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Post by alexandra on Nov 29, 2021 23:17:33 GMT
Yes! Narcissistic supply means you don't see another person as a person. Everyone is just an extension of you, and their only value in existing is propping you up and making you feel good. They have no real hopes or dreams or internal landscape because NPD has no empathy.
Needing external validation doesn't mean you lack empathy and dismiss others as having no other value or feelings. I agree that as you've been questioning all this and are seeing progress and different angles in how you're processing it that you're not NPD. I've been in very close proximity to real NPD, and you cannot penetrate their perspective in any way. You have some resistance and some trouble processing certain concepts, but it's not remotely the same as trying to have a conversation about emotional health and personal growth with someone with NPD. Being of the other end of that conversation with a real narcissist is a constant barrage of doubting your reality, really, whether or not you or they are an attachment figure or romantically involved.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2021 0:27:40 GMT
Yes! Narcissistic supply means you don't see another person as a person. Everyone is just an extension of you, and their only value in existing is propping you up and making you feel good. They have no real hopes or dreams or internal landscape because NPD has no empathy. Needing external validation doesn't mean you lack empathy and dismiss others as having no other value or feelings. I agree that as you've been questioning all this and are seeing progress and different angles in how you're processing it that you're not NPD. I've been in very close proximity to real NPD, and you cannot penetrate their perspective in any way. You have some resistance and some trouble processing certain concepts, but it's not remotely the same as trying to have a conversation about emotional health and personal growth with someone with NPD. Being of the other end of that conversation with a real narcissist is a constant barrage of doubting your reality, really, whether or not you or they are an attachment figure or romantically involved. You always nail it. You should write a book!! |
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Post by krolle on Nov 30, 2021 0:41:05 GMT
Yes! Narcissistic supply means you don't see another person as a person. Everyone is just an extension of you, and their only value in existing is propping you up and making you feel good. They have no real hopes or dreams or internal landscape because NPD has no empathy. Needing external validation doesn't mean you lack empathy and dismiss others as having no other value or feelings. I agree that as you've been questioning all this and are seeing progress and different angles in how you're processing it that you're not NPD. I've been in very close proximity to real NPD, and you cannot penetrate their perspective in any way. You have some resistance and some trouble processing certain concepts, but it's not remotely the same as trying to have a conversation about emotional health and personal growth with someone with NPD. Being of the other end of that conversation with a real narcissist is a constant barrage of doubting your reality, really, whether or not you or they are an attachment figure or romantically involved. Well that does sound pretty extreme. Jeez. quiet scary to think of having a viewpoint like that. I wasn't referring to NPD though. I mean the way people just generally use each other for validation, Which sounds like a narcassistic supply thing to me. It's not that people are not seen as separate. But that the desperate need for validation and desire to avoid difficult feelings blinds people to the suffering caused, and allows justification for poor behaviour. It's like a hunger that even when trying to be ethical can only be staved off so much before one needs to steal the proverbial sustenance from someone else. It's hard to imagine how one would stop this hunger. |
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Post by alexandra on Nov 30, 2021 1:32:24 GMT
krolle, everyone has some narcissistic traits. Yes. They exist on a spectrum. You have to because living completely in service to others and not having a sense of self in that way would be hard on individual survival, which is bad as a species. So it's healthy to have some. Insecures in the throws of overwhelm tend to have higher narcissism on the "spectrum" of it than others or even than themselves when they are not triggered. Their defense mechanisms, the ones learned and leftover from being the age of a child, kick it up many notches. Narcissists built a fake persona and effectively killed their real ego to protect themselves. Maybe there's some overlap conceptually, but again as you noted, real narcissism is extreme. You don't know who you are at your core, is the problem. With a weak sense of inward identity, how can you define anything outside of the lens of others? So understanding how to create sustenance for yourself instead of taking it from others is foreign. But it's not a sum zero game. You can create new sustenance. At some point, you stopped emotionally maturing as a kid and had to work with what you had because you had no one teaching you otherwise. That's where the concept of reparenting yourself as an adult comes in. And is another aspect to add to your search of finding the right experienced therapist match who has had success with other people similar to your current position.
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Post by alexandra on Nov 30, 2021 1:34:29 GMT
Thanks, @introvert!
