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Post by anne12 on Mar 18, 2023 21:15:47 GMT
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Post by mrob on Mar 18, 2023 22:22:52 GMT
I assure you the aloneness is temporary. Nature abhors a vacuum. You’re out there doing things. With practice, and the ability to sort the wheat from the chaff, people do come.
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Post by krolle on Mar 20, 2023 13:35:29 GMT
krolle There's a thing that I do for my son when he's getting ready to sleep... he likes me to sing him a song where I tell him that he's perfect just as he is, that his soul is perfect, he doesn't need to be anything different, or do anything different to be loved... and that I accept him just as he is, and I love him no matter what he does etc... it's a weird little song we made up, but he really likes it. He likes to test me and ask all these crazy things he could do, and whether I'd still love him afterwards... It's very hard for an impulsive, neurotic-divergent kid who gets in trouble a lot to feel this intrinsic worth, so we also talk about this as an abstract idea when he acts out (which is a lot)... I tell him that I don't judge him by his anger, or his behaviour or anything else he does... these are just coping mechanisms for the big feelings he has inside of him... the idea is that he learns to separate his behaviour from who he is as a person, and so he can know that he has a perfect soul, is good in his core, and he's loved regardless of what he does... Internal Family Systems therapy deals with this kind of notion as well, which is that we all have different parts of us.. lots of coping mechanisms that we use to deal with fear and pain, but we are all whole, and we all have a calm, compassionate core just waiting to be healed... it's a fascinating type of therapy actually, I'd love to try it. This kind of unconditional love is not as commonly seen in romantic relationships, which are more transactional and boundaried... But I think a lot or all of us with insecure attachments didn't get this unconditional love from our parents and that's why we seek it from our partners through dysfunctional behaviours... we are looking to fill that hole. Not sure if that helps or confuses things..?!!! A little of both perhaps. Some of the language you use is difficult for me to make sense of. I do get the concept that there arent inherantly "good or bad" people, just sometimes a dysfunctional combinations of nature and nurture. But, again, in my mind I cant necessarily tie that to a concept of "value". Much like your son I am neurodivergent in several ways. Neurotic, with social problems and some learning difficulties. But unfortunately was not lucky enough to get much support on that. Not through any malice on my parents part. Just the standard emotional unavailability, likely due to them struggling with similar issues themselves. I can have compassion and understand my situation, but I dont tie that cognitively to me having any kind of inherant value to people. I do believe that I have value to quiet a few people, but that value is earned through my own actions, which provide some benefit to their lives. Regarding the familial love that you described. Then I understand that concept. I have a sibling and I do love my parents. But, again that is because all 3 offer some benefit to my life. Would I still love them if they became suddenly "terrible" people. Then I would say yes. But mostly due to a feeling of attachment obligation and history. Not really "value". I'm sorry if my response is a bit verbose. I do tend to communicate in quiet an asberger way and I understand it can grate on people at times. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 20, 2023 18:47:10 GMT
krolle There's a thing that I do for my son when he's getting ready to sleep... he likes me to sing him a song where I tell him that he's perfect just as he is, that his soul is perfect, he doesn't need to be anything different, or do anything different to be loved... and that I accept him just as he is, and I love him no matter what he does etc... it's a weird little song we made up, but he really likes it. He likes to test me and ask all these crazy things he could do, and whether I'd still love him afterwards... It's very hard for an impulsive, neurotic-divergent kid who gets in trouble a lot to feel this intrinsic worth, so we also talk about this as an abstract idea when he acts out (which is a lot)... I tell him that I don't judge him by his anger, or his behaviour or anything else he does... these are just coping mechanisms for the big feelings he has inside of him... the idea is that he learns to separate his behaviour from who he is as a person, and so he can know that he has a perfect soul, is good in his core, and he's loved regardless of what he does... Internal Family Systems therapy deals with this kind of notion as well, which is that we all have different parts of us.. lots of coping mechanisms that we use to deal with fear and pain, but we are all whole, and we all have a calm, compassionate core just waiting to be healed... it's a fascinating type of therapy actually, I'd love to try it. This kind of unconditional love is not as commonly seen in romantic relationships, which are more transactional and boundaried... But I think a lot or all of us with insecure attachments didn't get this unconditional love from our parents and that's why we seek it from our partners through dysfunctional behaviours... we are looking to fill that hole. Not sure if that helps or confuses things..?!!! A little of both perhaps. Some of the language you use is difficult for me to make sense of. I do get the concept that there arent inherantly "good or bad" people, just sometimes a dysfunctional combinations of nature and nurture. But, again, in my mind I cant necessarily tie that to a concept of "value". Much like your son I am neurodivergent in several ways. Neurotic, with social problems and some learning difficulties. But unfortunately was not lucky enough to get much support on that. Not through any malice on my parents part. Just the standard