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Post by SpeakCzar on Sept 7, 2023 2:36:27 GMT
There's no reason to assume that when she gets older she will be an appropriate partner. But at 20, in college and you aren't? Two different worlds, lifestyles, maturity levels (presumed). And yes- you accept her as she is and make a decision for yourself. You will get over it, and in time be able to move on from it. And for the record, for her sake, I really hope she grows into someone capable of intimate and vulnerable relationships. As it is right now, she can’t, and based on her inability to take accountability for her avoidance and lack of empathy, she likely won’t for while. As you and I both noted, it’s not right to expect her to grow into that anytime soon, if at all. If she turns that corner and decides to contact me in sincerity and not manic hysterics, then I might be open to chat, in the highly unlikely event I haven’t found someone. People aren’t their parents, but I lived in the same town as her parents and would hangout with them multiple times a week.. stay over at their house for the night.. cook them dinner, go to breakfast, hike, bible study, list goes on. I’d mow their yard and help them fix their house. I never once saw her parents kiss, tell each other they loved each other, or even touched. No hugging, no cuddling on the couch, I actually hated this part. There was a couple times where the mom would ask the husband to sit near her, and he’d either completely ignore her and or just say “you can sit near me”. This pissed me off. I wanted to cuddle with her because I loved her, and it was a weird dynamic. They’re hurting. not even kind words. The husband slept on the couch with me most nights. This behavior was the same towards her daughter. She’s got a long road ahead of her, it’s been a fucking battle working on myself to make sure I don’t treat my future partner like my dad treats my mom. She’s not even close to being aware. My convo with her mom after the breakup, she said her and her husband make it work. They just avoid their problems. She had always just gotten busy with work, and she says it works for them. Valentines was coming up and I asked what he was doing for her, he said nothing. Lol. Told him to make dinner and clean the kitchen. He did and she confided in me that it was insanely special. Felt like I was saving their relationship as well as mine with her daughter.. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2023 14:40:17 GMT
NOTE: Choose a partner for the reality of them, not for the potential you imagine. Never for potential. That's a fantasy. Live and learn. To also give myself some credit, the *only* fantasy I bought into was the one that she projected during the first couple months of the relationship. I didn’t understand her sudden shift and coldness, not to mention the insults, the belittling, the devaluation, the lying, the double standards, the controlling. List goes on... Now I do. Some of my most favorite quotes from the relationship “I hate it when you tell me no, to anything.” “I’m not the kind of person to ask you to spend time with me.” “You should find someone else, I’m a terrible person.” “I don’t deserve you.” “If someone treated me the way I treat you, I’d leave” “When you take accountability it makes me cringe” ^^this one was hilarious I admit I just laughed.. actually I laughed in response to a lot of these. *didn’t talk to me for nearly two weeks one time, then she calls and I missed her phone call, then she proceeded to ignore me for another couple days because I missed the call!* “I feel like you’re not obsessed with me anymore” *in response to my favorite thing to tell her when she’s distressed, which is “you’re enough for me just the way you are.”* “I hate when you say that, it’s basically telling me I’m not perfect.” *in response to me telling her how something she does makes me feel* “You telling me this makes me miss being single.” “I can’t feel guilt, it’s just not something I can ever handle” *in response to me commenting on her drinking habits *3-4 times a week, to excess to the point where she would get sick/pass out on bathroom floor/be incapacitated to text me/let me know she got home safe* “If it wasn’t the alcohol, it would be something else” “I really didn’t want to do a relationship, but my mom Convinced me at first” (a couple months into being in the relationship.. lol) Some red flags were: very rarely communicated with her parents. No real friends. Only casual sex in the past. Highly critical of others. Complete political polarity, zero tolerance for opinions or views outside of her own. Never initiated. Zero eye contact. Self admitted depression, I actually overlooked this which was my bad, she talked about it once in the beginning of the relationship in a roundabout way. Way to hyper sexual in the beginning, disrespected my boundary of waiting to have sex until marriage (I’ll admit I played an equal part in this one, as in I let it happen, but when I brought it up it was overtly disrespected and mocked and disregarded). CONSTANT guilt of “who she really is” and once I “find out who she *really is* then I’ll leave