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Post by mrob on Oct 7, 2021 13:48:10 GMT
]The FA irony of all this.....If it turns out I was just being paranoid and anxious. I'll get a brief moment of relief, then panic she actually wants to be with me lol. .....Fu*king fearful avoidance. what a joke. It’s good to know that in advance, though, and see it for the trauma based response it is. Btw, If somebody finds the punch line to this joke of an attachment style, can they please let me know? Lol. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2021 18:58:18 GMT
]The FA irony of all this.....If it turns out I was just being paranoid and anxious. I'll get a brief moment of relief, then panic she actually wants to be with me lol. .....Fu*king fearful avoidance. what a joke. It’s good to know that in advance, though, and see it for the trauma based response it is. Btw, If somebody finds the punch line to this joke of an attachment style, can they please let me know? Lol. I tell you what, I'm just amazed at the amount of self awareness you all have. I mean, I am questioning my entire relationship history and just can't come up with the clarity that you guys seem to have when I look back at it. I know I was a mess but maybe just tuned out in negativity. I think the main difference is I didn't have the pull TOWARD these entanglements that is FA. Until my stasis was threatened, but even then it wasn't a remarkable feature of my attachments. It works out ok because I'm in truly a good thing by now, and I have worked on a lot to get here. But sometimes this all seems much more murky to me than what you all see happening in yourselves. Good on you for that, And for all the work. |
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Post by mrob on Oct 8, 2021 7:28:46 GMT
@introvert, your experience is like the other DAs that have been here. I’ve been on this forum for about 5 years and have seen two really amazing DA transformations. Like the ice has melted. Iit’s truly beautiful. DAs generally don’t come here. Those people that have gone on their way now, but what happened with them sticks with me, as alexandra ‘s experience does. This isn’t a life sentence. Change is possible. Freedom from this horrible bondage to the subconscious is possible. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2021 22:43:32 GMT
@introvert, your experience is like the other DAs that have been here. I’ve been on this forum for about 5 years and have seen two really amazing DA transformations. Like the ice has melted. Iit’s truly beautiful. DAs generally don’t come here. Those people that have gone on their way now, but what happened with them sticks with me, as alexandra ‘s experience does. This isn’t a life sentence. Change is possible. Freedom from this horrible bondage to the subconscious is possible. I can see why it would be described as ice melting, for me the change is not so much from cold to warm but from numb to sensitive- to attachment. However, I still wonder, what is "normal" when it comes to attachment feelings. I am on another trip, and while it's been amazing, I recognize that my feelings of attachment dissipate when I travel. I don't know, why- I appreciate everything and I am enjoying, I am maintaining all the contact and behaviors and warmth as we do through our normal days... but I feel a sadness as well as a detachment. Ive written before, that I know this well, this grey area between attached and aloof. And so, I just choose to be the same in spite of the loss of deep feeling. I respect him, I care for him, I love him but there is a lack of that emotional something or other that he seems to maintain at all times. It's just the way I am, maybe it is the correct way to be , the reasonable way to be, as I have heard it said that love is a choice day by day, with ebbs and flows. Just pondering in a moment of alone time. I don't know that it's very significant, it is what it is. I am guessing that most people experience it. |
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Post by krolle on Oct 9, 2021 2:42:28 GMT
It’s good to know that in advance, though, and see it for the trauma based response it is. Btw, If somebody finds the punch line to this joke of an attachment style, can they please let me know? Lol. I tell you what, I'm just amazed at the amount of self awareness you all have. I mean, I am questioning my entire relationship history and just can't come up with the clarity that you guys seem to have when I look back at it. I know I was a mess but maybe just tuned out in negativity. I think the main difference is I didn't have the pull TOWARD these entanglements that is FA. Until my stasis was threatened, but even then it wasn't a remarkable feature of my attachments. It works out ok because I'm in truly a good thing by now, and I have worked on a lot to get here. But sometimes this all seems much more murky to me than what you all see happening in yourselves. Good on you for that, And for all the work. One of the "benefits" (I use that phrase very loosely) of being FA is that we can see both sides of the equation. When I am triggered avoidant it is pretty murky as you said. Certainly compared to anxiously triggered. The pain is dulled. The feelings sometimes distant, empty, depressed. Motivation to change is low. it's a more drawn out and nebulous numb feeling. Hard to describe other than empty. At least for me. But still awful over the long term. The Clarity you are talking about missing comes from the attention ripping acute agony of the anxious side. It's almost the opposite of numb, empty and detached. The pain gives you feverish but dysfunctional drive and motivation. Your body screams that MUST try get this person's attention for the sake of your survival in that moment. Your chest is tight with fear and pain. Other day to day problems in life seem trivial. You go to great lengths and do embarrassing things which you later usually regret. This is all dependent on HOW anxious or disordered you are of course. And the feeling can range from mild discomfort to unbearable agony. With a proportionately desperate action to remedy unless extreme discipline or awareness is in place. A second consideration is the perceived locus of control. Humans like to be in control. The anxious person views the other as the key to taking away their pain. They cannot usually, or at least completely control "other" so fear is felt. And this drives behaviour toward other, often manipulation, guilt tripping etc to try regain control. With avoidant, the perceived locus of control is within themselves, which ostensibly feels more comfortable. Though in reality, the subconscious of each individual is in control so it's all really an illusion..........lol |