emotional unavailability, likely due to them struggling with similar issues themselves. I can have compassion and understand my situation, but I dont tie that cognitively to me having any kind of inherant value to people. I do believe that I have value to quiet a few people, but that value is earned through my own actions, which provide some benefit to their lives. Regarding the familial love that you described. Then I understand that concept. I have a sibling and I do love my parents. But, again that is because all 3 offer some benefit to my life. Would I still love them if they became suddenly "terrible" people. Then I would say yes. But mostly due to a feeling of attachment obligation and history. Not really "value". I'm sorry if my response is a bit verbose. I do tend to communicate in quiet an asberger way and I understand it can grate on people at times. I understand this and can relate to how you see things. I once heard the concept that "Worth" is really you being more of who you are. I don't know if that is the same as value, though. But maybe that your value is in being your unique self. Because there is really no one else really like you. I don't know if this is confusing matters, though. |
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 21, 2023 12:25:34 GMT
krolle There's a thing that I do for my son when he's getting ready to sleep... he likes me to sing him a song where I tell him that he's perfect just as he is, that his soul is perfect, he doesn't need to be anything different, or do anything different to be loved... and that I accept him just as he is, and I love him no matter what he does etc... it's a weird little song we made up, but he really likes it. He likes to test me and ask all these crazy things he could do, and whether I'd still love him afterwards... It's very hard for an impulsive, neurotic-divergent kid who gets in trouble a lot to feel this intrinsic worth, so we also talk about this as an abstract idea when he acts out (which is a lot)... I tell him that I don't judge him by his anger, or his behaviour or anything else he does... these are just coping mechanisms for the big feelings he has inside of him... the idea is that he learns to separate his behaviour from who he is as a person, and so he can know that he has a perfect soul, is good in his core, and he's loved regardless of what he does... Internal Family Systems therapy deals with this kind of notion as well, which is that we all have different parts of us.. lots of coping mechanisms that we use to deal with fear and pain, but we are all whole, and we all have a calm, compassionate core just waiting to be healed... it's a fascinating type of therapy actually, I'd love to try it. This kind of unconditional love is not as commonly seen in romantic relationships, which are more transactional and boundaried... But I think a lot or all of us with insecure attachments didn't get this unconditional love from our parents and that's why we seek it from our partners through dysfunctional behaviours... we are looking to fill that hole. Not sure if that helps or confuses things..?!!! A little of both perhaps. Some of the language you use is difficult for me to make sense of. I do get the concept that there arent inherantly "good or bad" people, just sometimes a dysfunctional combinations of nature and nurture. But, again, in my mind I cant necessarily tie that to a concept of "value". Much like your son I am neurodivergent in several ways. Neurotic, with social problems and some learning difficulties. But unfortunately was not lucky enough to get much support on that. Not through any malice on my parents part. Just the standard emotional unavailability, likely due to them struggling with similar issues themselves. I can have compassion and understand my situation, but I dont tie that cognitively to me having any kind of inherant value to people. I do believe that I have value to quiet a few people, but that value is earned through my own actions, which provide some benefit to their lives. Regarding the familial love that you described. Then I understand that concept. I have a sibling and I do love my parents. But, again that is because all 3 offer some benefit to my life. Would I still love them if they became suddenly "terrible" people. Then I would say yes. But mostly due to a feeling of attachment obligation and history. Not really "value". I'm sorry if my response is a bit verbose. I do tend to communicate in quiet an asberger way and I understand it can grate on people at times. The issue comes when you see no value in yourself and thus have to earn it from others. Intrinsic value, self worth, self care, self love…and I am not talking about narcissistic love….but a belief that you matter is not an easy place to get to…but it truly is a game changer for how you view yourself and others. I could not really even grasp this though until I hasp my neurotransmitters balanced…before that my depression was so deep, I could not see any value in myself. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 21, 2023 14:05:27 GMT
The issue comes when you see no value in yourself and thus have to earn it from others. Intrinsic value, self worth, self care, self love…and I am not talking about narcissistic love….but a belief that you matter is not an easy place to get to…but it truly is a game changer for how you view yourself and others. Yes, this is what I was getting at. Valuing ourselves really comes down to being who we are. Not fighting that. I am pretty neurodivergent - I consider that developmental trauma. I'm an HSP. I love to travel. I'm a quiet person. I love literature and reading. I'm spiritual. I don't define that - just that I believe in a higher power. All of this - and more - makes up me. If other people don't value that, it doesn't make me less valuable. But it helps if I'm in agreement with who I am. Rather than fighting myself. Or contorting to meet others needs or being a chameleon, etc. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 21, 2023 14:08:02 GMT
Also, if you look up Pia Mellody's 5 core symptoms of codependency, it's pretty eye-opening on the topic of value, etc.