her”. I had no clue what to make of this nor did I know what she meant; she never elaborated and almost always talked about it just moments before security getting on the plane to go back to school, so it never came up again. Self admitted she never tells anyone about anything. Alcoholism and recent extreme drug abuse. This latter one we talked about and she said it was in her past, so it was right for me to disregard it, but I have a feeling she wasn’t telling me the whole truth about being off drugs… not to mention our first breakup that’s what she went to to do. Anyway, best to just give benefit of the doubt, doesn’t matter now. Here are some of the ways I was devalued.. “I can’t imagine sharing a bed with you” (after getting back together from the first breakup) “I can’t imagine raising a daughter with you” “I am ashamed and embarrassed (to be your girlfriend)” Then would flip to the “You’re too good for me” stuff, etc. Would call me a racist and a sexist, just have to take my word that it was without any actual baseline. Then would go on to say “I can’t imagine having kids with anyone else… can’t see myself marrying anyone else…” What the fuck…. Why did I stay in this… I’ll keep coming back and adding because it’s helping me to move on You stayed in this because your approach to relationship is extraordinarily unhealthy. You have some work to do on your own psychology. I would advise you to stop finding fault with her psychology and take a look at your own because that's where your real problem is. As for me, when I came out of crap relationships I've always wondered where I went wrong to get involved like that. How I deluded myself, what I was missing. It baffled me how my bar could be so low with poor treatment. It's because of the original dynamics in my family of origin, and subsequent traumas as well(from abusive relationships). In every single case, listing the wrongs of a partner served one purpose... to illuminate where I needed to change MY OWN FAULTY approach. That's on me, I'm nobody's victim no matter how slick they are. There were always, without exception, instances where I was dysfunctional and stepped right in the pile of shit. What I have learned is, I am responsible for the quality of my relationships, full stop. Yes it takes two, but if I'm miserable then I've got to adjust... with boundaries, communication, my own reactions, and sometimes whether or not to even continue with a person who I don't vibe well with for whatever reason. I'm no hostage, nobody controls me, I control myself. Nobody has a gun to my head, nobody owes me anything. If someone can't keep their word, is mean, doesn't love me, doesn't respect me, has horrible behavior, isn't grown up yet, does things I can't live with, I walk! I am a free person, and if I use terrible judgement that's on me and I learn about myself and how to do better and be healthier. Anxious attachers are not superior in any way shape or form, than avoidant attachers. It's all sick, it's all toxic. Insecure is insecure and it just shows up in different ways. The sooner you grasp that the sooner you will find the real answers and stop acting like a victim in a mutually chosen relationship. She didn't do a dang thing to you that you had to take from her, you made a choice to let yourself down in favor of an idea you had about how you want things to go. Figure out why you did that to yourself, that's where all your answers lie. |
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Post by SpeakCzar on Sept 7, 2023 15:57:56 GMT
To also give myself some credit, the *only* fantasy I bought into was the one that she projected during the first couple months of the relationship. I didn’t understand her sudden shift and coldness, not to mention the insults, the belittling, the devaluation, the lying, the double standards, the controlling. List goes on... Now I do. Some of my most favorite quotes from the relationship “I hate it when you tell me no, to anything.” “I’m not the kind of person to ask you to spend time with me.” “You should find someone else, I’m a terrible person.” “I don’t deserve you.” “If someone treated me the way I treat you, I’d leave” “When you take accountability it makes me cringe” ^^this one was hilarious I admit I just laughed.. actually I laughed in response to a lot of these. *didn’t talk to me for nearly two weeks one time, then she calls and I missed her phone call, then she proceeded to ignore me for another couple days because I missed the call!* “I feel like you’re not obsessed with me anymore” *in response to my favorite thing to tell her when she’s distressed, which is “you’re enough for me just the way you are.”