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Post by leavethelighton on Aug 31, 2018 0:57:50 GMT
I wonder if there really are significantly more male avoidants than female, or if it just manifests differently enough that we might perceive it that way (kind of like how the way we tend to think of autism is how it manifests in males though it may be different in females).
Since people parent/treat males and females in somewhat different ways I wouldn't expect all attachment styles to be equally represented across gender lines, but I wonder if other social norms affect how it manifests by gender. For example, maybe a male avoidant is more likely to physically leave the family whereas a female might physically stick around due to societal expectations, but the emotional dynamic would still be there. Just speculating...
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Post by happyidiot on Aug 31, 2018 3:05:23 GMT
I wonder if there really are significantly more male avoidants than female, or if it just manifests differently enough that we might perceive it that way (kind of like how the way we tend to think of autism is how it manifests in males though it may be different in females). Since people parent/treat males and females in somewhat different ways I wouldn't expect all attachment styles to be equally represented across gender lines, but I wonder if other social norms affect how it manifests by gender. For example, maybe a male avoidant is more likely to physically leave the family whereas a female might physically stick around due to societal expectations, but the emotional dynamic would still be there. Just speculating... Seems like researchers have similar speculations: "Although the findings are inconsistent and controversial, there is some support that, at least in adulthood, men may tend to report higher avoidance and women may tend to report higher ambivalence [anxious attachment]. There are, however, incidences where women report higher avoidance and men report higher ambivalence and these findings might be more interesting and productive to understand the importance of sex differences in attachment. As researchers continue to explore this controversial issue, it will be interesting to pay particular attention to the effect when individuals go against the “norm” – what is the effect when the insecure female or male is “different” than what would be expected. I would suggest that both the typical and the atypical sex differences will be informative." www.researchgate.net/publication/313020866_Sex_Differences_in_AttachmentIt's also interesting that women tend to have more difficulties if they have avoidant styles than men. My guess would be maybe it's because it's more socially acceptable for men to be avoidant, I think even secure men have more avoidant-seeming behaviors than secure women. |
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Post by happyidiot on Aug 31, 2018 3:13:25 GMT
AP's by nature are going to be attracted to DAs or FAs, because these people will make them "chase" love and that is what they were raised to do via inconsistent attention from their parents. (at least that's my understanding of the theory) My above post got messed up, I was trying to say: Yes, that makes complete sense. The ex I mentioned who it just dawned on me may have been AP made me chase him too, even though I'm sure he wasn't avoidant. He just really liked games and drama and making me jealous etc. When I was in a healthy relationship with a secure man who I knew loved me unconditionally and would never break up with me, I lost attraction for him. That was definitely not the main or only reason, but I wonder if it may have been a little part of it, and that seems quite sad. |
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Post by epicgum on Aug 31, 2018 4:17:35 GMT
AP's by nature are going to be attracted to DAs or FAs, because these people will make them "chase" love and that is what they were raised to do via inconsistent attention from their parents. (at least that's my understanding of the theory) My above post got messed up, I was trying to say: Yes, that makes complete sense. The ex I mentioned who it just dawned on me may have been AP made me chase him too, even though I'm sure he wasn't avoidant. He just really liked games and drama and making me jealous etc. When I was in a healthy relationship with a secure man who I knew loved me unconditionally and would never break up with me, I lost attraction for him. That was definitely not the main or only reason, but I wonder if it may have been a little part of it, and that seems quite sad. Yeah, the more I think about it, the more this makes sense. What was your relationship with your parents like? Were they controlling and you felt like you couldnt trust them and needed to "get away," or were they "not there" and you felt like you had to work to get their attention? |
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Post by epicgum on Aug 31, 2018 4:25:16 GMT