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Post by krolle on Oct 9, 2021 2:53:17 GMT
@introvert, your experience is like the other DAs that have been here. I’ve been on this forum for about 5 years and have seen two really amazing DA transformations. Like the ice has melted. Iit’s truly beautiful. DAs generally don’t come here. Those people that have gone on their way now, but what happened with them sticks with me, as alexandra ‘s experience does. This isn’t a life sentence. Change is possible. Freedom from this horrible bondage to the subconscious is possible. I can see why it would be described as ice melting, for me the change is not so much from cold to warm but from numb to sensitive- to attachment. However, I still wonder, what is "normal" when it comes to attachment feelings. I am on another trip, and while it's been amazing, I recognize that my feelings of attachment dissipate when I travel. I don't know, why- I appreciate everything and I am enjoying, I am maintaining all the contact and behaviors and warmth as we do through our normal days... but I feel a sadness as well as a detachment. Ive written before, that I know this well, this grey area between attached and aloof. And so, I just choose to be the same in spite of the loss of deep feeling. I respect him, I care for him, I love him but there is a lack of that emotional something or other that he seems to maintain at all times. It's just the way I am, maybe it is the correct way to be , the reasonable way to be, as I have heard it said that love is a choice day by day, with ebbs and flows. Just pondering in a moment of alone time. I don't know that it's very significant, it is what it is. I am guessing that most people experience it. I should imagine the ebbs and flows are natural. I offer what support my listening to you is worth. Though I'm self admittedly not an expert. It sounds like a somewhat distressing feeling. Is the detached feeling mostly felt only when you travel? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2021 3:41:43 GMT
I tell you what, I'm just amazed at the amount of self awareness you all have. I mean, I am questioning my entire relationship history and just can't come up with the clarity that you guys seem to have when I look back at it. I know I was a mess but maybe just tuned out in negativity. I think the main difference is I didn't have the pull TOWARD these entanglements that is FA. Until my stasis was threatened, but even then it wasn't a remarkable feature of my attachments. It works out ok because I'm in truly a good thing by now, and I have worked on a lot to get here. But sometimes this all seems much more murky to me than what you all see happening in yourselves. Good on you for that, And for all the work. One of the "benefits" (I use that phrase very loosely) of being FA is that we can see both sides of the equation. When I am triggered avoidant it is pretty murky as you said. Certainly compared to anxiously triggered. The pain is dulled. The feelings sometimes distant, empty, depressed. Motivation to change is low. it's a more drawn out and nebulous numb feeling. Hard to describe other than empty. At least for me. But still awful over the long term. The Clarity you are talking about missing comes from the attention ripping acute agony of the anxious side. It's almost the opposite of numb, empty and detached. The pain gives you feverish but dysfunctional drive and motivation. Your body screams that MUST try get this person's attention for the sake of your survival in that moment. Your chest is tight with fear and pain. Other day to day problems in life seem trivial. You go to great lengths and do embarrassing things which you later usually regret. This is all dependent on HOW anxious or disordered you are of course. And the feeling can range from mild discomfort to unbearable agony. With a proportionately desperate action to remedy unless extreme discipline or awareness is in place. A second consideration is the perceived locus of control. Humans like to be in control. The anxious person views the other as the key to taking away their pain. They cannot usually, or at least completely control "other" so fear is felt. And this drives behaviour toward other, often manipulation, guilt tripping etc to try regain control. With avoidant, the perceived locus of control is within themselves, which ostensibly feels more comfortable. Though in reality, the subconscious of each individual is in control so it's all really an illusion..........lol I think this is pretty accurate. Although, I've aggressively pursued contact during conflict when the manipulation tactic of stonewalling was used, it's a fight effort but isn't long lived. So if I was experiencing that more than transiently then things would be different. I think I just can't stand that kind of powerlessness so I go a different way- it's not that I don't feel threatened it's that I feel too threatened to even allow it- but that isn't coming from a position of strength it's coming from a position of survival. But the way you guys can narrate what's going on in yourselves and the candor with which you do it is remarkable to me. I just kind of lose my words when I have to think about all this stuff and explain what I'm thinking and doing. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2021 3:45:33 GMT