* “I hate when you say that, it’s basically telling me I’m not perfect.” *in response to me telling her how something she does makes me feel* “You telling me this makes me miss being single.” “I can’t feel guilt, it’s just not something I can ever handle” *in response to me commenting on her drinking habits *3-4 times a week, to excess to the point where she would get sick/pass out on bathroom floor/be incapacitated to text me/let me know she got home safe* “If it wasn’t the alcohol, it would be something else” “I really didn’t want to do a relationship, but my mom Convinced me at first” (a couple months into being in the relationship.. lol) Some red flags were: very rarely communicated with her parents. No real friends. Only casual sex in the past. Highly critical of others. Complete political polarity, zero tolerance for opinions or views outside of her own. Never initiated. Zero eye contact. Self admitted depression, I actually overlooked this which was my bad, she talked about it once in the beginning of the relationship in a roundabout way. Way to hyper sexual in the beginning, disrespected my boundary of waiting to have sex until marriage (I’ll admit I played an equal part in this one, as in I let it happen, but when I brought it up it was overtly disrespected and mocked and disregarded). CONSTANT guilt of “who she really is” and once I “find out who she *really is* then I’ll leave her”. I had no clue what to make of this nor did I know what she meant; she never elaborated and almost always talked about it just moments before security getting on the plane to go back to school, so it never came up again. Self admitted she never tells anyone about anything. Alcoholism and recent extreme drug abuse. This latter one we talked about and she said it was in her past, so it was right for me to disregard it, but I have a feeling she wasn’t telling me the whole truth about being off drugs… not to mention our first breakup that’s what she went to to do. Anyway, best to just give benefit of the doubt, doesn’t matter now. Here are some of the ways I was devalued.. “I can’t imagine sharing a bed with you” (after getting back together from the first breakup) “I can’t imagine raising a daughter with you” “I am ashamed and embarrassed (to be your girlfriend)” Then would flip to the “You’re too good for me” stuff, etc. Would call me a racist and a sexist, just have to take my word that it was without any actual baseline. Then would go on to say “I can’t imagine having kids with anyone else… can’t see myself marrying anyone else…” What the fuck…. Why did I stay in this… I’ll keep coming back and adding because it’s helping me to move on You stayed in this because your approach to relationship is extraordinarily unhealthy. You have some work to do on your own psychology. I would advise you to stop finding fault with her psychology and take a look at your own because that's where your real problem is. As for me, when I came out of crap relationships I've always wondered where I went wrong to get involved like that. How I deluded myself, what I was missing. It baffled me how my bar could be so low with poor treatment. It's because of the original dynamics in my family of origin, and subsequent traumas as well(from abusive relationships). In every single case, listing the wrongs of a partner served one purpose... to illuminate where I needed to change MY OWN FAULTY approach. That's on me, I'm nobody's victim no matter how slick they are. There were always, without exception, instances where I was dysfunctional and stepped right in the pile of shit. What I have learned is, I am responsible for the quality of my relationships, full stop. Yes it takes two, but if I'm miserable then I've got to adjust... with boundaries, communication, my own reactions, and sometimes whether or not to even continue with a person who I don't vibe well with for whatever reason. I'm no hostage, nobody controls me, I control myself. Nobody has a gun to my head, nobody owes me anything. If someone can't keep their word, is mean, doesn't love me, doesn't respect me, has horrible behavior, isn't grown up yet, does things I can't live with, I walk! I am a free person, and if I use terrible judgement that's on me and I learn about myself and how to do better and be healthier. Anxious attachers are not superior in any way shape or form, than avoidant attachers. It's all sick, it's all toxic. Insecure is insecure and it just shows up in different ways. The sooner you grasp that the sooner you will find the real answers and stop acting like a victim in a mutually chosen relationship. She didn't do a dang thing to you that you had to take from her, you made a choice to let yourself down in favor of an idea you had about how you want things to go. Figure out why you did that to yourself, that's where all your answers lie. You’re the man. Brutal but spot on. I hold the keys to the kingdom. Forget the specifics of what was done/said, what is it about ME that sat through it, that turned the other cheek. It’s so easy for me to just say “I’m a lover, I love and give patience and grace and acceptance”, and while those are the RIGHT things to do… it’s absolutely possible to do them with the wrong person. What is it about me that felt I needed to concede these things.. respect and dignity, in order to keep this relationship afloat? Thank you for the tough love. It’s easy for me to sit here and fire away all the ways in which I was wrong, “wah wah, poor me.” Reality is, I’m an adult, just like she is, and I have agency to both 1) do as I feel is right in my relationship and 2) determine what I will and will not accept! I am eager and excited to practice acceptance and grace and patience in the *right* relationship. What is it about me that saw this behavior and treatment towards me as a reflection of my worth? It’s a classic “if I do things right then she won’t treat me this way”. That’s false. I see that clearly now. That starts with having some self-respect and figuring out what I will and will not tolerate. Here’s what I need to keep in check : “I did everything I could, why wasn’t it enough?” “What was wrong with me that she left?” And any other variation of her inability to be in a relationship as a reflection of my worth. These are the thoughts plaguing me that are all fallacious. It has *nothing* to do with me. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2023 17:07:37 GMT
