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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2022 3:01:14 GMT
It's a pretty big red flag when someone you've been dating breaks up suddenly and won't let you in on a life shattering "problem" and then continues to want your friendship and support and everything on their terms, including secrecy. I'm not sure that the relationship was secure because it seems like something that you'd have to really risk, to continue without the trust involved in explaining the breakup.
I don't see what isn't manipulative about his actions, but whatever your feelings are around the things you said, I think you should do whatever you feel you need to do there. The whole thing has been on his terms, I don't know why that would need to continue especially since he feels comfortable blaming you about that "space" he needed after he broke up and then opted back in.
The whole thing sounds very unhealthy, best of luck in how ever you decide to move forward.
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Post by charlii on Jan 22, 2022 3:58:12 GMT
Hey thanks for the feedback and the sense. Yes Ihear everything you are saying. And if I was not in it myself I would be telling someone to run. On paper it looks bad exactly what you are saying.
It is so strange, bc he did 'show up' this entire time. I mean ENTIRE. Honest. am pretty observant and dont miss anything. But tho big the vulnerability was his flaw, being afraid. He seemed to be working on the opening up and like I said anytime close, he backed off. Incredibly loving always. I can say in the entire time, he was great. EXCEPT THIS which is huge I know. I cant even imagine he could do it this long so I don't think he was faking anything.
. He just has quirks which in retrospect I think about. He wil work for anyone who asks to switch, but he will never switch. I got it out of him he does not like to owe anybody anything. I recently wondered if his people pleasing or. please me caught up. I believe his parents know he has soesthing wrong but don't know what. I felt like telling them but did't want to overstep or seem like the jilted gf. He has never done anything to me and everyone likes him. He never likes to accept help, never complains much either. I see him be positive. It must be tiring. But as I said..soe of the quirks seemed like obsessions/compusions since the breakup #1....
I cannot tell you waht happened here. I feel like he changed when this happened initially. Maybe he had a breakdown. No one knows he has a problem just me. I am sure family thinks something. away and they were worried that had I been here I was not there) but I got stuck abroad. The only trigger I can think is that he has been building--he does not talk about himself unless you ask. Even his family. I hear the most. HE is ultra supportive and positive about me, anything I need, attentive. This is why I was wondering if FA or even DA involves any type of breakdown, and this is why I wondered why ofc not meaning to diagnose, but things like BPD or ROCD. And tbh, the last option I though maybe is is considering or questioning his sexuality. The look on his face about the problem he seems so tstressed and he can't even talk about it. It is def some trauma. He seems every upset to talk about it too. It so guarded. I have seen him up till 4 am, and recently listening to classical. music. He's clearly doing some good eating and exercising and just internally stuff. He contatlntly tells me he wishes he could share things and be open and he loves that but its so hard for him (in general). You can see him get anxious about stuff.
I have seen other people say don't share their OCD or. mental illness, etc. but I am not a believer in that I mean no oversharing, but it can help the relationship if people understand each other, at least if you feel comfortable.
My gut tells me anything is possible, or he is questioning, and he has intimacy issues on top of it. Part of me feels he has horrible self esteem, and is afraid I wlll see the real him. Part of me feels he is afraid he will hurt me..So he sabotaged it all a few weeks agp bc bc of these fears. I think he is aware, but confused. The communication is very confusing but he did try. I think he regrets he was over shared about the problem (I was able to figure some things). I thikn he knows I don't miss much, and it scares him. SO I waver/. I have the power to not make him go further in..but a simple acknowledgement of feelings and they were important ( even if I don't agree). OR I can do nothing
I have not decided what to do. I don' want to make myself miserable if he gives a crappy response. Still Assessing. Thanks for your insight and for reading.. it was so long.
