dexter
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Post by dexter on Oct 5, 2021 10:45:47 GMT
Yes, I know about anger patterns. It shows up only between us. It's not our "life pattern". I am very tolerant person, she is as well. She changes under circumstances I've mentioned before. And I am bursting with anger when I am fed up with her deactivation strategies, ignoring me, or acting selfish in relationship. But now it's much better on my side, really so much, because I've learned to not take things so personally, acknowledging it's really not about me.
Why we're spending so much time together? Well..really not that much. Usually two up to three days in a week and one, sometimes two days during weekend. OK, that's really much when we're not a couple officially. On the surface level we have a nice excuse - we raise child together, I am present in her kid's life since beggining. So she asks me to bring him to preschool in the morning three times a week (so she can go to her work on time), asking me to stay with him, to help her in everyday matters, plans activities like going to kid's theatre, etc. And I am doing the same. I suppose it is a way to feel safe, be together but with a safe distance, because we're bonded and completely losing other person would be (and in fact was) unbearable for both of us. Yes, we both fear of abandonment, but I am much more conscious about it (she denies it, but she never let me go, and I ever saw her panicking when I seemed to leave for good).
Yes, she has lost respect for me. But again, I think it depends on her level of deactivation. When deactivated, withdrawn, she shows signs of no respects and she admits it. And she feels guilty when she shows signs of vulnerability and says she don't want to act that way and don't want to hurt me, because I am so good for her. You may say "too good", but it's just a matter of inbalance and inconsistency on her side, because she can really be caregiving and supportive.
Saturday morning I left for a delegation. Came back yesterday evening. I was working intensively, which was good for me, because I felt very anxious about her recent deactivation. We had no contact, apart from one video call from her son, because he missed me. Today morning I came to her to bring her son to a preschool. She was different. Calm, cool, smiling, just nice. Different body language. And of course my anxiety went down, I feel good. She soothed me and I wasn't able to sooth myself during my delegation. Had so much work to do.
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dexter
Junior Member
Posts: 98
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Post by dexter on Oct 5, 2021 10:55:33 GMT
Maybe she is testing you, to find out if you are strong enough, so that she can trust you ? (at the instinktive level most women wants to feel protected) Are there enough polarity between you - between the feminine and masculine ?
We are entering terra incognita. I am identifying myself as masculine, and my girfriend and exes told me the same. I am a testosterone guy, maybe even sometimes too confident and dominant - which she now perceive as a flaw (but loved me for being a real man that she felt safe with).
Yes, I recognize her as very feminine. Delicate. But there is a contradiction - she sometimes looks like she would need help and care, but underlines her emotional and life independence, being scared of dependency.
And about that respect - I can assume that everyone in a relationship with an avoidant experiences lack of respect, especially during deactivation phase/withdrawal/freeze mode. They become selfish, not thinking about other person feelings. It's just how they cope with their own anxiety.
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Post by anne12 on Oct 5, 2021 11:23:24 GMT
ha, ha - this made me smile....  - ....."Well..really not that much. Usually two up to three days in a week and one, sometimes two days during weekend. OK, that's really much when we're not a couple officially. ..."
"On the surface level we have a nice excuse - we raise child together, I am present in her kid's life since beggining."- sometimes nice excuses wont lead you anywhere... Setting boundaries with fa people can (sometimes) be a good thing. Its also a very masculine thing to set and keep boundaries and not to overfunction. Or put your so called relationship on pause until you both know more about weather you want to be a couple or not... You can also set a deadline in your head, which can help you to calm your nerveussystem jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/2799/feminine-masculine-energy-health-drive |
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dexter
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Posts: 98
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Post by dexter on Oct 5, 2021 12:15:43 GMT
It made me laugh as well  It's hard to pause that relationship completely. Mind our excuse We have a deadline. We will go to couples counselling to take a closer look. And it all depends on her. If she will believe that it is not a compatibility issue, but our attachment styles sabotaging us, and she will commit to do her work and stay in therapy, than we will give it a shot. If she rejects the att theory and will believe her personal therapist (or herself), than...well...I will just leave for good, than she will feel relief, than panic, than reach me, than we will honeymoon and life goes on. Just joking. I hope so.