I can see why it would be described as ice melting, for me the change is not so much from cold to warm but from numb to sensitive- to attachment. However, I still wonder, what is "normal" when it comes to attachment feelings. I am on another trip, and while it's been amazing, I recognize that my feelings of attachment dissipate when I travel. I don't know, why- I appreciate everything and I am enjoying, I am maintaining all the contact and behaviors and warmth as we do through our normal days... but I feel a sadness as well as a detachment. Ive written before, that I know this well, this grey area between attached and aloof. And so, I just choose to be the same in spite of the loss of deep feeling. I respect him, I care for him, I love him but there is a lack of that emotional something or other that he seems to maintain at all times. It's just the way I am, maybe it is the correct way to be , the reasonable way to be, as I have heard it said that love is a choice day by day, with ebbs and flows. Just pondering in a moment of alone time. I don't know that it's very significant, it is what it is. I am guessing that most people experience it. I should imagine the ebbs and flows are natural. I offer what support my listening to you is worth. Though I'm self admittedly not an expert. It sounds like a somewhat distressing feeling. Is the detached feeling mostly felt only when you travel? Thank you krolle. It's not very distressing, just a little melancholy at moments, and I wish I could do better internally for him, he deserves that. On the other hand, I also accept it and don't know what could be done to change it. I do feel it consistently when I travel, and often also when I get stressed about something. Traveling makes me feel very much in my own bubble, set apart as though I am on my own private soul journey. Hard to explain. I have to keep bringing myself back to the shared moment. But it's ok. |
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Post by alexandra on Oct 9, 2021 4:33:55 GMT
@introvert, remember that when a DA gets overwhelmed or stress, the nervous system shuts down and numbs to handle it. You've said traveling can be stressful for you, especially since I'm assuming new places may be challenging for your HSP. Not necessarily knowing what to expect and out of your comfort zone or getting overwhelmed, even if it's subtle. I think it's great you recognize the ebb and flow, I also think you recognize it has little to do with your partner and you keep choosing to come back from it. So it probably is natural for you for that to be a stress response.
I also think it's natural for people to ebb and flow specifically when going between stress and not stressed, though I don't lose feelings for my partner when I'm distracted with other stuff. It's more just like, I'm busy, and when my attention is back it'll be back to normal with more focus on him. But it doesn't mean I ignore his cues or get irritated and feel interrupted if he needs something, or I feel less depth of feeling, it's really just more like I'm temporarily busy and occupied elsewhere and will get back "home" after finishing whatever is distracting me (if it's not something we're problem-solving together in the first place). Or after I have me time if it's about that. But we're also still early in the first couple years, so maybe that'll change to be more ebb and flow later on after several years, who knows.
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Post by anne12 on Oct 9, 2021 5:37:42 GMT
Or maybe this ? jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/3216/why-happy-all-timeWhen I am in a car, in a bus, on a train, on a boat I become very quiet. One reason is because I get seasick when Im on a boat or in a bus, and I have to keep my eyes on the road/on the horizon. Another reason is because I just want to enjoy the nature, the view, to be quiet in my own "hsp" bubble. Nature makes me quiet and movement makes me quiet. Im also aware of more things around me, than non hsps, so I guess Im prosessing all the inputs. For some hsps they get very affected by windy weather. All the fresh air and the wind can make them more tired. I dont know if your boyfriend talks a lot ? One of my friends and her husband got their own boat and they go sailing in their summerholliday. They dont really talk much during the 2-3 weeks, they are together on the boat. She is hsp and he is an outgoing avoidant. But again you might still have a tendency to auto regulate and be in a paralell world when you are together with your partner. I was thinking that you are also extra close when you are together on a boat. You could also be "scuba diving"... Also people who are in a kind of freeze state, can (suddenly) feel outside of whats going on and can feel all alone while they are together with other people. E.g.. if you go out with your collages after work. We can also get sad when we get in contact with what we have been missing I dont know if any of this resonates with you ? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2021 12:32:45 GMT
@introvert, remember that when a DA gets overwhelmed or stress, the nervous system shuts down and numbs to handle it. You've said traveling can be stressful for you, especially since I'm assuming new places may be challenging for your HSP. Not necessarily knowing what to expect and out of your comfort zone or getting overwhelmed, even if it's subtle. I think it's great you recognize the ebb and flow, I also think you recognize it has little to do with your partner and you keep choosing to come back from it. So it probably is natural for you for that to be a stress response. I also think it's natural for people to ebb and flow specifically when going between stress and not stressed, though I don't lose feelings for my partner when I'm distracted with other stuff. It's more just like, I'm busy, and when my attention is back it'll be back to normal with more focus on him. But it doesn't mean I ignore his cues or get irritated and feel interrupted if he needs something, or I feel less depth of feeling, it's really just more like I'm temporarily busy and occupied elsewhere and will get back "home" after finishing whatever is distracting me (if it's not something we're problem-solving together in the first place). Or after I have me time if it's about that. But we're also still early in the first couple years, so maybe that'll change to be more ebb and flow later on after several years, who knows. Yeah, I don't ignore his cues or get irritated either, in fact I make sure to be consistent with him because I recognize the shift is inside of me and he's the same guy, consistent and affectionate and he has always needed affection. And, I am experienced enough to know my internal state is like the ocean going in and out so I just observe it. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2021 12:39:12 GMT