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 22, 2022 4:11:25 GMT
Hey thanks for the feedback and the sense. Yes Ihear everything you are saying. And if I was not in it myself I would be telling someone to run. On paper it looks bad exactly what you are saying. It is so strange, bc he did 'show up' this entire time. I mean ENTIRE. Honest. am pretty observant and dont miss anything. But tho big the vulnerability was his flaw, being afraid. He seemed to be working on the opening up and like I said anytime close, he backed off. Incredibly loving always. I can say in the entire time, he was great. EXCEPT THIS which is huge I know. I cant even imagine he could do it this long so I don't think he was faking anything. . He just has quirks which in retrospect I think about. He wil work for anyone who asks to switch, but he will never switch. I got it out of him he does not like to owe anybody anything. I recently wondered if his people pleasing or. please me caught up. I believe his parents know he has soesthing wrong but don't know what. I felt like telling them but did't want to overstep or seem like the jilted gf. He has never done anything to me and everyone likes him. He never likes to accept help, never complains much either. I see him be positive. It must be tiring. But as I said..soe of the quirks seemed like obsessions/compusions since the breakup #1.... I cannot tell you waht happened here. I feel like he changed when this happened initially. Maybe he had a breakdown. No one knows he has a problem just me. I am sure family thinks it is quirky. I think his parents were worried about him over the holidays and were asking him where was. (I was away and they were worried that had I been here I was not there) but I got stuck abroad. The only trigger I can think is that he has been building--he does not talk about himself unless you ask. Even his family. I hear the most. HE is ultra supportive and positive about me, anything I need, attentive. This is why I was wondering if FA or even DA involves any type of breakdown, and this is why I wondered why ofc not meaning to diagnose, but things like BPD or ROCD. And tbh, the last option I though maybe is is considering or questioning his sexuality. The look on his face about the problem he seems so tstressed and he can't even talk about it. It is def some trauma. He seems every upset to talk about it too. It so guarded. I have seen him up till 4 am, and recently listening to classical. music. He's clearly doing some good eating and exercising and just internally stuff. He contatlntly tells me he wishes he could share things and be open and he loves that but its so hard for him (in general). You can see him get anxious about stuff. I have seen other people say don't share their OCD or. mental illness, etc. but I am not a believer in that. My gut tells me he is questioning, and he has intimacy issues on top of it. Part of me feels he has horrible self esteem, and is afraid I wlll see the real him. Part of me feels he is afraid he will hurt me..So he sabotaged it all a few weeks agp bc bc of these fears. I Thanks for your insight and for reading.. it was so long. So…it is a very AP characteristic to mind read their partner. Your gut really should be speaking about how you feel, not what you think he is feeling…because you honestly do not know since you have not spoken directly to him about what he feels. Regardless, the fact is you have no influence or impact on his attachment issues….he has to work that through for himself. Right now…the focus would be best returned to you….what do you want going forward! Is that being met?
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Post by charlii on Jan 22, 2022 4:34:12 GMT
You know maybe I read that from you elsewhere about the mind reading and I wrote it down . Because I thought it was valid to include that should I decide to write. :0 So thanks it is a great point. See I am the type to dive right in and learn and adjust if I can be happy and everone can. I thikn I am leaning that AP for sure right now.. Strangely I was seciure but he didn't cause that I had alot of stress last year but his problem added to it. I can say I was happy before this happened 2 weeks ago. I was understanding about the 1st time. I for sure saw crisis and panic. and it happened for a few months. I saw lots of trying to communicate, and get me through to understand without saying it. He was patient bc Iknow he was in hell I am not happy w what happened a couple weeks ago. He is an aware person. I know he is working behind the scenes and not say what. He is focusd and will do what he can for himself. Gong forward..I am not sure yet. This person I wanted in my life forever in some way. Frend minimally. I don't know how long we would have been a couple. maybe short term maybe forever. I know I love him but I don't want to get married today. I thought of experiencing life w him and wherever it takes us..Secretly hoping we make it. I never had any desire for anyone else. He was my everything, and I study people In alot of ways he was perfect to me and for me. I would have never broken up even w communication flaws....bc I saw he tried and got better. I saw it as a work in progress and I was secure in not asking every little thing actually. I learned security through him (for the first year). Minimally as a best friend I thought we would be...I hope someday something bc I really love him he will never know much I did. He had said before he didn't know how long this is gonna take. For all I know he figured himself out what he is...And know this needed time. And He didnt want to give it up It was hard even for me. My halt on not contacting him is to prove to him this tine I am giving what he asked for and listening. s. He wanted space he asked now.. But I don't want him to think he ruined me that he can't contact me in some capacity someday if I dont reach out first. . Oh and I am focused on me btw. I am working out, gym, drawing, and researching all about things to be a better person!! I have my moments of ruminating..but I'm sad, mad and ok at the same time
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Post by alexandra on Jan 22, 2022 4:39:54 GMT
Sounds a lot like a substance abuse problem. I suppose you mentioned he might be questioning his sexuality so it's also implied you may have stopped being intimate because he can't be any longer physically -- that he "didn't imagine this would happen with you." Well, it's very common for an unaware avoidant who is shut down to disconnect from their sexual attraction to the partner they are shut down from, blaming loss of feelings, even if it's disconnection from themselves and inability to access those feelings. Either way, it is implied by what he said that this is an issue that's recurring, and he thought he could handle it, but he cannot.
