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Post by alexandra on Jul 9, 2023 23:34:36 GMT
But I also know that she's so incredibly misguided. That's where the trap kicks in of wanting to make her aware of her attachment issues. Because if she would just see them for what they truly are, we could avoid this whole mess and just work on things together. But it just doesn't work that way. I almost prefer narcissists to FAs because I at least know that they are aware in a lot of cases of the emotional pain they cause to people. There's an aspect of fantasy to this for an AP, the idea of if this fundamental thing could change about the other person then we could work together and everything would be better. I'm glad you already recognize that it doesn't work that way, because it doesn't. Each person is on their own path and unless you're at the exact same point in your process at the exact same time, it's not really something you can work through together with someone. It's very individual, related to your own set of trauma, which means she could probably say the same thing about you: if you could see whatever it is that bothers her about you for what it is, you could avoid this whole mess too! That's the anxious-avoidant trap. There's just different needs involved. I understand, because I've been in this AP mindset. Something that once stuck with me years ago was when I described a situation with my on and off FA ex to a platonic friend I didn't realize was also FA because I was still unaware. So since he was FA too he thought differently than me and brought some different insight. His response was, what you're really saying is he'd have to be an entirely different person for this to work. I wasn't fully sure how to process or incorporate it when he said it, but it stayed in the back of my mind because I knew there was something to it even if I didn't fully understand it yet. And that person, in retrospect, was entirely correct. Needing someone to be entirely different instead of simply who they are isn't fair. As an aside, I've dealt with clinical narcissists and I've dealt with FA. Narcissists are NOT easier to deal with. They can be very vindictive and still not aware of it in the way someone without a personality disorder is, because their lack of empathy means they don't see others as people and they aren't capable of really understanding the full picture of what they're doing because their brains don't work that way. Like, maybe they know they're hurting someone to get what they want, but they don't understand it fully because everything is through such a self-centered lens that's focused on control. They can't truly feel what it means, as they are without empathy. I think the bigger picture for dealing with either FA or NPD is, neither is what you're looking for, and it's up to you to have the boundaries to not get wrapped up in either of those dynamics. Intentional or not doesn't matter, because it explains what's going on but changes nothing about the dynamic. What matters is you just letting go of something that doesn't work for you if it's toxic. Easier said than done, but it makes situations like these a learning experience to get there. |
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Post by aeropro on Jul 9, 2023 23:36:59 GMT
He won't be happy that I engaged, I know that, lol. Only a few weeks ago I had told him that any feelings of longing or wanting her to reach out had faded and if she did I wouldn't likely respond. But, my puppo passing put me in a bad spot. It's not an excuse at all, that's honestly the main thing I want to bring up to him... is how to be stronger and maintain my own boundaries even during moments of duress. Yeh…it sounds like some insecurities were activated when your dog died…that makes sense. Grieving a pet can really move your nervous system out of whack and it is easy to forget that there are better people to reach out to besides an ex. E specially one who has an attachment issue of her own. It might actually be a good thing to write down some coping skills and safe people you can grieve with (friends, your therapist) because life has a way of throwing us some curve balls. I still have moments when I can go back to old patterns….learning new skills takes time. It's crazy, isn't it? I feel I've made so much progress, but then the past few days it feels that I've reverted to ground-zero. But I know that's not true. In a way, it does validate sometimes how it's best to walk away from situations. Including the relationship that's the topic of this thread. 40+ years of this? If that's the goal? It's just not sustainable with this level of attachment incompatibility. Even with being an aware AA with my own tendencies, my schtick is that it's much easier to just be aware and avoid (ironic language, I know) insecure partners that are going to trigger me than to ever try to make it work. Because, cripes, being triggered is just not fun. But it also makes me aware of what happens when other attachment types are triggered - there's nothing they can really do about it if they're unaware, just like me. |
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 9, 2023 23:48:24 GMT