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Post by tnr9 on Nov 30, 2021 4:06:50 GMT
Yes! Narcissistic supply means you don't see another person as a person. Everyone is just an extension of you, and their only value in existing is propping you up and making you feel good. They have no real hopes or dreams or internal landscape because NPD has no empathy. Needing external validation doesn't mean you lack empathy and dismiss others as having no other value or feelings. I agree that as you've been questioning all this and are seeing progress and different angles in how you're processing it that you're not NPD. I've been in very close proximity to real NPD, and you cannot penetrate their perspective in any way. You have some resistance and some trouble processing certain concepts, but it's not remotely the same as trying to have a conversation about emotional health and personal growth with someone with NPD. Being of the other end of that conversation with a real narcissist is a constant barrage of doubting your reality, really, whether or not you or they are an attachment figure or romantically involved. Well that does sound pretty extreme. Jeez. quiet scary to think of having a viewpoint like that. I wasn't referring to NPD though. I mean the way people just generally use each other for validation, Which sounds like a narcassistic supply thing to me. It's not that people are not seen as separate. But that the desperate need for validation and desire to avoid difficult feelings blinds people to the suffering caused, and allows justification for poor behaviour. It's like a hunger that even when trying to be ethical can only be staved off so much before one needs to steal the proverbial sustenance from someone else. It's hard to imagine how one would stop this hunger. I view it somewhat differently….if you are unable to define yourself and treat yourself well…how the heck are you supposed to treat someone else well. There has to be an awareness of self…and then an awareness of treating yourself as valuable. If you are valuable (and we are not talking about self absorption but self respect) then other people are valuable as well. That is part of the problem with attachment insecurity….not being able to have a good core sense of self. I know this is going to sound super corny…..but have you even written down the things that make you happy? I remember years ago coming across a book of 1000 things to make you happy and as I read through them….I realized it was a list of things that made the author happy….so I started writing my own list. And in that process….I started to find myself….define myself. I know I come here and it seems I am constantly in a state of struggle…..but I am truly beginning to find me through my quest to define myself. You are more then labels and worries and fears…you are hope and wisdom and passion….and when you are able to broaden that picture to be from a more self caring vantage point…it will change how you view and treat others. I am glad we are both on this journey at this this time and I look so forward to see what the next steps are for you. Cyber hug. |
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Post by krolle on Dec 1, 2021 13:59:31 GMT
I'm trying to process all the things that you guys have said in the last few posts but all I can feel is anger, rage, hatred etc.
I must admit I have been struggling with talk therapy for the same reasons. I don't seem to be making much progress in that aspect because everything we talk about just makes me feel angry and then I can't absorb the information. It's like the therapy is a massive stressor for me I feel really agitated.
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Post by annieb on Dec 1, 2021 14:40:01 GMT
I'm trying to process all the things that you guys have said in the last few posts but all I can feel is anger, rage, hatred etc. I must admit I have been struggling with talk therapy for the same reasons. I don't seem to be making much progress in that aspect because everything we talk about just makes me feel angry and then I can't absorb the information. It's like the therapy is a massive stressor for me I feel really agitated. I feel like I’m familiar with this somewhat. It didn’t change fir me until I was really ready to let go. It helped to set up the therapy so that it was very convenient for me. That it’s been over the phone for me has been a life saver. It means I don’t have to fight my schedule and city traffic to get to a place. But I think the resentment and anger you feel is probably deeper. To some degree it’s your body resisting the status quo and what you think you may have to give up (in a way a part of your nature/ personality, you will relinquish), and mainly giving up control can simply be bewildering. But I think feeling the anger and agitating and acknowledging it and knowing what it is. If that’s not progress then what is ?! |
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Post by krolle on Dec 1, 2021 17:54:23 GMT