The fact that he cannot handle a relationship or having his own life in order is the only important takeaway. He knows you care, it's not about his feelings for you, it's not about you trying to armchair diagnose him with a Cluster B or Cluster C disorder. It's not even about him having a fearful avoidant attachment, though he sounds like he probably does.
What matters is that he cannot manage himself, he does not act maturely or show up consistently in a long-term relationship, he cannot fully commit to a partnership, he cannot give you the foundation of trust and respect that you deserve. If you want a long-term serious commitment, he cannot do it. You didn't cause his issues, so you cannot fix them. You cannot help him if he doesn't want help, which he doesn't or he'd have told you the problem. And do you want a partner who turns towards you or who runs away from you in difficult times? Relationships always have difficult times: illness, loss of jobs or loved ones, financial concerns, pandemic, stress, if you had children sometimes the children will be difficult or sick or overwhelming, or you will be sick. And then where will that leave you if you have a partner whom you cannot trust to show up or even tell you when he has a big issue which impacts not only himself but also you?
That is why @introvert noted that this is a deeply unhealthy connection.
If you are serious about becoming more secure and healing your AP attachment style, continuing to focus on him instead of yourself will keep you stuck and unable to so. Where are your needs in here? Why the focus on diagnosing him and how to save him? You cannot save someone who does not want help. You can let him go for now with love and compassion while you look inward and show up for yourself. If he gets to a point where he wants to help himself, you will know. He'll find a therapist or drug treatment program or whatever he needs, and he will tell you what his problem is but not put it on you to fix it for him. He'll take responsibility and act like the adult he is. Look into your own attachment style and what you need, and it will eventually give you the answers and perspective you seek.
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Post by charlii on Jan 22, 2022 5:26:01 GMT
Def not a substance abuse problem. And no if anything intimacy that way is great. Physically he is very intimate. I said the bc you can be attracted to both sexes but in your heart know you are really wanting the the same sex. And no one knows till you are ready. He is definitely not connecting that way. The recurring thing...is why I kept going back to some thought and ROCD is veery similar. in that unless you get treatment, it will carry over to all relationships. . Lots have the avoidant or anxious personality. I just happen to know alot about OCD from 2 friends that have it and some other stuff close people have that I know.
Yep regarding all you said otherwise. Oh no at this point I am not looking for the dx. I am truing to learn that is how I found myself here. And, I was wavering on the letter concurrently.
Its def unhealthy and this may be the guilt..he knows it. He has said it is his and his t fix. My anger about it is his ignoring that the problem unlimitedly affected me too. In his mind he hears people ghost, etc and he thinks he has told me alot while other run, He feels he didn't do that llo. He is not putting on me to fix it.
I appreciate all you guys are writing and not discounting it I agree w most of it actually. He made the choice this time and I didnt stop it. The first one, I thought a depressisnon type problem or maybe sick and I was all in to be the supportive friends. but not this time bc I feel it was his choice to remove me seriously this time.