I wonder if there really are significantly more male avoidants than female, or if it just manifests differently enough that we might perceive it that way (kind of like how the way we tend to think of autism is how it manifests in males though it may be different in females). Since people parent/treat males and females in somewhat different ways I wouldn't expect all attachment styles to be equally represented across gender lines, but I wonder if other social norms affect how it manifests by gender. For example, maybe a male avoidant is more likely to physically leave the family whereas a female might physically stick around due to societal expectations, but the emotional dynamic would still be there. Just speculating... Seems like researchers have similar speculations: "Although the findings are inconsistent and controversial, there is some support that, at least in adulthood, men may tend to report higher avoidance and women may tend to report higher ambivalence [anxious attachment]. There are, however, incidences where women report higher avoidance and men report higher ambivalence and these findings might be more interesting and productive to understand the importance of sex differences in attachment. As researchers continue to explore this controversial issue, it will be interesting to pay particular attention to the effect when individuals go against the “norm” – what is the effect when the insecure female or male is “different” than what would be expected. I would suggest that both the typical and the atypical sex differences will be informative." www.researchgate.net/publication/313020866_Sex_Differences_in_AttachmentIt's also interesting that women tend to have more difficulties if they have avoidant styles than men. My guess would be maybe it's because it's more socially acceptable for men to be avoidant, I think even secure men have more avoidant-seeming behaviors than secure women. I think gender roles play a huge part in this...needy women who need to be comforted are basically a trope, needy men on the other hand are deemed weak and unmasaulin. Men are taught to be "needless" and strong, and hence have a LOT of trouble with vulnerability and identifying their feelings. (And men and women are equally responsible for perpetuating these roles) A lot of dating advice to men basically says to accentuate avoidant traits. |
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Post by happyidiot on Aug 31, 2018 5:25:40 GMT
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more this makes sense. What was your relationship with your parents like? Were they controlling and you felt like you couldnt trust them and needed to "get away," or were they "not there" and you felt like you had to work to get their attention? Good question. Both? One of my parents was a highly unpredictable, abusive, extremely controlling narcissist, who wasn't always there, although they were sometimes friendly and charming (as most narcissists are, otherwise no one would ever get close enough for them to abuse and control). They blamed me and I blamed myself, and I thought if only I were perfect I would be loved. I often ran away. My other parent was kind and loving but was not always able/around to comfort me because of the abusive parent. As a child I resented the non-abusive parent for not protecting me and taking me away from the abusive one. So basically one parent I didn't trust and wanted to run from but walked on eggshells to try not to set off, and the other parent I didn't really trust either but loved and wanted to cling onto and be saved by. Does this make sense as a situation that would make me AP and to chase love? Do you want to share how you think your parenting affected your attachment style? |
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Post by goldilocks on Aug 31, 2018 6:16:23 GMT
Thanks! I think I was editing my post while you were posting this. It's not a bad idea! Maybe I could be interested in another AP who was really hot and fun! Haha. Now I'm really curious if one of my exes might have possibly been AP. It was not a healthy relationship at all but I've grown a lot since then and would have had much firmer boundaries with him if I'd met him now. I'd previously assumed perhaps he was just a very badly behaved secure, since he was definitely not avoidant. You are most welcome! Working on yourself is always a game changer. And I think personal growth and firm boundaries help you with this. |
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Post by happyidiot on Aug 31, 2018 6:51:15 GMT
Jeb says:
"If you’re older, bad news: while you were spending time and effort on relationships you were hoping would turn out better, or even happily nestled in a good relationship or two, most of the secure, reliable, sane people in your age group got paired off. They’re married or happily enfamilied, and most of the people your age in the dating pool are tragically unable to form a good long-term relationship. You should always ask yourself, “why is this one still available?”—there may be a good answer (recently widowed or left a long-term relationship), or it may be that this person has just been extraordinarily unlucky in having over twenty short relationships in twenty years (to cite one case!) But it’s far more likely you have met someone with a problematic attachment style. As you age past 40, the percentage of the dating pool that is able to form a secure, stable relationship drops to less than 30%[1]; and since it can take months of dating to understand why Mr. or Ms. SeemsNice is really the future ex-partner from Hell, being able to recognize the difficult types will help you recognize them faster and move on to the next."
That sounds a bit harsh, as though everyone should just be snapping up the first available secure and quickly rejecting insecure attachers, who are automatically bad news. I read that 1 in 4 people are able to change their attachment style, so surely there are decent potential partners who are avoidants or anxiouses who have some self-insight and have done some personal growth and are on their way to secure. I'm AP and I don't think I'm "unable" to form a good healthy long-term relationship, and I have had one before.
