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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2021 17:04:20 GMT
dexter, I see a strong pattern of you disregarding her. You don't seem to see things she says, does, thinks, feels, as valid. Your perspective is the most important one to you and you seem to invalidate her a lot in spite of how you think you come across. My relationship didn't get better (and truly it was NEVER the toxic trap!!) until each of us held the others views as important as our own. Respect, both ways, not continually knowing better than the other. Not continually seeing one as superior, one inferior- one healthy and one sick. We have a partnership, not a war. Read the post I made sharing Jeb's take on AP. You are well versed in how dysfunctional a DA can be and defensive about yourself even if you admit your shortcomings. Really take it in- maybe she has a point. If she is not the right one for you , you still have to get a handle on the reality fo your toxicity, or you will repeat it. That has nothing to do with her and you have no place trying to show her the error of her ways. Nobody here is saying she's healthy. But you are the only person you have control over and you try a lot of things to control and manipulate her. Nothing good happens until you stop that. There is no other conversation to have about it in my opinion- you aren't healthy enough for a relationship and this relationship reflects that.
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 4, 2021 17:12:55 GMT
I agree with you that we lack respect on both sides. And I concentrate on her lack of respect towards me. Not on me disregarding her. I know that. I suppose it can be because we both lack healthy boundaries. Since month I try to learn her perspective, learn her att style, learn her needs, stay away from my pain defining communication. We hurt ourselves a lot. I really tried (me me me) to set ourselves to heal that, because it is really tough to split definately, apart from reasons. |
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Post by annieb on Sept 4, 2021 17:22:22 GMT
“10 days of no contact will help me to ease down my anxiety and look at our situation from more sober perspective. I need to concentrate on my job, daily activities, hobby and friends.” One should be able to be in a relationship and also be able to focus on these things. I agree. I proposed that a month ago. She didn't respond directly. Not saying yes, not saying no. So in fact we stay in relationship, but without intimacy and commitment.“ What would you call that type of relationship? I assume you’re doing that to remain in the child’s life, since you consider him your son? I’m having a hard time understanding your motivation. I need safe distance for my own health.” I would say absolutely if she showed clear signs of abuse towards you. But I believe a lot of is your projection. Is todays morning "bread crisis" (lol) a sign of abuse? Are deactivation strategies not abusive? She presented full spectrum of them.
You are correct that deactivation strategies and stonewalling are absolutely abusive and I’m sorry you’re going through that. I don’t know how you do it. It would drive me out of there at the first sign (I’m also 41, and the last relationship I had was with a stonewaller, and I do not wish that on anyone).
“And it will help her I think.” It’s controlling of you to assume this. You need to ask her. I bet the answer is very different. Ask her. “She reads a lot about attachment theory, she is confused, maybe bit scared. She needs space, need to proceed slowly, I think.” Did she say she needed space? “I know her a bit. She needs time.” It’s you, who needs time. You’re projecting again. Ask her if she needs time. Many times she told me during crisis or "deactivating" that she needs space and time to react. To get in touch, to regulate. She teach me that.“ Well, this changes my previous statement somewhat, because she is aware of her behavior, that’s very different than an unaware stonewaller. She’s communicated how she handles conflict and your job would be to either accept that and continue the relationship or if it is a dealbreaker, call it quits. This information is not for you to appeal to her to change how she deals with things. Yes, that boy is not my stepson. But question is...what makes a bond between step-father and kid? Marriage or genuine care since he was two yrs old?” Again you say what makes a bond between a step father and a kid. Obviously time spent and shared and care and love shown. But he is not your stepson. It’s borderline cruel to keep developing this attachment without a commitment, it’s cruel to her and to him. Fact is that is a terrible situation. We are two immature people that had no responsibility, thus she is a great mother, and I am recognised (by her, my friends, family) as a good "step-father". I do not put away blame from me, but it was she that formed dynamics of my relationship with her kid. She let me be a "father". She put tons of trust in how I care about him and how we both spent time. Bond has developed. It happened. It is a huge concern for me, but that how things are. And it is breaking my heart.Well then, this is your