You stayed in this because your approach to relationship is extraordinarily unhealthy. You have some work to do on your own psychology. I would advise you to stop finding fault with her psychology and take a look at your own because that's where your real problem is. As for me, when I came out of crap relationships I've always wondered where I went wrong to get involved like that. How I deluded myself, what I was missing. It baffled me how my bar could be so low with poor treatment. It's because of the original dynamics in my family of origin, and subsequent traumas as well(from abusive relationships). In every single case, listing the wrongs of a partner served one purpose... to illuminate where I needed to change MY OWN FAULTY approach. That's on me, I'm nobody's victim no matter how slick they are. There were always, without exception, instances where I was dysfunctional and stepped right in the pile of shit. What I have learned is, I am responsible for the quality of my relationships, full stop. Yes it takes two, but if I'm miserable then I've got to adjust... with boundaries, communication, my own reactions, and sometimes whether or not to even continue with a person who I don't vibe well with for whatever reason. I'm no hostage, nobody controls me, I control myself. Nobody has a gun to my head, nobody owes me anything. If someone can't keep their word, is mean, doesn't love me, doesn't respect me, has horrible behavior, isn't grown up yet, does things I can't live with, I walk! I am a free person, and if I use terrible judgement that's on me and I learn about myself and how to do better and be healthier. Anxious attachers are not superior in any way shape or form, than avoidant attachers. It's all sick, it's all toxic. Insecure is insecure and it just shows up in different ways. The sooner you grasp that the sooner you will find the real answers and stop acting like a victim in a mutually chosen relationship. She didn't do a dang thing to you that you had to take from her, you made a choice to let yourself down in favor of an idea you had about how you want things to go. Figure out why you did that to yourself, that's where all your answers lie. You’re the man. Brutal but spot on. I hold the keys to the kingdom. Forget the specifics of what was done/said, what is it about ME that sat through it, that turned the other cheek. It’s so easy for me to just say “I’m a lover, I love and give patience and grace and acceptance”, and while those are the RIGHT things to do… it’s absolutely possible to do them with the wrong person. What is it about me that felt I needed to concede these things.. respect and dignity, in order to keep this relationship afloat? Thank you for the tough love. It’s easy for me to sit here and fire away all the ways in which I was wrong, “wah wah, poor me.” Reality is, I’m an adult, just like she is, and I have agency to both 1) do as I feel is right in my relationship and 2) determine what I will and will not accept! I am eager and excited to practice acceptance and grace and patience in the *right* relationship. What is it about me that saw this behavior and treatment towards me as a reflection of my worth? It’s a classic “if I do things right then she won’t treat me this way”. That’s false. I see that clearly now. That starts with having some self-respect and figuring out what I will and will not tolerate. Here’s what I need to keep in check : “I did everything I could, why wasn’t it enough?” “What was wrong with me that she left?” And any other variation of her inability to be in a relationship as a reflection of my worth. These are the thoughts plaguing me that are all fallacious. It has *nothing* to do with me. I truly don't mean to be brutal. I mean to be direct and express what I believe to be the reality. Its how I've found personal happiness and gained the ability to be in loving, supportive, transformational relationships. I am actually a woman, early 50s, coming from a dismissive orientation and earning secure through my own personal journey. I have never engaged in the abusive things that you detail in your post, so I don't know what that woman has going on but it doesn't matter. I've been the target in abusive dynamics, and there are other factors at play such as cluster B disorders, etc. There is such a thing as trauma bonding, collapsing emotionally and feeling entrenched, etc etc. And still, the way out is through personal