Yeh…it sounds like some insecurities were activated when your dog died…that makes sense. Grieving a pet can really move your nervous system out of whack and it is easy to forget that there are better people to reach out to besides an ex. E specially one who has an attachment issue of her own. It might actually be a good thing to write down some coping skills and safe people you can grieve with (friends, your therapist) because life has a way of throwing us some curve balls. I still have moments when I can go back to old patterns….learning new skills takes time. It's crazy, isn't it? I feel I've made so much progress, but then the past few days it feels that I've reverted to ground-zero. But I know that's not true. In a way, it does validate sometimes how it's best to walk away from situations. Including the relationship that's the topic of this thread. 40+ years of this? If that's the goal? It's just not sustainable with this level of attachment incompatibility. Even with being an aware AA with my own tendencies, my schtick is that it's much easier to just be aware and avoid (ironic language, I know) insecure partners that are going to trigger me than to ever try to make it work. Because, cripes, being triggered is just not fun. But it also makes me aware of what happens when other attachment types are triggered - there's nothing they can really do about it if they're unaware, just like me. Yeh…I hear you on that….and the best way to “avoid” a relationship with an unaware insecure person is to become more aware of your own growth opportunities. Because the more you grow, the less attracted you will be to someone who is not a good fit. It is also a good idea to recognize that several members on these boards are AP, FA and we have at least 1 former DA who can help you to demystify certain behavior patterns. Just because the woman you were seeing was not aware of her issues….there are several FAs here who are actively working on theirs. |
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Post by aeropro on Jul 9, 2023 23:49:07 GMT
But I also know that she's so incredibly misguided. That's where the trap kicks in of wanting to make her aware of her attachment issues. Because if she would just see them for what they truly are, we could avoid this whole mess and just work on things together. But it just doesn't work that way. I almost prefer narcissists to FAs because I at least know that they are aware in a lot of cases of the emotional pain they cause to people. There's an aspect of fantasy to this for an AP, the idea of if this fundamental thing could change about the other person then we could work together and everything would be better. I'm glad you already recognize that it doesn't work that way, because it doesn't. Each person is on their own path and unless you're at the exact same point in your process at the exact same time, it's not really something you can work through together with someone. It's very individual, related to your own set of trauma, which means she could probably say the same thing about you: if you could see whatever it is that bothers her about you for what it is, you could avoid this whole mess too! That's the anxious-avoidant trap. There's just different needs involved. I understand, because I've been in this AP mindset. Something that once stuck with me years ago was when I described a situation with my on and off FA ex to a platonic friend I didn't realize was also FA because I was still unaware. So since he was FA too he thought differently than me and brought some different insight. His response was, what you're really saying is he'd have to be an entirely different person for this to work. I wasn't fully sure how to process or incorporate it when he said it, but it stayed in the back of my mind because I knew there was something to it even if I didn't fully understand it yet. And that person, in retrospect, was entirely correct. Needing someone to be entirely different instead of simply who they are isn't fair. As an aside, I've dealt with clinical narcissists and I've dealt with FA. Narcissists are NOT easier to deal with. They can be very vindictive and still not aware of it in the way someone without a personality disorder is, because their lack of empathy means they don't see others as people and they aren't capable of really understanding the full picture of what they're doing because their brains don't work that way. Like, maybe they know they're hurting someone to get what they want, but they don't understand it fully because everything is through such a self-centered lens that's focused on control. They can't truly feel what it means, as they are without empathy. I think the bigger picture for dealing with either FA or NPD is, neither is what you're looking for, and it's up to you to have the boundaries to not get wrapped up in either of those dynamics. Intentional or not doesn't matter, because it explains what's going on but changes nothing about the dynamic. What matters is you just letting go of something that doesn't work for you if it's toxic. Easier said than done, but it makes situations like these a learning experience to get there. Your first paragraph, alexandra, has been the greatest mountain that I've had to climb since I started therapy. That's exactly it. The potential is so amazing. The good times were so good. If only I could say, "Hey, I'm not going to leave you, I'm not going to smother