things against him or make him the devil like I used to. It's just complicated. But, yeah, that was 50 years of my life - from my dad to abusive relationship after abusive relationship to having a kid who also has a dad with no capacity for her. It's a horrible cycle. I've been able to break it to the extent I no longer engage with abusive people, victims, or people who have no capacity for me (except, again, my family, b/c I still have parts that are terrified of losing any of them and want those connections). So I guess you can say I'm breaking the cycle, yet I have not yet succeeded in having a healthy adult relationship with a man/getting my needs met from someone in that way -- needs like being loved, feeling cared for, safe, etc. Maybe I will in this lifetime. That would be nice!
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Post by lovebunny on Jul 15, 2023 15:15:21 GMT
I lol-ed at "leeches of time and energy." Good friends can definitely be annoying, but I know I need a support system and try to make as many close friends as I can. 6 months ago when I left my exbf's house in the middle of the night and needed a place to stay, and people to help me through emotionally, a few good ones stepped up and I don't know how I'd have survived without them.
I'm reading this and noticing that my attachment anxiety doesn't seem to come out in my friendships, or I don't think so anyway. so I'm able to maintain, and sever, friendships in a way that I simply cannot seem to master with romantic partners.
I seem to have few problems navigating challenging personalities in my friendships, and if they become too annoying, I easily walk away. Not with breakups or drama, just slowly stop showing up, stop making time for them.
I never "lose myself" in a friendship, only love affairs. I'm an introvert who prefers a handful of close friends. Maybe I keep friends a little at arms length, but I think most would say I show up for my friendships.
My family isn't in my life much, we live far apart and don't talk much and never about anything real. They're just sort of this blandly friendly presence in the background, so no drama there.
Interestingly, my attachment issues seem strictly relegated to my romantic life.
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Post by seeking on Jul 15, 2023 18:56:00 GMT
I lol-ed at "leeches of time and energy." Good friends can definitely be annoying, but I know I need a support system and try to make as many close friends as I can. 6 months ago when I left my exbf's house in the middle of the night and needed a place to stay, and people to help me through emotionally, a few good ones stepped up and I don't know how I'd have survived without them. I'm reading this and noticing that my attachment anxiety doesn't seem to come out in my friendships, or I don't think so anyway. so I'm able to maintain, and sever, friendships in a way that I simply cannot seem to master with romantic partners. I seem to have few problems navigating challenging personalities in my friendships, and if they become too annoying, I easily walk away. Not with breakups or drama, just slowly stop showing up, stop making time for them. I never "lose myself" in a friendship, only love affairs. I'm an introvert who prefers a handful of close friends. Maybe I keep friends a little at arms length, but I think most would say I show up for my friendships. My family isn't in my life much, we live far apart and don't talk much and never about anything real. They're just sort of this blandly friendly presence in the background, so no drama there. Interestingly, my attachment issues seem strictly relegated to my romantic life. Not to psychoanalyze you.... But my guess is that if you were closer to your family - had to be - to take care of them or had a child, or lived close and interacted daily, you'd see the issues. There'd be drama. The romantic life thing is from the mom dad thing. Always IMHO. It seems the more healing we do, the more awareness goes back to what the root is - mom, dad, early experiences. And the more we can work directly with those experiences. That has been my experience and path. I got stuck for years working on this relationship or that - this break up, this person, without really ever going back to the root stuff. Which is where I am now. And it's a gnarly mess of roots. I think when there is early trauma, there's a myriad of ways we can cope until we heal. And relationships with boys (and sex and alcohol and food restriction) were mine. Until I got destroyed by all that, had a kid with someone, and cleaned up my act slowly but surely. I'm sober now on the love addiction front. I've healed from a lot of abuse but there's still more to go (and the boundaries are helping). And those niggling insecurities and codependencies and drama triangles (I was usually the victim or the rescuer) became clear in a lot of my friendships. Like you, I thought I didn't have an issue with friendships and it was my love addiction. But for a long time, that was just what was loudest in my life. Turns out the whole house of cards was built on a shaky foundation.
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Post by lovebunny on Jul 15, 2023 20:38:12 GMT
Oh yeah, the physical distance from my family is intentional. Because they don't give much in the way of warmth or connection. I'm an only child, so they day I'll have to interact with them regularly will come soon enough as they're getting old. Now, I visit them once every few years and videochat on major holidays, then I'm done.
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Post by mrob on Jul 15, 2023 23:38:20 GMT
Oh yeah, the physical distance from my family is intentional. Because they don't give much in the way of warmth or connection. I'm an only child, so they day I'll have to interact with them regularly will come soon enough as they're getting old. Now, I visit them once every few years and videochat on major holidays, then I'm done. That’s where I was. On the other side of the country. Thank goodness for my sister, who had an entirely different relationship with our Mum, we were able to do the end of life stuff well. It’s only my 92 year old grandmother now, and that’s hard.
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