son as you’ve assumed the role of the father. So at this point if you leave the mother and him, you will have abandoned your child. And if you stay with her in the unhealthy dynamic and attempts to change her (to disrespect her essentially), especially with leaving her and then coming back, you will teach your son how to become an FA essentially. The only person you can change is you and it is imperative that you change, because you really do not have any other choice. You have to step up to the plate so to speak. Lead by example, and be the father you need to be. My advice is to from now on treat her with deep respect. If you can’t then examine why you can’t. My wild guess is because your fear stands in your way. Then explore your fear in therapy and I would suggest at least weekly sessions. Stop analyzing and condescending on her (this is very DA behavior even though you identify as AP), but to be honest all insecure types disrespect based on fear. Stop manipulating and being passive aggressive and start directly communicating and if you are angry share that with her but first examine if you’re projecting unto her (probably projecting your mother’s qualities onto her would be my uneducated guess), and then with yourself in check communicate directly and kindly. Be kind and loving and accept that life isn’t always what we think it should be or what it appears. Sometimes you have to suspend your disbelief. And grow major balls. There is a little man looking up to you, so raise him like he deserves to be and he will go so much further in life if he respects women and not fears them. And there is a big difference. So teach him such. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2021 17:30:31 GMT
I agree with you that we lack respect on both sides. And I concentrate on her lack of respect towards me. Not on me disregarding her. I know that. I suppose it can be because we both lack healthy boundaries. Since month I try to learn her perspective, learn her att style, learn her needs, stay away from my pain defining communication. We hurt ourselves a lot. I really tried (me me me) to set ourselves to heal that, because it is really tough to split definately, apart from reasons. And I do empathize with your sadness, the grief and frustration. My children have been affected by my relationship history. It's excruciating. To break the heart of a child as our own hearts are broken. I have been in a place in the past of not knowing how to go on with the mess I had co-created, and I stayed in a relationship too long because the thought of breaking the children by ending was unbearable. There is simply no easy answer, it's tragic. It takes so much more than a month to understand it all. And; to change internal patterns takes a lot of time and cannot happen when the dynamic still is present day to day. The pressures are too much. My partner and I took a break to work on ourselves and the relationship and it proved extremely helpful- but we were not in infancy of self awareness. So, it's a different situation. You know what I needed from him? To acknowledge my complaint without minimizing or rationalizing and defending. Here, you are asking for clarity from her when she told you exactly what she's angry about. That gets so frustrating and maddening (yes truly ANGERING) Each partner has to be able to humbly and willingly, with an open heart and without the need to defend, when they see that they are impacting their partner, acknowledge it -respectfully. It doesn't mean the other has no wrong, no responsibility/. But empathizing with her when she is angry is not impossible or unreasonable. That's the thing. You are wrong about a lot of things as you can see... but you assume that you have the right view on her anger and frustration. If she was activated in anger yeah she's gonna be a tornado. She told you why. And today you are politely asking "Is there something under the surface?" Totally acting like she didn't tell you straight up what pisses her off. It's maddening behavior. How is she supposed to answer? I bet she's exasperated trying to communicate with you just as you are with her. None of this denies your true anguish. But this deep sadness is the price we all pay when we behave like the children we once were. True of all of us. Just the price we way till we grow up. I don't like to demean the process like that but we are developmentally delayed and the short phrase to describe it is we have to develop, mature. Grow up. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2021 17:36:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2021 18:04:47 GMT
Eating the last of a staple food in a house with kids can be a big deal especially during times of stress like illness, having to get ready for work, limited time, can't run to the store. it's actually a thing in my house where we alert the others if we eat the last of something or ask if someone else wants some, just a courtesy that avoids surprise shortages.
It impacted her. You don't have to agree with the degree. But it grinds her gears. That's a struggle that couples have to acknowledge and work out. Lots of stuff like that where conflict triggers the deep issues and here she named that issue.