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Post by alexandra on Aug 31, 2018 8:10:24 GMT
Good question. Both? One of my parents was a highly unpredictable, abusive, extremely controlling narcissist, who wasn't always there, although they were sometimes friendly and charming (as most narcissists are, otherwise no one would ever get close enough for them to abuse and control). Does this make sense as a situation that would make me AP and to chase love? Yes! Narcissistic caretakers tend to raise children who become either insecurely attached or narcissists themselves. In my opinion, it is more common to turn out AP and possibly empathic in the insecurely attached situation because of the stepping on eggshells to be "perfect", observing and anticipating the needs of the narcissist to placate, and being taught that another person's validation of you is the only thing that matters -- while also being forced to always validate them (and low opinion of self / high opinion of others --> AP). However, I've not looked up a data breakdown of anxious vs avoidant styled people with a narcissistic parent, and my best guess is it probably depends on if the narcissist is present (yet inconsistent or engulfing/smothering) or if s/he is avoidant and negligent/dismissing to the child (too self-absorbed to even pay attention). I'm so sorry you went through that. |
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Post by goldilocks on Aug 31, 2018 8:32:39 GMT
Jeb says: "If you’re older, bad news: while you were spending time and effort on relationships you were hoping would turn out better, or even happily nestled in a good relationship or two, most of the secure, reliable, sane people in your age group got paired off. They’re married or happily enfamilied, and most of the people your age in the dating pool are tragically unable to form a good long-term relationship. You should always ask yourself, “why is this one still available?”—there may be a good answer (recently widowed or left a long-term relationship), or it may be that this person has just been extraordinarily unlucky in having over twenty short relationships in twenty years (to cite one case!) But it’s far more likely you have met someone with a problematic attachment style. As you age past 40, the percentage of the dating pool that is able to form a secure, stable relationship drops to less than 30%[1]; and since it can take months of dating to understand why Mr. or Ms. SeemsNice is really the future ex-partner from Hell, being able to recognize the difficult types will help you recognize them faster and move on to the next."That sounds a bit harsh, as though everyone should just be snapping up the first available secure and quickly rejecting insecure attachers, who are automatically bad news. I read that 1 in 4 people are able to change their attachment style, so surely there are decent potential partners who are avoidants or anxiouses who have some self-insight and have done some personal growth and are on their way to secure. I'm AP and I don't think I'm "unable" to form a good healthy long-term relationship, and I have had one before. I think many AP and many avoidants can have a good healthy relationship with a secure or their own type; if they work on themselves and ensure they communicate effectively. People can and do work on themselves: qz.com/1206940/attachment-style-changes-with-age/This is the general population rather than the singles pool. But even by Jeb's statistic, 30% is still 6 in every 20 dates. No reason to lose hope. Some people are addicted to the roller coaster ride and will choose to mispair, but then it is better to own this choice than to blame the dating pool. There are always healthy options out there, and the option to stay single also remains. |
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Post by alexandra on Aug 31, 2018 8:56:39 GMT
Yes... it just sounds like there may be extra work in making sure you're playing the numbers game... meeting a bigger quantity of people. But still doable once you can figure out signs of what bad matches for you look like. That's the attitude I'm trying to work with right now, anyway  |
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Post by epicgum on Aug 31, 2018 11:55:55 GMT
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more this makes sense. What was your relationship with your parents like? Were they controlling and you felt like you couldnt trust them and needed to "get away," or were they "not there" and you felt like you had to work to get their attention? Good question. Both? One of my parents was a highly unpredictable, abusive, extremely controlling narcissist, who wasn't always there, although they were sometimes friendly and charming (as most narcissists are, otherwise no one would ever get close enough for them to abuse and control). They blamed me and I blamed myself, and I thought if only I were perfect I would be loved. I often ran away. My other parent was kind and loving but was not always able/around to comfort me because of the abusive parent. As a child I resented the non-abusive parent for not protecting me and taking me away from the abusive one. So basically one parent I didn't trust and wanted to run from but walked on eggshells to try not to set off, and the other parent I didn't really trust either but loved and wanted to cling onto and be saved by. Does this make sense