Hes def not thikning clear. .Who does this as you are leaving. For that I am mad. He sat on this.He told me he doesn't know anyone else that would keep asking things if space was needed. I said anyone would, and he claimed not ONE would. Completely out of touch when emotions going
What is sad is that he has been opening about emotions, even if when they are not good. Like I wasn't even asking or thinking about it tbh. At least he was doing it. I told him I take him to painful places and know he well. HE agreed
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2022 5:31:48 GMT
I second what tnr9 and alexandra said above, and add that you seem to have some pretty heavy codependency going on. I understand the shock of the initial breakup over the "problem" and the temporary insanity around that - but it sounds like you bamoboozled yourself into thinking that this kind of secrecy and all his needs to control this relationship is ok or something you can work with. Turns out, you can't because he did it again. And how the trust goes one way- you are supposed to trust him but hell if he can trust you with an important secret- I mean, you did a number on yourself to minimize that and morph into his buddy so he can be comfortable. Healthy relationships are reciprocal not one sided like this. This is more than quirks. And, here you are trying to give him what he needs again while he blames, hides, controls the relationship, ENDS the relationship. It really isn't appropriate to be looking for his diagnosis or labeling him, turn that focus on your own behaviors and beliefs to discover what is going on with you. You are in need of an intervention here for yourself. It's common to avoid REALLY exploring that by trying to figure out what is wrong with the ex, but you can probably see what I'm getting at. Explore your own dysfunction because that's what is going to give you the answers you really need to get health and peaceful eventually.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2022 5:52:20 GMT
There are all kinds of things you could speculate on, as far as the "problem". First thing I thought is that he cheated with his ex and she's had a baby, actually. Not to freak you out but the speculation happens because he's not transparent...the "having a hard time opening up " is toxic for a relationship. It's so destructive and yes, selfish. But twisting yourself up to accommodate it is where you abandoned yourself. I'm sorry you're going through this.
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Post by charlii on Jan 22, 2022 6:23:55 GMT
Thanks guys I know it is all from a place of love. I should clarify. It wasn't as simple as I am breaking up bc I ahve a problem and you can't know it. I am not condoning it..but he could not say bc of " this problem called X". We talked over and over ..probably a 3 month period about the problem, and how he was feeling going through it. I just didn't have a name. It go to the point I didnt care tbh. I knew it was keeping him awake. The bottom line is he does not know how to communicated complicated r stressful things, and not ready to say it directly what it is.
It's not the baby..lol. He doesn't have many ex's either at al no baby. He is a real homebody too. We just sort of had the dynamic we always knew where each other are, texted a ton ..That was all him. and it was a nice.. It's not about what he needs now...it's more me. In terms of I am objective. If I feel I can do better I am not afraid to say it. Esp if my words affect someone. Unlike him I fix mistakes I make
And sometimes I was using the word quirks for red flags.
AllI know I feel his brain changed after whatever happend to him that came suddenly. He almost descibed a breakdown type experience. And you are right.I do blame him bc ambiguity and not able t open up, or deflect something, and not knowing crated a huge mess of uncertainlty. So when I got mad ...Iam thinking about the really cause of it all
I'm good mostly at peace. If he called tomorrow , I would not see him, right now Definitely selfish to do that last 15 minutes.. I would spesak with him, always. And see. The joke is he thinks he commicated clearly. Yet not to put him down bc he did communicate sometimes it ws just hard to decipher. I have my 100% and maybe he did too what he was able. So many good things about him I do love 100%. I just am in shock the way it went down, and he hid the feelings 2 times now. I would have given him space all along if he asked me. At least I am getting to be more aware of myself. I wish I found this stuff earlier bc it would have hp;ed me met make it about me always. not realizing that
So I guess it's safe to say that FA snap and get angry and me a blame game..I didnt know
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 22, 2022 17:17:35 GMT
Thanks guys I know it is all from a place of love. I should clarify. It wasn't as simple as I am breaking up bc I ahve a problem and you can't know it. I am not condoning it..but he could not say bc of " this problem called X". We talked over and over ..probably a 3 month period about the problem, and how he was feeling going through it. I just didn't have a name. It go to the point I didnt care tbh. I knew it was keeping him awake. The bottom line is he does not know how to communicated complicated r stressful things, and not ready to say it directly what it is. It's not the baby..lol. He doesn't have many ex's either at al no baby. He is a real homebody too. We just sort of had the dynamic we always knew where each other are, texted a ton ..That was all him. and it was a nice.. It's not about what he needs now...it's more me. In terms of I am objective. If I feel I can do better I am not afraid to say it. Esp if my words affect someone. Unlike him I fix mistakes I make And sometimes I was using the word quirks for red flags. AllI know I feel his brain changed after whatever happend to him that came suddenly. He almost descibed a breakdown type experience. And you are right.I do blame him bc ambiguity and not able t open up, or deflect something, and not knowing crated a huge mess of uncertainlty. So when I got mad ...Iam thinking about the really cause of it all I'm good mostly at peace. If he called tomorrow , I would not see him, Definitely selfish. The joke is he thinks he ommicated clearly. So I guess it's safe to say that FA snap and get angry and me a blame game..I didnt know Actually….what typically happens is that there is “doubt” that is not expressed….or is expressed but not directly….so although it feels like something snapped (and yes, we have had many people speak to the “surprise, snap breakup”on the forum) the reality is a lack of communication. I am an AP leaning FA who experienced a sudden break up with a DA leaning FA. I too spent a lot of time trying to understand him…but understanding him did not change the outcome. It is good that you are putting a boundary with seeing him again. Let whatever happened to him remain with him…..turn your focus back to you.