I'm trying to process all the things that you guys have said in the last few posts but all I can feel is anger, rage, hatred etc. I must admit I have been struggling with talk therapy for the same reasons. I don't seem to be making much progress in that aspect because everything we talk about just makes me feel angry and then I can't absorb the information. It's like the therapy is a massive stressor for me I feel really agitated. I feel like I’m familiar with this somewhat. It didn’t change fir me until I was really ready to let go. It helped to set up the therapy so that it was very convenient for me. That it’s been over the phone for me has been a life saver. It means I don’t have to fight my schedule and city traffic to get to a place. But I think the resentment and anger you feel is probably deeper. To some degree it’s your body resisting the status quo and what you think you may have to give up (in a way a part of your nature/ personality, you will relinquish), and mainly giving up control can simply be bewildering. But I think feeling the anger and agitating and acknowledging it and knowing what it is. If that’s not progress then what is ?! I'm not sure I see knowing what I'm feeling as overly progressive. What has changed for you since starting your therapy? |
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Post by krolle on Dec 1, 2021 17:56:45 GMT
What kind of therapy do you do ? Maybe you need a therapist who uses somatic experienccing tools and the safe and sound protocol combined with medicine maybe. youtu.be/baalpOg3Yts - the safe and sound protocol I just had a coincidence with a male friend with ADHD . Sometimes he can be so moody and aggressive. I cant handle him when he becomes like this and he knows. I have teached him some simple SE regulating tools (watertank exercise, sticking his thounge out 3 times in a row (it makes him yarn), singing, chanting, the woo sound, splashing ICE could water in his face, drinking ICE could water ect. For some playing a flute, playing a saxophone can also be helpfull. Walking while,orienting in the invorement can also be helpfull. Peter Levine working with anger - youtu.be/ByalBx85iC8You can maybe also shake your body and see if that helps. You can shake your shoulders as if you are shaking something off your back and shoulders. Or you can try my kick exercises ect. For some seeing a osteopath can also help. - anantaosteopathy.com/lets-sit-and-learn-the-primary-reflex-series/You can also try to take a towel and sqeeze it and hold it infront of you for af while feeling the strength in your arms. - Try this – find a towel or a jacket or something that you can roll up into a thickness about the same as your wrist or forearm – thin enough that you can get a really good grip, but thick enough that your hands have to work a bit to grasp it. Grab that roll with your palms facing down so that you are holding onto it like you would the handlebars of a bike. Now, let all that frustration, all that anger, all that ENERGY into your hands. SQUEEZE! TWIST! MORE! Squeeze and twist that towel as if it were a neck you were trying to snap. It’s ok – it’s just a towel, your not going to hurt it’s feelings. Do this in conjunction with snarl and letting out some sound. REALLY do it. Commit all that frustration to to the task as if your life depended on it. Cause it kinda does. You can also lift your upper lip and snarl - like if you a leopard or a lion Maybe amber has got some good tools as welll Talk therapy, from what I can work out mostly CBT type stuff. Which has always infuriated me, even when I was doing my own self help stuff by reading about it. I will try some of the somatic things you suggested. |
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Post by lovebunny on Dec 1, 2021 17:57:02 GMT
I know I'm late to the thread, but would love to relate my experience with adderall. I'm 49 year old female, HSP and AP attached, have been diagnosed with depression in the past. Currently, I'm prescribed a small (almost negligent) amount of wellbutrin to deal with that (75mg) Any more than that causes my hands to shake, anxiety, headache, etc.. When I was in my 20's I could handle SSRI's, but now even a small amount makes me unable to orgasm, so I don't mess with those.
Anyway, a couple of years ago, I started taking small amounts of Adderall recreationally, not as a party drug, but during the day when I wanted to get things done. I never considered I might have ADD--I did well in school and college (except math, lol.) I don't forget things, am very organized, etc. But I can't deny that there's a change in my wiring when on addy.
On addy, I seem much more able to access the logic part of my brain instead of just reacting on emotion. I seem to ruminate less, as I'm more able to turn my attention elsewhere. I become more motivated, less pessimistic, more confident and coherent, have more energy, and take more pleasure in completing tasks. Sometimes I'll feel anxious, edgy or tense, but the muscle tension on addy isn't even as bad as when I've tried higher doses of Wellbutrin.
The effects of addy seem to linger in my system about another day before a mild "crash." I'm highly sensitive to drugs, I can only ever handle anything in small dosages.
Maybe I hadn't realized how much my low-grade depression robbed me of the motivation necessary to succeed in this world. When one concentrates all one's energy into trying to find and keep love there's not much left for career, hobbies, and creative pursuits. Oh, and since I started getting more dopamine from addy and wellb, I have lost interest in cocaine, whereas previously, I used it at least a couple times a week.
Of course, there are other factors that might be helping create a new mind: Lots of self-help forums, journaling, reading, and I am actually in a good relationship with a secure partner.
I take a low dose of adderall, 5 to 7mg, once every 3 or 4 days. I take it early enough (never after 130pm) that I don't have trouble sleeping at night. I've been doing this for about 3 years.