you. You can speak up about your needs and I will respect them.", and her in turn, as you said, then what's there to worry about? But it's just not possible. It's a tough pill to swallow when we realize that the mountain we just climbed isn't the one we should have, and that it's another peak in the range that we're supposed to be on. It's so much easier to just plant ourselves at the top and wait for the winds of change to bring us happiness, but it's a falsity. We're much closer to happiness by descending the wrong mountain and taking a chance on another we know could bring us what we're looking for. But what if it doesn't? What if the mountain we're on is the best we're going to get? That's where the self-doubt, settling, and pain comes. It's also a shame that our brains operate the way that they do. You'd think that we had trauma in childhood our brains would say, "Hey! That was no fun, huh? Let's avoid situations like this so we can have healthier relationships!". But, rather they say, "Hey! That was no fun, huh? But we did survive this situation, right? We're okay! As long as keep repeating this situation, we'll survive!" I agree also that narcissists are not better than FAs at all. I believe FAs to be in many ways kind people. But, like me as an AP, it's their obligation to do the work to become aware so they can be good partners. Especially if they're in the dating scene and don't want to hurt people. I can say, fortunately, that I've behaved much more securely in recent years than in my past. |
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Post by aeropro on Jul 9, 2023 23:54:46 GMT
It's crazy, isn't it? I feel I've made so much progress, but then the past few days it feels that I've reverted to ground-zero. But I know that's not true. In a way, it does validate sometimes how it's best to walk away from situations. Including the relationship that's the topic of this thread. 40+ years of this? If that's the goal? It's just not sustainable with this level of attachment incompatibility. Even with being an aware AA with my own tendencies, my schtick is that it's much easier to just be aware and avoid (ironic language, I know) insecure partners that are going to trigger me than to ever try to make it work. Because, cripes, being triggered is just not fun. But it also makes me aware of what happens when other attachment types are triggered - there's nothing they can really do about it if they're unaware, just like me. Yeh…I hear you on that….and the best way to “avoid” a relationship with an unaware insecure person is to become more aware of your own growth opportunities. Because the more you grow, the less attracted you will be to someone who is not a good fit. It is also a good idea to recognize that several members on these boards are AP, FA and we have at least 1 former DA who can help you to demystify certain behavior patterns. Just because the woman you were seeing was not aware of her issues….there are several FAs here who are actively working on theirs. I agree with that for sure. I've never been in a "toxic" relationship before, but my last LTR was four years ago. Since then, I've only encountered insecures, and unfortunately I haven't been as strong as I thought I would be to disengage. This situation moreso in particular, because I wasn't aware of what FA was and thought I was secure dealing with an AP.... where in truth I was an AP dealing with an FA. The problem is how incredibly small the dating pool can be when you're secure or an aware insecure who is ready and willing to pull your weight and looking for the same. Adding to that, I'm a male INFJ personality type which is said to be the most rare! I thought it'd be a lot more fun being such a gem (jk)  . I already feel a bit alone on an island with the types of people I'm attracted to (in terms of hobbies, interests, etc.). That's what made this situation so difficult. She and I had a lot of those intangibles in line that I've been looking for. But attachment incompatibilities seem to trump everything else. |
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Post by alexandra on Jul 10, 2023 0:40:51 GMT
But attachment incompatibilities seem to trump everything else. I learned the hard way that this is extremely true. However, AP also get caught up in a scarcity mentality, that there's very few people out there for them. There aren't many secure or aware people on online dating, but there are some. And there are others out there in general. There is a numbers game aspect to it, but dating got a lot easier for me when I was able to internalize a more open attitude. A first date was just an opportunity to get to know someone a bit and see if we connect and wanted a second meeting to continue to get to know each other, rather than any investment or getting too into the idea of potential (maybe this one will be the one!). I've said this before, but my experience was maybe a third of people available were secure, and then a third of those were actually compatible with me in terms of interests and physical attraction etc. So it wasn't a huge percentage, but it also only takes one person. If I kept meeting people and walking away from the ones it wasn't working somewhat easily, then it didn't feel like brutal time wasting, though it still got frustrating to need to keep at meeting new people when I was busier and didn't have so much time to do so or needed a break. But it eventually worked out. |