Or maybe this ? jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/3216/why-happy-all-timeWhen I am in a car, in a bus, on a train, on a boat I become very quiet. One reason is because I get seasick when Im on a boat or in a bus, and I have to keep my eyes on the road/on the horizon. Another reason is because I just want to enjoy the nature, the view, to be quiet in my own "hsp" bubble. Nature makes me quiet and movement makes me quiet. Im also aware of more things around me, than non hsps, so I guess Im prosessing all the inputs. For some hsps they get very affected by windy weather. All the fresh air and the wind can make them more tired. I dont know if your boyfriend talks a lot ? One of my friends and her husband got their own boat and they go sailing in their summerholliday. They dont really talk much during the 2-3 weeks, they are together on the boat. She is hsp and he is an outgoing avoidant. But again you might still have a tendency to auto regulate and be in a paralell world when you are together with your partner. I was thinking that you are also extra close when you are together on a boat. You could also be "scuba diving"... Also people who are in a kind of freeze state, can (suddenly) feel outside of whats going on and can feel all alone while they are together with other people. E.g.. if you go out with your collages after work. We can also get sad when we get in contact with what we have been missing I dont know if any of this resonates with you ? Actually, quite a bit resonates with me. I also get quiet on the boat, a plane, any more of traveling- it is a bubble where I just become an experiencer, and observer, taking it all in and appreciating my smallness. I do not like conversation at these times, and find it to be an intrusion. He lets me be, I think he knows this about me. Being on the boat for 2-3 days, yes it is a small space. We don't get apart time when we travel, as we do at home- which means I don't get my "me" time of quiet. He does talk a lot, I like to just relax. I think I do tend to parallel but I'm trying ways to do that that are still connected- say laying with him in the cockpit of the boat, leaning back on him, while in my bubble looking at the sky. I used to feel profound sadness when I would be with people , like you describe above coming into contact with what I've been missing. So it's all making a lot of sense ! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2021 17:25:46 GMT
I'm sitting here at a football game with my boyfriend, his nephew plays college ball. I'm feeling connected, that "belonging" and bonded feeling. As I reflect on it, I think it really takes me a few days to adjust to new circumstances and I never fully do during these short trips. We are four days in, and I just now feel myself. Not to say I don't enjoy myself, but my system isn't really landed at first. I asked him to take a quiet walk with me in some natural area by the football field, We held hands and I picked up some chestnuts off the ground to take home for a souvenir. Little stuff like that makes me feel bonded to him. I appreciate being able to sound off here because I feel a little guilty when I can't "feel" him so to speak. He doesn't seem to notice, it is I who notice and just let it change. Weird- we are fluid creatures aren't we? PS this is only possible because I have learned how to shroud myself anne12! Good sun/heat protection, hearing protection, eye protection and my bubble intact! 😃 |
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Post by bohemianraspberry on Oct 10, 2021 15:17:03 GMT
krolle , I came back to this forum today after several months, because I had discovered there might be a link between ADHD and FA, and wanted to search for posts about it. If you read my thread from 1,5 year ago ( jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/2442/dating-oh-another-fa) you can see that I had just met my boyfriend, that I am still seeing and love very much. As I was very into attachment theory at the time we met, I quickly gave him the FA label, a label I also suspected myself to have. He was both lovebombing and with a big need for alone time. Now, our relationship has grown very secure. We laugh about our mutual needs to be separate, and then miss each other right after one of us has left. Lately, he said he suspected he might have ADHD, and clearly, he checkes all the boxes. I also have suspected I could have ADD. These are the most important similarities between ADHD and FA that I have found: - One symptom of ADHD is RSD, rejection sensitiv dysforia, described by "an overwhelming emotional sensation that a person may experience in response to an actual or perceived rejection or criticism" - Persons with ADHD can be overwhelmed with too many impressions, and thus the need for alone time - About 50 % of adults with ADHD has problems with anxiety - FAs have a disorganized attachment, while ADHD persons have a disorganized lifestyle EDIT, added: - Both ADHD and FA have low self-esteem I can also see the parallell to CPSTD and have read Pete Walkers book. krolle a lot of what you describe fits with the ADHD symptoms. I can recognize myself in the part of being easily bored, constant in search of novelty and variation. This is one of the reasons I do not want to live together with my boyfriend (he agrees), as living separate will keep me out of the boring daily life routines. I would rather have a boyfriend that I can miss and meet up with in between. I am just putting the pieces together that this aversion to routines is an ADHD trait as well...