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Post by krolle on Mar 21, 2023 18:35:47 GMT
A little of both perhaps. Some of the language you use is difficult for me to make sense of. I do get the concept that there arent inherantly "good or bad" people, just sometimes a dysfunctional combinations of nature and nurture. But, again, in my mind I cant necessarily tie that to a concept of "value". Much like your son I am neurodivergent in several ways. Neurotic, with social problems and some learning difficulties. But unfortunately was not lucky enough to get much support on that. Not through any malice on my parents part. Just the standard emotional unavailability, likely due to them struggling with similar issues themselves. I can have compassion and understand my situation, but I dont tie that cognitively to me having any kind of inherant value to people. I do believe that I have value to quiet a few people, but that value is earned through my own actions, which provide some benefit to their lives. Regarding the familial love that you described. Then I understand that concept. I have a sibling and I do love my parents. But, again that is because all 3 offer some benefit to my life. Would I still love them if they became suddenly "terrible" people. Then I would say yes. But mostly due to a feeling of attachment obligation and history. Not really "value". I'm sorry if my response is a bit verbose. I do tend to communicate in quiet an asberger way and I understand it can grate on people at times. The issue comes when you see no value in yourself and thus have to earn it from others. Intrinsic value, self worth, self care, self love…and I am not talking about narcissistic love….but a belief that you matter is not an easy place to get to…but it truly is a game changer for how you view yourself and others. I could not really even grasp this though until I hasp my neurotransmitters balanced…before that my depression was so deep, I could not see any value in myself. I do see value in myself. Lots of it. I volunteer my time to help seniors and people with special needs. I do my best to make those around me feel cared for and appreciated. My work team frequently expresses gratitude for what I contribute. I have been in a relationship for almost a year now which seems to be going well,....at least for an FA. (will elaborate in another post). But again that's all action based. Not intrinsic. I wasnt just born and had value to humanity by being a respiring organism. To get to the point, an argument 'in extremis' might be someone who most of civilized society view as evil. Did Hitler or Teb Bundy for example have intrinsic value? Also neurotransmitter balance? Meaning an SSRI? I have become very interested in those. I assume your experience is positive? Again apologies for being, well...me lol. |
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Post by krolle on Mar 21, 2023 18:36:36 GMT
Also, if you look up Pia Mellody's 5 core symptoms of codependency, it's pretty eye-opening on the topic of value, etc. Do you know which of her books this is in? I have facing co-dependancy of hers which I rate well. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 21, 2023 19:35:43 GMT
I'm going to Private message you the substack link where he posts it. It was in a newsletter.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 21, 2023 23:17:39 GMT
The issue comes when you see no value in yourself and thus have to earn it from others. Intrinsic value, self worth, self care, self love…and I am not talking about narcissistic love….but a belief that you matter is not an easy place to get to…but it truly is a game changer for how you view yourself and others. I could not really even grasp this though until I hasp my neurotransmitters balanced…before that my depression was so deep, I could not see any value in myself. I do see value in myself. Lots of it. I volunteer my time to help seniors and people with special needs. I do my best to make those around me feel cared for and appreciated. My work team frequently expresses gratitude for what I contribute. I have been in a relationship for almost a year now which seems to be going well,....at least for an FA. (will elaborate in another post). But again that's all action based. Not intrinsic. I wasnt just born and had value to humanity by being a respiring organism. To get to the point, an argument 'in extremis' might be someone who most of civilized society view as evil. Did Hitler or Teb Bundy for example have intrinsic value? Also neurotransmitter balance? Meaning an SSRI? I have become very interested in those. I assume your experience is positive? Again apologies for being, well...me lol. It’s ok…it is a good and somewhat complex topic to explore….Would you say someone with a mental or physical illness does not have value because he or she may not be able to do good? Just another wrinkle I am throwing out there if “performance” is your yardstick on worth. 🙂. Inquiring minds want to know. Honestly being on an SSRI has been such a game changer….case in point, before the SSRI, I would have taken your rebuttal personally…would have gotten mad or felt embarrassed….but now I have capacity to “pause” and access “logic” versus staying stuck in “emotion”. It has helped with all areas of my life…work, hobbies, friends…as well as being able to give myself and others a lot more grace. |