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Post by aeropro on Jul 10, 2023 1:19:00 GMT
But attachment incompatibilities seem to trump everything else. I learned the hard way that this is extremely true. However, AP also get caught up in a scarcity mentality, that there's very few people out there for them. There aren't many secure or aware people on online dating, but there are some. And there are others out there in general. There is a numbers game aspect to it, but dating got a lot easier for me when I was able to internalize a more open attitude. A first date was just an opportunity to get to know someone a bit and see if we connect and wanted a second meeting to continue to get to know each other, rather than any investment or getting too into the idea of potential (maybe this one will be the one!). I've said this before, but my experience was maybe a third of people available were secure, and then a third of those were actually compatible with me in terms of interests and physical attraction etc. So it wasn't a huge percentage, but it also only takes one person. If I kept meeting people and walking away from the ones it wasn't working somewhat easily, then it didn't feel like brutal time wasting, though it still got frustrating to need to keep at meeting new people when I was busier and didn't have so much time to do so or needed a break. But it eventually worked out. I'm glad it worked out for you. It is tough out there, certainly. Online dating is how I met the ex in question, and I've been encouraged to "get out" more and meet more people organically. Being introverted and working remote doesn't help, but I'm going to entertain some ideas in the next few months. I just didn't want to over-do anything on the heels of this experience as it caught me off guard and has taken longer than expected to really come to terms with how it ended and how human nature is. It's world-view altering, to be honest. Like the first 34 years of my life have been through a lens of innocence and ignorance. It just taking "that one" is something I try to focus on too. Even with the ex in question, though it didn't work out, she popped up one day and we matched and on the story went. It changed my whole life in a moment. Meeting people is certainly tougher now-a-days, ironically enough since we're so much more interconnected. |
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Post by mrob on Jul 10, 2023 12:54:13 GMT
Just want to say that I think you handled it well considering you didn’t want to go there again anyway, but I don’t think her response is surprising in the slightest.
At some low point she’ll think about that. The seed has been planted.
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Post by aeropro on Jul 10, 2023 14:46:50 GMT
Just want to say that I think you handled it well considering you didn’t want to go there again anyway, but I don’t think her response is surprising in the slightest. At some low point she’ll think about that. The seed has been planted. Thank you. I truly hope that her experience with me proves to be fruitful in the end. Even though I think she had blocked me, I still sent her a text saying that I didn't hate her and only wished her the best on finding a healthy path in life that will bring her abundance. But, I think she needs to have people who confront her about these blunders, or at the very least give their feedback as I did. I know it's not necessarily my obligation, but if her family (she doesn't have any friends) doesn't intervene and help or provide feedback, then what shot does she have? She'll just keep self-rationalizing everything and demonizing anyone healthy in her life. It's like this painful cycle of a self-fulfilling prophecy of sabotage. What a burden. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2023 15:24:10 GMT
Just want to say that I think you handled it well considering you didn’t want to go there again anyway, but I don’t think her response is surprising in the slightest. At some low point she’ll think about that. The seed has been planted. Thank you. I truly hope that her experience with me proves to be fruitful in the end. Even though I think she had blocked me, I still sent her a text saying that I didn't hate her and only wished her the best on finding a healthy path in life that will bring her abundance. But, I think she needs to have people who confront her about these blunders, or at the very least give their feedback as I did. I know it's not necessarily my obligation, but if her family (she doesn't have any friends) doesn't intervene and help or provide feedback, then what shot does she have? She'll just keep self-rationalizing everything and demonizing anyone healthy in her life. It's like this painful cycle of a self-fulfilling prophecy of sabotage. What a burden. Her path is truly not your business. Altruistic intentions are understandable, but it's really not your place to preach. Here you are, caught in a toxic dynamic to some extent yourself, no? You aren't free. You aren't there. Sure, you're working on it, but your timeline isn't superior to hers, it's just different. You don't know what experiences she