action. I don't know of a calvary that comes in to remove adult victims from poor relationships. People ultimately liberate themselves one way or another- some get left and some do the leaving. No matter how it happens, what happens next is a matter of personal choice. It can be therapy, it can be drugs, it can be blaming, it can be taking responsibility. It is all up to you how you navigate the experience and repeat or reform. I am happy for you that you are able to see an opportunity for your own empowerment here. You're young, you have life ahead of you. My son is about your age and extricating from a terrible dynamic. But he's got his self esteem intact again, he's got a balanced perspective in which he is not a victim, unless he allows himself to be. He has learned so much about how to have boundaries, self-love, self respect. He's an amazing young man who has a huge heart and has earned his place among men, I am so proud. His father turned to drug addiction when he was just two and left him to question his worth too. It almost killed him, I think. But he's going to be fine. He's a lot more aware and healed than I was at his age. I've been able to mentor him in this process because I've undertaken it myself. It can be a long road but it's the only way to go. |
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Post by SpeakCzar on Sept 10, 2023 22:27:33 GMT
You’re the man. Brutal but spot on. I hold the keys to the kingdom. Forget the specifics of what was done/said, what is it about ME that sat through it, that turned the other cheek. It’s so easy for me to just say “I’m a lover, I love and give patience and grace and acceptance”, and while those are the RIGHT things to do… it’s absolutely possible to do them with the wrong person. What is it about me that felt I needed to concede these things.. respect and dignity, in order to keep this relationship afloat? Thank you for the tough love. It’s easy for me to sit here and fire away all the ways in which I was wrong, “wah wah, poor me.” Reality is, I’m an adult, just like she is, and I have agency to both 1) do as I feel is right in my relationship and 2) determine what I will and will not accept! I am eager and excited to practice acceptance and grace and patience in the *right* relationship. What is it about me that saw this behavior and treatment towards me as a reflection of my worth? It’s a classic “if I do things right then she won’t treat me this way”. That’s false. I see that clearly now. That starts with having some self-respect and figuring out what I will and will not tolerate. Here’s what I need to keep in check : “I did everything I could, why wasn’t it enough?” “What was wrong with me that she left?” And any other variation of her inability to be in a relationship as a reflection of my worth. These are the thoughts plaguing me that are all fallacious. It has *nothing* to do with me. I truly don't mean to be brutal. I mean to be direct and express what I believe to be the reality. Its how I've found personal happiness and gained the ability to be in loving, supportive, transformational relationships. I am actually a woman, early 50s, coming from a dismissive orientation and earning secure through my own personal journey. I have never engaged in the abusive things that you detail in your post, so I don't know what that woman has going on but it doesn't matter. I've been the target in abusive dynamics, and there are other factors at play such as cluster B disorders, etc. There is such a thing as trauma bonding, collapsing emotionally and feeling entrenched, etc etc. And still, the way out is through personal action. I don't know of a calvary that comes in to remove adult victims from poor relationships. People ultimately liberate themselves one way or another- some get left and some do the leaving. No matter how it happens, what happens next is a matter of personal choice. It can be therapy, it can be drugs, it can be blaming, it can be taking responsibility. It is all up to you how you navigate the experience and repeat or reform. I am happy for you that you are able to see an opportunity for your own empowerment here. You're young, you have life ahead of you. My son is about your age and extricating from a terrible dynamic. But he's got his self esteem intact again, he's got a balanced perspective in which he is not a victim, unless he allows himself to be. He has learned so much about how to have boundaries, self-love, self respect. He's an amazing young man who has a huge heart and has earned his place among men, I am so proud. His father turned to drug addiction when he was just two and left him to question his worth too. It almost killed him, I think. But he's going to be fine. He's a lot more aware and healed than I was at his age. I've been able to mentor him in this process because I've undertaken it myself. It can be a long road but it's the only way to go. That's my mistake for assuming, I typically connect the tough love you've been showing me with how men have responded to these issues in my life. You're not being brutal, but you are compassionately highlighting the very brutal nature of this dysfunctional relationship and