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Post by alexandra on Sept 4, 2021 18:21:17 GMT
dexter, if there's no respect, combined with individual fear, that is a recipe for mutual abuse. I don't even see how you can have a relationship that doesn't include abuse if there's no respect. Without respect, you do not see each other as individuals or human beings, you see each other as people-shaped objects who can do something for you and make you feel a certain way, extensions of yourself. Part of that lack of respect comes from lack of respect towards yourself. How do you respect others if you do not respect yourself. And part comes from lack of healthy boundaries. In terms of the bread, why did you cling to it so hard? Fine, she was cold for a few minutes. But her son sounds extremely ill, of course she'd get very worried and stressed over that, triggering her poor coping mechanisms for stress (symptomatic in every insecure type). This wasn't necessarily about you, you obviously know it wasn't about 3 pieces of bread, but she's frustrated that life is not within her tight control, she's worried about her son, and you have a history of inconsistency that she can also fixate on to think less about how worried she may be about her child. People sometimes get angry and overwhelmed at each other, and then in a healthy relationship they get over it. You should not accept abuse from a partner when they're overwhelmed, but we've already gone over why that happens. You need to stop with AP protest behaviors, build mutual trust, build trust in yourself, stop projecting on her and see her for who she is and accept her that way, have healthy boundaries, and THEN maybe respect will start to follow. But these are all complicated and time-consuming steps. Ultimately, this situation is extraordinarily toxic and you shouldn't be trying to rebuild anything with her right now because neither of you are ready to be healthy. And her son is learning all the dysfunction as a result. If you really want to take a break with her, which you absolutely should while you focus on getting your own help without her triggering you further (whether she means to or not, you will trigger yourself interpreting her), perhaps you can talk to her first about either how to talk to her son about it or work out that even if you're on break with her how a continued relationship with her son would look. Like, you agree on what days you keep seeing him, you don't use him as a pawn or excuse to stay connected to her, and you only speak to her about logistics of spending time with him but otherwise give each other complete space. I am not sure if you are really aware of how toxic and damaging this entire situation and dynamic is for everyone involved, or if you're verbally acknowledging you know in an attempt (and as an excuse) to then say if you just keep working on it... then you can stay connected and not actually do the heavy lifting required on your own. While not really seeming to take any of the advice here on what you actually need to do to change anything, fix anything, or heal your own trauma independent of her. I understand that is harsh, but this combined dynamic is really that dysfunctional and bad for both of you, and her child, and you're both strongly contributing to it. But a lot is on your side, as you're not acknowledging what people are telling you and still fixating on her (like you asked what if you get bored and I told you exactly what you'd need to do and how that goes and what the honest truth would be to answer her question, and you skipped over it). This is not only painful for you -- it's extremely painful for her as well. Forget trying to get her to change so that you feel better... don't you want to work on your side so that SHE feels safer? Don't you want someone you love to be happier and not spinning around in this circle, as unhappy as you? She isn't the one making you unhappy here, you're doing it yourself. And if you work on yourself and then try again and you're not making each other happy, then it's because the relationship doesn't work due to incompatibility.
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Post by annieb on Sept 4, 2021 18:51:13 GMT
krolle I’ve been called out on this forum many times and I certainly lack bedside manner. But I’m not a psychologist and I do this purposefully. It’s because I respect the OP and don’t want to waste their time. To present it in any other way for me feels manipulative. I do not manipulate forum members, I call out behaviors they themselves are not aware of or maybe lost sight of and I want it be as direct as possible. That’s how I’m in real life as well, but I haven’t always been this way. I used to people please to my own detriment and now I do not anymore barring the compulsion of wanting to help still.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2021 19:11:52 GMT
krolle I’ve been called out on this forum many times and I certainly lack bedside manner. But I’m not a psychologist and I do this purposefully. It’s because I respect the OP and don’t want to waste their time. To present it in any other way for me feels manipulative. I do not manipulate forum members, I call out behaviors they themselves are not aware of or maybe lost sight of and I want it be as direct as possible. That’s how I’m in real life as well, but I haven’t always been this way. I used to people please to my own detriment and now I do not anymore barring the compulsion of wanting to help still. Well said. |
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Post by anne12 on Sept 5, 2021 8:14:17 GMT
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 5, 2021 8:51:07 GMT
Thank you! That is so much (not all) about me and how I behave in relationship with an avoidant.
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Post by anne12 on Sept 5, 2021 9:16:26 GMT
dexter Argh - I think I deleted my question about if the two of you have talked about what you guys think that “ fully avaliable” really means…? And that it can be uncouncious… For aps it can be when they have to stop the signal cry and have to recieve, which can trigger their attatchment wounds Titration (little by little) is always good to practise when you have to take in love, so that your nerveussystem dosent get overwhelmed… Fully avaliable can e.g mean: When do the ambivalent typically leave a relationship: Typically after 3 months, 2 or 3 years, 5 years, 10 years. When the other person has become fully avaliable. E.g. When their partner say “I love you” when moving in together, when buying a House together, when getting married, when having children ect.
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 5, 2021 9:22:44 GMT
Well then, this is your son as you’ve assumed the role of the father. So at this point if you leave the mother and him, you will have abandoned your child. And if you stay with her in the unhealthy dynamic and attempts to change her (to disrespect her essentially), especially with leaving her and then coming back, you will teach your son how to become an FA essentially. [...]Stop manipulating and being passive aggressive and start directly communicating and if you are angry share that with her but first examine if you’re projecting unto her (probably projecting your mother’s qualities onto her would be my uneducated guess), and then with yourself in check communicate directly and kindly. Be kind and loving and accept that life isn’t always what we think it should be or what it appears. Sometimes you have to suspend your disbelief. And grow major balls. There is a little man looking up to you, so raise him like he deserves to be and he will go so much further in life if he respects women and not fears them. And there is a big difference. So teach him such.