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Post by krolle on Dec 1, 2021 18:19:16 GMT
I know I'm late to the thread, but would love to relate my experience with adderall. I'm 49 year old female, HSP and AP attached, have been diagnosed with depression in the past. Currently, I'm prescribed a small (almost negligent) amount of wellbutrin to deal with that (75mg) Any more than that causes my hands to shake, anxiety, headache, etc.. When I was in my 20's I could handle SSRI's, but now even a small amount makes me unable to orgasm, so I don't mess with those. Anyway, a couple of years ago, I started taking small amounts of Adderall recreationally, not as a party drug, but during the day when I wanted to get things done. I never considered I might have ADD--I did well in school and college (except math, lol.) I don't forget things, am very organized, etc. But I can't deny that there's a change in my wiring when on addy. On addy, I seem much more able to access the logic part of my brain instead of just reacting on emotion. I seem to ruminate less, as I'm more able to turn my attention elsewhere. I become more motivated, less pessimistic, more confident and coherent, have more energy, and take more pleasure in completing tasks. Sometimes I'll feel anxious, edgy or tense, but the muscle tension on addy isn't even as bad as when I've tried higher doses of Wellbutrin. The effects of addy seem to linger in my system about another day before a mild "crash." I'm highly sensitive to drugs, I can only ever handle anything in small dosages. Maybe I hadn't realized how much my low-grade depression robbed me of the motivation necessary to succeed in this world. When one concentrates all one's energy into trying to find and keep love there's not much left for career, hobbies, and creative pursuits. Oh, and since I started getting more dopamine from addy and wellb, I have lost interest in cocaine, whereas previously, I used it at least a couple times a week. Of course, there are other factors that might be helping create a new mind: Lots of self-help forums, journaling, reading, and I am actually in a good relationship with a secure partner. I take a low dose of adderall, 5 to 7mg, once every 3 or 4 days. I take it early enough (never after 130pm) that I don't have trouble sleeping at night. I've been doing this for about 3 years. Thankyou for chiming in. I appreciate the content of you're post. I must admit I have really enjoyed the ADHD medication so far. However I have stopped using it and will be taking a break from it for a week or 2. The main reason is joint pain. I have noticed since starting it the chostochondritis I get in my chest is back in force and my shoulders and hips are really hurting. I don't think this is exclusively caused by the medication per se. But my overall stress and depression levels lately are through the roof. I am unable to relax and so spend probably 90% of my time with my sympathetic nervous system on overdrive. Cortisol levels probably all out of whack plus poor sleep, poor diet and occasional drinking binge. The ADHD meds really ramp up your sympathetic nervous system and I think my body just can't take that extra stimulus right now. I should imagine increased inflammation levels are a side effect of being too much in fight/flight mode with little experience of rest and recuperation. I need to find some way of chilling out in my down time to balance things out before I throw in what is basically a chemical accelerant. Also, do you ever experience any feelings of shame when using the drugs? I know I do. But shame is a go to feeling for me so that's not surprising. They are very similar chemically to cocaine. So whilst I feel great on them I can't shake the feeling I'm "cheating". like who wouldn't feel great on them? Who wouldn't be productive and confident? etc. What does that day about me I need amphetamines to operate at a level comparable to a "normal" person. If I succeed in aspects of my life was it me, or the drugs? I have been given an anti depressant. But am very reluctant and to be honest terrified to take them. The doctor says see how the ADHD stuff works out for a while before starting to see the different effects. |
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Post by annieb on Dec 1, 2021 18:24:22 GMT
I feel like I’m familiar with this somewhat. It didn’t change fir me until I was really ready to let go. It helped to set up the therapy so that it was very convenient for me. That it’s been over the phone for me has been a life saver. It means I don’t have to fight my schedule and city traffic to get to a place. But I think the resentment and anger you feel is probably deeper. To some degree it’s your body resisting the status quo and what you think you may have to give up (in a way a part of your nature/ personality, you will relinquish), and mainly giving up control can simply be bewildering. But I think feeling the anger and agitating and acknowledging it and knowing what it is. If that’s not progress then what is ?! I'm not sure I see knowing what I'm feeling as overly progressive. What has changed for you since starting your therapy? There are a lot of changes; almost too many to list. The most recent one - for example I was hardly phased by the text convos I had with the guy I’m setting up a date with. There were some misunderstandings and he is somebody who lacks a filter somewhat (and so do I), but I didn’t immediately go to defensive place. I would normally be quite sensitive. And now I’m feeling it’s more fun to talk to him than anything else. I would say my overall sense of self respect and self esteem is higher, I take much less sh*t from people and get over things quicker. This happened very early in therapy, but I’ve waivered a bunch and when a romantic prospect enters a picture it all usually goes a little sideways, So I have yet to find out if therapy is “working” here. Another big change is that I enjoy my alone time so much. I used to be alone a lot anyway, but I was longing for Company, and now I feel like I can set up company whenever I want one. But as you saw on my thread I stumbled quite a bit with an insecurely attached person; so there is still ways to go. I’ve forgiven my parents. I think really seeing them in a light of how much they struggled and sacrificed and that they did their best, flaws and all. My relationship with my sister is the best it has ever been, and I talk to my cousins regularly and I’m a fixture in the gatherings now, where o used to isolate a lot. I share a lot more with my friends and lean on them. I ask for help. I ask questions. At work I sense a bully a mile away and I don’t wonder why they don’t like me and try to people please them. I just avoid them and grey rock. My confidence is pretty much like night and day and I’m quite expressive and extroverted. Maybe not verbally, necessarily, but really present. |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 1, 2021 20:23:50 GMT
krolle, do you think feeling shame around medication is another way to twist into your distrust of "other" while also feeding into the narrative that you're not good enough on your own? Does recognizing either of those feelings, and challenging that they're even true (because the feelings are real but their application is not as it's not about meds, it's about something ingrained in you by someone else earlier) help?
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Post by krolle on Dec 8, 2021 4:10:09 GMT
One thing I'v been musing on lately is the role of fantasy in fearful avoidance (or perhaps insecurity in general).
One of the things that causes shut down I think is when the fantasy (which can never be lived up to long term) is dispelled.
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