consequential toxic break-up, which, for me, is needed. I respond well to being told how it is. That has always been my goal, from the very day I started therapy a year and some change ago, until today, and for the rest of my life, to have the ability to join another in a loving, supportive, mutual relationship. It doesn't matter what she has going on. It does matter how I have internalized it and taken it all as personal. How I have allowed it to be a reflection of me and my worth. How I latched onto a fantasy, and an idealized image of this person, and how those mechanisms lead me to allow such behavior. I've come across the terms cognitive dissonance and intermittent reinforcement, two terms that resonate deeply in my experience with this relationship. " The only way out is through personal action". Love it. While I have taken back up my cigarette habit, I have not once turned to casual relationships, drugs, alcohol, or anything else overtly destructive. I do, however, stray my path of my goals, get complacent in some things such as hygiene and my studies, as well as my physical training... but I have learned to give myself some grace and allow for some time to grieve. Slowly coming back to those things that are important to me. I am having a good time getting out and dating again. I have no problem with rejection and have enjoyed being around beautiful women that want to engage in conversation. The more I reflect on this instance, the clearer my vision of what I am looking for in a relationship becomes. I have a very warm feeling when I reflect on that idea intimately, that it will feel safe, reciprocal, nurturing, loving, affectionate, and respectful. It will feel like we're rolling down the grassy hill, intertwined in one another, towards the cliff, off the edge, and into the waterfall! I am very much looking forward to applying all that i have learned in a future relationship, that I will ensure, as it is my agency, that it is meeting my needs. I am able, ready, and willing to be all that I can be in a mutually committed relationship. This is just like everything else God has provided for me in my life, an occasion to rise to. I've always strived to believe that "no matter what, I will be ok." That's been my MO in and out of this relationship, and the source of my strength. It's good to hear about your son. I wish for all my brothers and sisters in Christ to rise above and become who He desires them to be. Your son is going to be great. It is a long and painful road, but I am strong, and I will continue onward. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2023 14:52:44 GMT
It soundd like you've got a good grasp on the mindset required to determine your own destiny when it comes to relationships. This stuff isn't easy at all, but once you have awareness of your own internal dynamics and how they drive you, you can begin to catch yourself in the act when the old messages surface. Then you can develop new strategies to recondition yourself. And, it can be one step forward, two steps back, a lurch sideways, circling around a bit, making some progress then discovering a tricky blindspot, faltering steps forward, etc etc... it doesn't all come at once but the important thing is to keep going and give yourself grace, as you mentioned.
As you move forward you will also get a healthier idea of grace for the other person... you will learn what's healthy to tolerate and what's a definite deal breaker. Everybody struggles with their own issues coming into relationship, there's no perfection to be found, and you shouldn't expect it. I read someone put it this way... it's not that you won't have baggage but it should be carry-on sized rather than trunks and checked bags, haha.
My partner and I continue to work through conflicts around our differences, sore spots, triggers and wounds. The overall trajectory should be one of discovery, acceptance, and compassion emanating from both people, not just one sided. And, there are things other than attachment to contend with. Neurodivergence such as exists in my relationship requires additional understanding and a tailored approach.
The point is, when you have that sense of agency, and a solid sense of self love and self respect, you will be attracted to situations that reflect it back to you. And, you will more easily be able to recognize a partner who also has a healthy sense of responsibility in the relationship, who behaves with self love and respect. It generates a totally different dynamic than you will see with two people lacking these attributes. What you endured in this last relationshit (no typo) is an example of that.
Onward and upward, it's a learning experience. Your next one may be one as well, but if so don't give up just keep going. It took me literally decades before I had the self awareness needed, and another decade with awareness to be able to overcome my collapse into avoidance. Time past is gone, I learned along the way and will continue. That's life. I'm thankful, because some stay stuck until they die, I've seen it. Not me, I don't want that and there's a lot I can do about it.
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