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Post by krolle on Oct 10, 2021 19:08:52 GMT
krolle , I came back to this forum today after several months, because I had discovered there might be a link between ADHD and FA, and wanted to search for posts about it. If you read my thread from 1,5 year ago ( jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/2442/dating-oh-another-fa) you can see that I had just met my boyfriend, that I am still seeing and love very much. As I was very into attachment theory at the time we met, I quickly gave him the FA label, a label I also suspected myself to have. He was both lovebombing and with a big need for alone time. Now, our relationship has grown very secure. We laugh about our mutual needs to be separate, and then miss each other right after one of us has left. Lately, he said he suspected he might have ADHD, and clearly, he checkes all the boxes. I also have suspected I could have ADD. These are the most important similarities between ADHD and FA that I have found: - One symptom of ADHD is RSD, rejection sensitiv dysforia, described by "an overwhelming emotional sensation that a person may experience in response to an actual or perceived rejection or criticism" - Persons with ADHD can be overwhelmed with too many impressions, and thus the need for alone time - About 50 % of adults with ADHD has problems with anxiety - FAs have a disorganized attachment, while ADHD persons have a disorganized lifestyle EDIT, added: - Both ADHD and FA have low self-esteem I can also see the parallell to CPSTD and have read Pete Walkers book. krolle a lot of what you describe fits with the ADHD symptoms. I can recognize myself in the part of being easily bored, constant in search of novelty and variation. This is one of the reasons I do not want to live together with my boyfriend (he agrees), as living separate will keep me out of the boring daily life routines. I would rather have a boyfriend that I can miss and meet up with in between. I am just putting the pieces together that this aversion to routines is an ADHD trait as well... Very well observed bohemianraspberryI certainly agree with what you said. Though I will reiterate I don't have an official diagnosis of ADHD. I just recognise a lot of the patterns. I'm really happy you guys have found a way of living that seems to be working for you. And the way you came to the realization together and discussed it compassionately and from a problem solving perspective makes me jealous. It's lovely to hear. But makes my heart hopeful to see couples who are 'different' still finding and keeping love. I had heard of being together but living apart succeeding for some couples. I agree with the similarities you pointed out between ADHD and FA. And I see all of them in my life. I think a big thing (though not the only thing) which links a lot of these traits is the concept of a 'narrow window of tolerance' If people with this type of being in the world are in this narrow window we almost seem to have superpowers. For ADHD it could be hyperfocus on a particular specific subject. Similar for ASD. creative And seemingly unlimited endurance. In Fearful avoidance we can be exceptional partners whilst the narrow margin of comfort is there. This is often understood as love bombing. For the short time we are balanced between anxiety and avoidance we are often attentive, sexual, engaged, fun and connected. For HSP the sensativity can allow us to see and feel things that others wouldn't. To be creative, enpathetic and act as a good warning for subtle danger. Conversely, If we are pushed outside these narrow tolerances we collapse almost unrecognizably. Fail to thrive. Withdraw from our relationships, humanity and life. We are innatentive, insensitive, disorganized physically and relationally. This can be seen in a lot of the overlapping previously mentioned traits. Prone to burn out. it's like everything is overwhelming. Does that resonates to you any? it's all just theory at this point. Having said that I have been discussing ADHD with @shiningstar a little bit privately and she is Anxious preoccupied I believe so might have a different opinion on this. Which I invite. |
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