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Post by charlii on Jan 22, 2022 19:53:57 GMT
Thank you. YEs I was just trying to understand what he may have been going through but unable to communicate normally. Back then It actually helps me to move on. Learning usually helps me do that. and think how I deal w people in future. I know what you mean about the outcome...it happened. Me knowing doesn't change it. Almost his logic w me knowing the problem. It won't change anything it was his to deal with. He knew that and never did want me to think it was me. Hence I guess he was frustrated at the end w space...but taht also ruined in his eyes..or put a nail on the coffin
It is ashame, bc part of me gets it keeping close to his chest exact what it was. that happened (I never told him my ridiculous stresses at times, the details, just I was stressed for example). It is such a grey area. It's harder bc the other boxes he checked off --great. This was a big one not to check off but I almost wish he was a creep...he wasn't (before.) complete. opposite
There were times I don't think he realized he was being selfish in this. HIs pain overrode it I really think. 'He just kept saying before he tried so hard, and this time ..he tried It is a struggle I will never understand I just wish the outcome was different. I think he is working on himself but maybe he needs more than that. I don't know
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Post by alexandra on Jan 22, 2022 21:24:32 GMT
You didn't ruin it, though. He did. He sabotaged it because his defense mechanisms kicked in and it was less painful for him to do what he did than to truly address his problems. Like, his second biggest fear may have been losing you. But his biggest fear was facing the pain of working through the trauma, including communicating and properly leaning on someone else (in a healthy, secure attachment style, there it's a healthy sense of self versus others, healthy boundaries, and a healthy balance and comfort with both independence and interdependence with a partner -- without being codependence). It would have happened with anyone.
Your responsibility to yourself if you're working towards heathly adult connections is recognizing when there's a mismatch like this, when your needs are not being properly considered or respected, when the person doesn't have the capacity to participate in a healthy adult romantic relationship, and assessing what healthy boundaries would be from there.
For many of us who struggled with our own inner work but have made gains in security, it means either letting go of toxic and emotionally draining relationships with love and compassion, but focusing on mourning and processing what happened so we can heal and move on (which may eventually leave room for friendship but also may not). Or it means walking away from potential romantic partners very early, before the relationship is established, because something doesn't sit right (red flags in the connection, which are very often due to insecure attachment styles and accompanying difficulties having an emotionally healthy connection, or possibly due to other mental health issues). Dating reality, what's really in front of you instead of potential, not trying to or hoping to change anyone especially if they didn't ask for your help.
So from this situation, I hope you will learn why it's so important to never abandon yourself, especially to someone else who is too emotionally unstable at the time to "drive" the relationship for you, as they can't even show up for themselves. If you're trying to move your own attachment style towards security, these are some of the underlying concepts to address and internalize on your side of things as you start to heal and figure out what you want to do next.