I've read your link and I must say I am less leaning feminine than she is leaning masculine. According to the post, she is very feminine and I recognize her in that way totally - but what she lacks is that she is no histeric, no drama queen, supresses and dismisses her emotions&feelings, acting undependent. I put that on her avoidant style. I fit the masculine description as well. My partner praised it, but it changed - she even says I am too dominant and too much on controlling and decision making. Too confident, too arguing and debating with people (I love it). I responded that...I am the same man you loved and praised my masculinity. What I lack is setting boundaries. If I set them, it is too late and I am setting them with anger. I wasn't setting boundaries because I was afraid to loose her. But that masculine&feminine thing doesn't hit or fit me I think. Or just don't get it. |
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Post by annieb on Oct 5, 2021 12:43:42 GMT
Honey, if someone left an empty bottle of wine in my fridge. There would be no future.
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dexter
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Posts: 98
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Post by dexter on Oct 5, 2021 12:58:30 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 13:04:32 GMT
dexter Are you yourself saying you have an argumentative personality, and that you enjoy arguing with people?
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dexter
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Posts: 98
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Post by dexter on Oct 5, 2021 13:19:59 GMT
dexter Are you yourself saying you have an argumentative personality, and that you enjoy arguing with people?
Are you familiar with Myers&Briggs personality tests? I am ENTP, The Debater (Extroverted, Intuitive, Thinking, Perceiving).
I enjoy discussions, not fighting nor conflicting, do not get me wrong.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 13:49:29 GMT
dexter Are you yourself saying you have an argumentative personality, and that you enjoy arguing with people?
Are you familiar with Myers&Briggs personality tests? I am ENTP, The Debater (Extroverted, Intuitive, Thinking, Perceiving).
I enjoy discussions, not fighting nor conflicting, do not get me wrong.
Do you think she enjoys debating, with others or with you? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 14:15:50 GMT
I think you should approach this relationship only from the coparenting angle. Neither of you are in a place to be in a relationship and you should both be single before you make any significant progress in both your therapies and couples therapy. The reason I’m saying this is because you will be in perpetual pain, when she withdraws and rest assured she will keep doing this if you choose to participate in this dance. You need to understand where you end and she begins, and you’re not understanding that. And since you’re not understanding it you will keep exposing yourself to this pain compulsively. I feel your pain through my phone screen. That’s how palpable this is. I feel your pain and then your attempt to overcome it by a superiority moment of analyzing her. Figure out a way to un mesh and definitely keep going to your individual therapy. Having sex with her was a bad move on your part. For you. You may never be in a healthy relationship with her and that’s a fact you need to learn to accept. You keep thinking you can change her and that therapy will bring the results you seek. While it will bring results - trust me - the results will be different from your expectations.
Yes, you're right. I had same though after that night on fire. Too fast, too early, too dangerous for both of us. Why we had sex? Erotic tension was there for some time, it just happen, we started to cuddle on sofa, and...well...my libido is usually at very high level and she turns me on like no one else before. And it was clear to me she is open to make love.
But you are not right thinking that I want to analyze her. I just see the old patterns, a cliche. And I was almost sure that having sex will occur in a catastrophe. What I do now is to try to analyze myself. Anne12 askes a good question: is my att style affects her? Yes, it is time to be honest with myself - I still act AP, building up frustration. And I think I am again jealous - with her putting attention to mom, friends, kid (!!! - yes, and I feel shame of my feelings).
She came home and I just left. I need to drink. Alone. We will see each other tomorrow, we're going to kid's hair stylist and than planned to go to restaurant.
Anne12, thank you for your links. I am going to read them this evening.