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 21, 2023 23:34:45 GMT
krolle…before you respond…see updates. 🙂
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Post by seeking on Mar 22, 2023 0:56:58 GMT
I assure you the aloneness is temporary. Nature abhors a vacuum. You’re out there doing things. With practice, and the ability to sort the wheat from the chaff, people do come. Thanks for this reminder. Last night one of the friends I mentioned and I had a couple exchanges, and it just all felt so toxic and really hit on one my original wounds which is my father not respecting boundaries, to where people throughout my life felt I had early sexual violations. Nothing I recall -- but this person just made comments again about why can't we just talk on the phone, please. And I know once I get on the phone, there will be more demands, and more. Until I just don't exist, feel swallowed whole. My needs/boundaries/preferences, "no," doesn't matter. Or is met with resentment and passive aggressive comments. So I kept the boundary. I was torn inside - I'm her friend, go ahead and call her. But I told myself, I'm not sure if I'm her friend.... and that's when it hit me, I may lose another "friend," -- And the grief and sadness overtook me. I was at last alone with myself, still. No distractions. <----- This is the place I think many codependents avoid. And here I was. It was sort of sickening. But I had to have some kind of faith that it was okay. I'd read enough, learned enough, believed enough that all the coping strategies in the world were just that - coping and managing and when that was happening, real healing couldn't take place. So it was full sobriety. And it was awful. But I saw how much I rely on these coping strategies. How certain relationships can distract me from my own stuff--unprocessed trauma, pain, unresolved issues. I think that's why I get so triggered or see this as shadow work b/c I'm annoyed with other people for not doing their work, and seemingly relying on me as a distraction. Meanwhile . . . . Anyway. More healing. But this has been such a transformative thread for me. |
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Post by mrob on Mar 22, 2023 1:16:40 GMT
Goodness, seeking. I feel that. I didn’t have many friends as a young bloke. It’s called neurodivergence now, but 40 years ago I was lucky to go to a mainstream school. Every relationship - friendship, acquaintance was treasured. Problem was I had no idea what to do. How to maintain them. When they went, and they invariably did, I felt like my soul had been ripped out again and again. I feel that wound. Know that it’s better on the other side. It won’t always be like this. You’re in the right place. |
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Post by krolle on Mar 22, 2023 2:16:30 GMT
krolle…before you respond…see updates. 🙂 Is "updates" a thread title? Apologies if that's naiive or forgetful of me. Im glad you have found some peace in the SSRI. I'm considering starting one, being that I'v been depressed as long as I can remember. But my natural state is opposite to yours. I am trapped more logical and have very little access to emotion. So I'v been worried they might have a negative effect on me. Also, whilst I applaud your mature response. I think interpreting mine as a rebuttal, or at least a hostile one is perhaps miscommunication on my part. You should see my endless rebuttals as a genuine curiosity to understand, there's no hostility on my part. When you imagine me giving rebuttals, as I am prone to do, think of me as you would a child trying to make sense of your inner world, but struggling to do so, and repeatly asking questions. Regarding your other comment, then I would say certainly that mentally or physically disabled people can have a lot of value. I have seen many, including some of my best friends demonstrate enormous value... to a cause, or a person or even a pet. But again this is through their behaviour and actions, not intrinsically. |
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