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Post by cherrycola on Jan 23, 2022 2:31:19 GMT
You didn't ruin it, though. He did. He sabotaged it because his defense mechanisms kicked in and it was less painful for him to do what he did than to truly address his problems. Like, his second biggest fear may have been losing you. But his biggest fear was facing the pain of working through the trauma, including communicating and properly leaning on someone else (in a healthy, secure attachment style, there it's a healthy sense of self versus others, healthy boundaries, and a healthy balance and comfort with both independence and interdependence with a partner -- without being codependence). It would have happened with anyone. This is beautiful. You have a way of being very direct but kind.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2022 4:17:49 GMT
Thank you. YEs I was just trying to understand what he may have been going through but unable to communicate normally. Back then It actually helps me to move on. Learning usually helps me do that. and think how I deal w people in future. I know what you mean about the outcome...it happened. Me knowing doesn't change it. Almost his logic w me knowing the problem. It won't change anything it was his to deal with. He knew that and never did want me to think it was me. Hence I guess he was frustrated at the end w space...but taht also ruined in his eyes..or put a nail on the coffin It is ashame, bc part of me gets it keeping close to his chest exact what it was. that happened (I never told him my ridiculous stresses at times, the details, just I was stressed for example). It is such a grey area. It's harder bc the other boxes he checked off --great. This was a big one not to check off but I almost wish he was a creep...he wasn't (before.) complete. opposite There were times I don't think he realized he was being selfish in this. HIs pain overrode it I really think. 'He just kept saying before he tried so hard, and this time ..he tried It is a struggle I will never understand I just wish the outcome was different. I think he is working on himself but maybe he needs more than that. I don't know It's maddening I know, when so many pieces fit except the most important one. I agree that it's likely his pain was the overriding factor. Not you, it was his own self protection and unskillful response to whatever is going on with him. It takes a lot of time, the right influences, and lots of living getting it wrong and sometimes getting something right in order to get to a point of overcoming this kind of stuff. There's nothing you could have done to preserve what he dismantled. People who sabotage or can't get their footing do the same dance no matter who their partner is.
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Post by charlii on Jan 23, 2022 4:26:27 GMT
You didn't ruin it, though. He did. He sabotaged it because his defense mechanisms kicked in and it was less painful for him to do what he did than to truly address his problems. Like, his second biggest fear may have been losing you. But his biggest fear was facing the pain of working through the trauma, including communicating and properly leaning on someone else (in a healthy, secure attachment style, there it's a healthy sense of self versus others, healthy boundaries, and a healthy balance and comfort with both independence and interdependence with a partner -- without being codependence). It would have happened with anyone. Your responsibility to yourself if you're working towards heathly adult connections is recognizing when there's a mismatch like this, when your needs are not being properly considered or respected, when the person doesn't have the capacity to participate in a healthy adult romantic relationship, and assessing what healthy boundaries would be from there. For many of us who struggled with our own inner work but have made gains in security, it means either letting go of toxic and emotionally draining relationships with love and compassion, but focusing on mourning and processing what happened so we can heal and move on (which may eventually leave room for friendship but also may not). Or it means walking away from potential romantic partners very early, before the relationship is established, because something doesn't sit right (red flags in the connection, which are very often due to insecure attachment styles and accompanying difficulties having an emotionally healthy connection, or possibly due to other mental health issues). Dating reality, what's really in front of you instead of potential, not trying to or hoping to change anyone especially if they didn't ask for your help. So from this situation, I hope you will learn why it's so important to never abandon yourself, especially to someone else who is too emotionally unstable at the time to "drive" the relationship for you, as they can't even show up for themselves. If you're trying to move your own attachment style towards security, these are some of the underlying concepts to address and internalize on your side of things as you start to heal and figure out what you want to do next. I hear you and thanks. Your 2nd-4th sentence hit it home for me. When he said he can't, he meant he can't do the work.HE said outright, a few times "I can't be who I need to be and who we both want me to be". Maybe not yet, because early on he alluded to time..I guess he feels at this time it can't work bc of that. (communication). I was going through texts from like 6 months in and it made me so sad. Bc it said how much he wants to open up, he really does more than anything and he will keep trying. . He is not sure he will ever be able to. IT was much more than that what he said, but I know inside he really wanted to. Sometimes I get the feeling when he said he has learned so much from me, he means about being open. He always says he loves that about me (I am open only with people I trust and care about). He says he can't romantic relationship right now with this thing having a hold on me like it does and it willl keep interfering" And he keeps saying how selfish it is of him and it is not fair to me and not healthy for our relatinionship He broke up the first time..not completely sabotaged but a pretty critical injury. This time, I think the way he did this, it was sabotaged. Part of me thinks he did it on purpose this time to make sure bc like you said wanted to end the pain/response....I even called him on that behavior.., and he got upset saying you thikn I don't still love you, none of that is stopping. It never did. It was just sad. Maybe I will not be angry when I remember he had to do it. He kept saying I HAVE to. Thanks for everything sometimes you just need to read it. And def keep working on me.
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