In my opinion, the dysfunction in the relationship FROM YOUR SIDE AS WELL, creates incompatibility and she questions compatibility realistically, and with validity. You seem to think that if she just comes round to your way of thinking, and changes herself, and adopts your thinking about attachment theory, you will do better. However, it may be that her complaints about traits you have, are legitimate in terms of personality conflicts. I think it's kind of arrogant of you to dismiss her complaints as deactivation only- she may wrestle with some things about you that she sees two sides of- positive and negative aspects of what ultimately annoys her. The debating for instance. You may very well come off as controlling- I mean, you do here, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread. You even admit to being manipulative- so why not give her some respect and stop brushing her observations off because you're insecure about them? I don't know that it matters, this is the typical trap. It just never ceases to amaze me how an AP can rationalize to no end and swirl around analyzing their partner's dysfunction. at length while occasionally admitting they are seriously AP (and you yourself need to drink alone.... that is very unhealthy coping on your part- why not stick to your own issues- they are significant and you don't get to blame anybody for them). Keep in mind the greatest good will come from changing yourself no matter what she does. You spend a lot of time reacting it seems, and wishing she were different. YOU can be different it just takes being open to things as they are instead of how you'd like them to be. That's life, especially when it comes down to other people and how they show up. You can't control it. |
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dexter
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Posts: 98
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Post by dexter on Oct 5, 2021 14:21:08 GMT
Do you think she enjoys debating, with others or with you?
No, she doesn't. She's a listener. She enjoys listening to me, sometimes asking me about geopolitics or history. Plus, we share same views on politics or values. BUT...when we are in a group of friends and we are debating, she finds me being offensive or too confident in my views and theories. She is very, if not too much, aware of other people boundaries. Which is very odd to me, because she very easily crosses mine. She get out of it very pretty I must admit - she crosses them, because she feels very comfortable with the fact that I won't reject her |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 14:22:19 GMT
Do you think she enjoys debating, with others or with you?
No, she doesn't. She's a listener. She enjoys listening to me, sometimes asking me about geopolitics or history. Plus, we share same views on politics or values. BUT...when we are in a group of friends and we are debating, she finds me being offensive or too confident in my views and theories. She is very, if not too much, aware of other people boundaries. Which is very odd to me, because she very easily crosses mine. She get out of it very pretty I must admit - she crosses them, because she feels very comfortable with the fact that I won't reject her Hmm. |
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dexter
Junior Member
Posts: 98
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Post by dexter on Oct 5, 2021 14:38:11 GMT
In my opinion, the dysfunction in the relationship FROM YOUR SIDE AS WELL, creates incompatibility and she questions compatibility realistically, and with validity. You seem to think that if she just comes round to your way of thinking, and changes herself, and adopts your thinking about attachment theory, you will do better. However, it may be that her complaints about traits you have, are legitimate in terms of personality conflicts. I think it's kind of arrogant of you to dismiss her complaints as deactivation only- she may wrestle with some things about you that she sees two sides of- positive and negative aspects of what ultimately annoys her. The debating for instance. You may very well come off as controlling- I mean, you do here, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread. You even admit to being manipulative- so why not give her some respect and stop brushing her observations off because you're insecure about them? I don't know that it matters, this is the typical trap. It just never ceases to amaze me how an AP can rationalize to no end and swirl around analyzing their partner's dysfunction. at length while occasionally admitting they are seriously AP (and you yourself need to drink alone.... that is very unhealthy coping on your part- why not stick to your own issues- they are significant and you don't get to blame anybody for them). Keep in mind the greatest good will come from changing yourself no matter what she does. You spend a lot of time reacting it seems, and wishing she were different. YOU can be different it just takes being open to things as they are instead of how you'd like them to be. That's life, especially when it comes down to other people and how they show up. You can't control it.
You're giving me a good view on avoidant perspective, which I appreciate. Like a cold shower and reminder where I stand and where she is.
I don't know if we will do better, but I strongly believe that attachment theory gives us so many answers on our long-term unhealthy dynamics, hot&cold relationship, strong chemistry, etc. It's not MY WAY of thinking. It's a theory and it fits to us perfectly. I am no therapist, I wrote that is up to her. What I can is just show her something and propose att theory specialist. You can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink. She is curious about attachment styles and her dysfunctions in creating long-lasting relationships in her life, and thats her words.