I do not consider leaving him when he is 5 years old and have such a bond with me. Such scenario frightens me a lot. What I consider is leaving her, but not leaving him. Be always available and meet him once or twice a week on a neutral ground, doing things that we like. I don't want to sound dramatic, but pain of seeing her is the price I will need to pay, if we can't build healthy relationship with his mother.
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Stopping being manipulative in getting my needs fulfilled, communicating directly my feelings, trying to be kind, loving and switching my emotional focus from myself to her is what I try to do. But sometimes my autopilot turns on, when triggered by her avoidancy. Especially I get triggered when she is shutting down and stonewalling me, just like at this very moment. She responded me via text late night, after 12hrs. It was so rational and cold, no emotions involved. I called her today morning, trying to settle things, even apologising for overreacting (which I did, her coldness during that bread crisis triggered me). She cut talk after 3 minutes, leaving me in the middle of what I tried to communicate. And she cancelled our meeting today. So total shut down.
There are lot of conflicts in relationships and I find that natural. But thing is to cope them in secure way. What is above, isn't secure at all. And I see my own faults, tried to communicate them, but she used that to put blame only on my side of dynamics.
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 5, 2021 9:28:56 GMT
dexter Argh - I think I deleted my question about if the two of you have talked about what you guys think that “ fully avaliable” really means…? And that it can be uncouncious… For aps it can be when they have to stop the signal cry and have to recieve, which can trigger their attatchment wounds Titration (little by little) is always good to practise when you have to take in love, so that your nerveussystem dosent get overwhelmed… Fully avaliable can e.g mean: When do the ambivalent typically leave a relationship: Typically after 3 months, 2 or 3 years, 5 years, 10 years. When the other person has become fully avaliable. E.g. When their partner say “I love you” when moving in together, when buying a House together, when getting married, when having children ect.
I've tried. Many times before learning att styles. She recognised my definition of availability as neediness, or agreeing, but stated that she just can't be fully available, trying to rationalise it or just saying she is not capable of close relationship. Or agreeing, doing steps towards availability and than dismiss. Just like yesterday. Before that "bread crisis" we managed to be close together, kids problem with preschool, her stress which I helped her to ease down (that was nice to hear that), and kid's illness - that made us closer.
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 5, 2021 9:47:53 GMT
In terms of the bread, why did you cling to it so hard? Because that just triggered me. What I felt was abandonment, rejection. And all of my fears showed up and I've started to project it on her. I was trying to explain it to her.Ultimately, this situation is extraordinarily toxic and you shouldn't be trying to rebuild anything with her right now because neither of you are ready to be healthy. And her son is learning all the dysfunction as a result. If you really want to take a break with her, which you absolutely should while you focus on getting your own help without her triggering you further (whether she means to or not, you will trigger yourself interpreting her), perhaps you can talk to her first about either how to talk to her son about it or work out that even if you're on break with her how a continued relationship with her son would look. Like, you agree on what days you keep seeing him, you don't use him as a pawn or excuse to stay connected to her, and you only speak to her about logistics of spending time with him but otherwise give each other complete space. He is too small to discuss with him our split. He wouldn't understand and probably assume it is his fault. Children up to age 6-7 are very egocentric, and that is a natural state in that age. Whats more, feeling stable with caregivers is crucial to that age. I am event manager and I do travel a lot, so it is natural for him that I am not home frequently. So we talk about this and decided mutually that we can leave things as they are, meeting him once or twice a week, if our relationship can't be healthy.
We are aware how our relationship can affect him, so we try very hard to give him safe and stable space. He is not witnessing our conflicts, but maybe unconsciously notice her shutdowns and my anxiety, and feels that something is not right between us. But! I think we are very stable caregivers, and he is very happy, open, secure, loving boy, without any attachment issues, as far as we can see.
I understand that is harsh, but this combined dynamic is really that dysfunctional and bad for both of you, and her child, and you're both strongly contributing to it. But a lot is on your side, as you're not acknowledging what people are telling you and still fixating on her (like you asked what if you get bored and I told you exactly what you'd need to do and how that goes and what the honest truth would be to answer her question, and you skipped over it). This is not only painful for you -- it's extremely painful for her as well. Forget trying to get her to change so that you feel better... don't you want to work on your side so that SHE feels safer? Don't you want someone you love to be happier and not spinning around in this circle, as unhappy as you? She isn't the one making you unhappy here, you're doing it yourself. And if you work on yourself and then try again and you're not making each other happy, then it's because the relationship doesn't work due to incompatibility. I did not respond, because I am struggling with time posting on the forum. But it doesn't mean I do not take into consideration EVERY advice and point of view.
I answered her exactly the same way you proposed, before you wrote it. I am honest with everything. That is so obvious to me.
I try to fix myself. Doing my best at this very moment. With a help of a therapist.
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