as a situation that would make me AP and to chase love? Do you want to share how you think your parenting affected your attachment style? I'm hardly an expert, but yeah, that totally makes sense to me. You were taught that love is fleeting, and that you need to work for it, so it's not a surprise that you would replicate that in your romantic relationships. For myself, I didn't have a "bad" childhood that I can recall, but my parents A) couldnt handle ny tantrums and locked me in my room to handle myself B) both have crippling anxiety that washes over me and overwhelms me, so I need to detach emotionally when I am with them and C) they are pretty controlling/enmeshed in my life and D) they have terrible communication skills and are very VERY conflict avoidant. So, it makes sense that, since I am used to running from my parents control and anxiety (and I am used to them pursuing me) that I would run from love other places too....and that I would lack the relationship tools to really deal with problems. It's not ONLY your parents that influence this...its also your relationships with friends growing up and also past romantic relationships. I was bullied a lot in school and I think this reinforced the idea that people basically cannot be trusted/they are going to hurt you and you are better off alone. |
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Post by epicgum on Aug 31, 2018 12:06:27 GMT
Yes... it just sounds like there may be extra work in making sure you're playing the numbers game... meeting a bigger quantity of people. But still doable once you can figure out signs of what bad matches for you look like. That's the attitude I'm trying to work with right now, anyway Even if you end up with an insecure, I think better relationship skills can make all the difference. So, after the breakup, my exgf told me how much it caused her anxiety that I didn't always respond to texts right away...I'm not a cruel person, I would have made an effort to be better about that, or figured out another way to calm her anxieties. She always "joked" about me cheating on her, and so I laughed and joked right back....I didn't realize that she was actually seriously freaked out about that possibility. |
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Post by lilyg on Aug 31, 2018 12:45:27 GMT
Yes... it just sounds like there may be extra work in making sure you're playing the numbers game... meeting a bigger quantity of people. But still doable once you can figure out signs of what bad matches for you look like. That's the attitude I'm trying to work with right now, anyway Even if you end up with an insecure, I think better relationship skills can make all the difference. So, after the breakup, my exgf told me how much it caused her anxiety that I didn't always respond to texts right away...I'm not a cruel person, I would have made an effort to be better about that, or figured out another way to calm her anxieties. She always "joked" about me cheating on her, and so I laughed and joked right back....I didn't realize that she was actually seriously freaked out about that possibility. Totally, most people are actually decent and not being cruel. Ambiguity is surely the first killer of all type of relationships! |
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Post by epicgum on Aug 31, 2018 13:42:50 GMT
Even if you end up with an insecure, I think better relationship skills can make all the difference. So, after the breakup, my exgf told me how much it caused her anxiety that I didn't always respond to texts right away...I'm not a cruel person, I would have made an effort to be better about that, or figured out another way to calm her anxieties. She always "joked" about me cheating on her, and so I laughed and joked right back....I didn't realize that she was actually seriously freaked out about that possibility. Totally, most people are actually decent and not being cruel. Ambiguity is surely the first killer of all type of relationships! Another thought....just like APs need a lot of reassurance in general life, avoidants need LOTS of assurance during conflict. Because if there is conflict and 'angry AP' is yelling at them, they are going to jump to "this person doesn't like me and is stressing me out and I need to run away". APs addressing things to As need to be both very firm and very loving at the same time, and to be clear how much happier it would make them....if it is just angry stick and no carrot, then it is going to "trigger" the As memories of being controlled/punished by parents....they are going to resent you...and they are going to default to seeking independence. At the same time...is IS important to be firm and clear, because the A will have another instinct to dodge and people please and placate to get the stressor to go away. Another important thing is to make an effort to discuss "why" the A feels the way they do about a certain issue, ideally in a non-threatening "academic" manner and what compromises might be possible to get closer to addressing your needs. I've also read it advised to have these sorts of conversations while distracted, doing something together in tandem like bike riding or cooking. This puts you physically parallel to the A so that you are "on the same team" and it is not a confrontation. Hmmm, ok. That's enough rambling thoughts for now!  |
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