Complaints about traits and personality incompatibility are OK to me. But not in this case. She's very inconsistent, what is annoying her today, tomorrow can be sweet. I am 41, been in some relationships, and that craziness is something new for me. Another craziness is exagerrating dishwasher problem to a level that creates a conflict that puts our relationship on the verge of break-up. And even if I am changing my behaviours (i.e. learning how to put dishes in a proper way, haha), she will find something new. And yes, it happens only when she is on a way to withdraw.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 15:00:00 GMT
In my opinion, the dysfunction in the relationship FROM YOUR SIDE AS WELL, creates incompatibility and she questions compatibility realistically, and with validity. You seem to think that if she just comes round to your way of thinking, and changes herself, and adopts your thinking about attachment theory, you will do better. However, it may be that her complaints about traits you have, are legitimate in terms of personality conflicts. I think it's kind of arrogant of you to dismiss her complaints as deactivation only- she may wrestle with some things about you that she sees two sides of- positive and negative aspects of what ultimately annoys her. The debating for instance. You may very well come off as controlling- I mean, you do here, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread. You even admit to being manipulative- so why not give her some respect and stop brushing her observations off because you're insecure about them? I don't know that it matters, this is the typical trap. It just never ceases to amaze me how an AP can rationalize to no end and swirl around analyzing their partner's dysfunction. at length while occasionally admitting they are seriously AP (and you yourself need to drink alone.... that is very unhealthy coping on your part- why not stick to your own issues- they are significant and you don't get to blame anybody for them). Keep in mind the greatest good will come from changing yourself no matter what she does. You spend a lot of time reacting it seems, and wishing she were different. YOU can be different it just takes being open to things as they are instead of how you'd like them to be. That's life, especially when it comes down to other people and how they show up. You can't control it.
You're giving me a good view on avoidant perspective, which I appreciate. Like a cold shower and reminder where I stand and where she is.
I don't know if we will do better, but I strongly believe that attachment theory gives us so many answers on our long-term unhealthy dynamics, hot&cold relationship, strong chemistry, etc. It's not MY WAY of thinking. It's a theory and it fits to us perfectly. I am no therapist, I wrote that is up to her. What I can is just show her something and propose att theory specialist. You can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink. She is curious about attachment styles and her dysfunctions in creating long-lasting relationships in her life, and thats her words.
Complaints about traits and personality incompatibility are OK to me. But not in this case. She's very inconsistent, what is annoying her today, tomorrow can be sweet. I am 41, been in some relationships, and that craziness is something new for me. Another craziness is exagerrating dishwasher problem to a level that creates a conflict that puts our relationship on the verge of break-up. And even if I am changing my behaviours (i.e. learning how to put dishes in a proper way, haha), she will find something new. And yes, it happens only when she is on a way to withdraw.
I don't think it's avoidant to be incompatible with dysfunction. In your case- keep in mind you are so far "compatible" with this "craziness". What I mean is, you recognize it and go along with it and try to change her. Both of you are wishy washy as heck- that's not an avoidants perspective. I wouldn't be with someone who threatened the relationship over a dishwasher incident. And, I also don't think it's down to a dishwasher incident by the way. Big things come out in small ways. Does my perspective sound avoidant to you? Maybe it's a good deal more secure than grinding along being mistreated, as you are? Being bandied about with hot and cold behavior? Is the idea that this is unworkable truly avoidant to you? Is the idea that if only she would change, it would be better, secure in your estimation? Is it AP? I'm asking because you seem to have lots ideas and labels that don't have any traction or power when the rubber meets the road, because as you said, it's all cliche. Circles. That's incompatibility in my eyes. |
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Post by annieb on Oct 5, 2021 15:17:02 GMT
dexter, It seems like it’s very hard for you to accept her choices, assumptions, opinion, words, behavior, truth. And you know why that is, right? It’s because you think they all say something about you, and if you change them it will say something else about you. So you’ve outsourced how you see yourself to how she sees you so that you can change how she sees you and then it will be how you see yourself. We’ve all done it. Heck, I just did it with my last relationship.
But all it is and does it’s is prolonging the time that we are not centered and do not hold our esteem within ourselves. Always. Our practice (daily and hourly) is to love ourselves, to hold our esteem within ourselves and to be able to validate ourselves all the time. And if we waiver we have to examine why and get back to center. It’s one of the hardest things to do. That’s why we avoid it. Who wants to work THAT hard. It seems it’s impossible.
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It's hard to pause that relationship completely. Mind our excuse 