needs in order to become ready... you hit your bottom but she hasn't hit hers and the process is individual. Many people look back and learn a lot from their patterns, the patterns themselves. Those patterns have an impact, and wear down specific defenses. You sound condescending, and as though you are focusing on her and what she needs to do as a knee jerk reaction to your own regrets and your own insecure behavior. Put your eyes back on your own paper and stop preaching, you're just another insecure person on the planet and you have no room to judge. You have no idea what the imapct of any of your insecure actions have been. You have no idea how you may have triggered people involved with you. You may think that with all your good intentions, you've done no harm. But you can't speak to that, you can't assume that your insecurity has bruised you alone. Just stop. Platitudes are a symptom of your own misplaced energy as an AP. Keep plugging along til you have nothing to confess to your therapist, and be well, move into a future that brings you abundance instead of circling around an ex you were involved with for a stunningly short time for all this rumination. That's all it is... your preoccupation with a toxic partner you moved too quickly with. Don't forget that. |
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Post by aeropro on Jul 10, 2023 15:43:50 GMT
Thank you. I truly hope that her experience with me proves to be fruitful in the end. Even though I think she had blocked me, I still sent her a text saying that I didn't hate her and only wished her the best on finding a healthy path in life that will bring her abundance. But, I think she needs to have people who confront her about these blunders, or at the very least give their feedback as I did. I know it's not necessarily my obligation, but if her family (she doesn't have any friends) doesn't intervene and help or provide feedback, then what shot does she have? She'll just keep self-rationalizing everything and demonizing anyone healthy in her life. It's like this painful cycle of a self-fulfilling prophecy of sabotage. What a burden. Her path is truly not your business. Altruistic intentions are understandable, but it's really not your place to preach. Here you are, caught in a toxic dynamic to some extent yourself, no? You aren't free. You aren't there. Sure, you're working on it, but your timeline isn't superior to hers, it's just different. You don't know what experiences she needs in order to become ready... you hit your bottom but she hasn't hit hers and the process is individual. Many people look back and learn a lot from their patterns, the patterns themselves. Those patterns have an impact, and wear down specific defenses. You sound condescending, and as though you are focusing on her and what she needs to do as a knee jerk reaction to your own regrets and your own insecure behavior. Put your eyes back on your own paper and stop preaching, you're just another insecure person on the planet and you have no room to judge. You have no idea what the imapct of any of your insecure actions have been. You have no idea how you may have triggered people involved with you. You may think that with all your good intentions, you've done no harm. But you can't speak to that, you can't assume that your insecurity has bruised you alone. Just stop. Platitudes are a symptom of your own misplaced energy as an AP. Keep plugging along til you have nothing to confess to your therapist, and be well, move into a future that brings you abundance instead of circling around an ex you were involved with for a stunningly short time for all this rumination. That's all it is... your preoccupation with a toxic partner you moved too quickly with. Don't forget that. How she treated me is my business. Her reaching out to me was my business. I'm not preaching, I'm seeking guidance and counsel through others who have experienced similar circumstances so I can learn and grow. I was caught in a toxic situation, absolutely, but my intentions were pure. I came into the dynamic ready to compromise and checked my baggage at the door. I don't doubt that she holds a lot of positive qualities - that is why I developed feelings for her. That is what made it hard to let go and led me to wanting to understand more about myself and seek therapy. The difference again, however, is self-awareness and personal accountability. I think that's what you're failing to acknowledge when trying to blur the line between me and someone who has unacknowledged issues. I'm not preaching - I'm pointing out fact. Without intervention or support her path becomes increasingly more difficult. Does that mean she won't heal or mature into more healthy behaviors on her own accord? Absolutely not. But I wouldn't bet on it. Would you? It's your prerogative to view my experience through your own lens, but you have no standing to tell me to "just stop", respectfully. You say I sound condescending, yet deliver an incredibly condescending remark to me in your next paragraph. Who are you to judge me, barring your same logic? As I said, my intentions have always been honest and pure. And not in a "my truth", sort of way. That's cop-out language. I acknowledge my shortcomings, admit my faults, and have the capacity to apologize to others if my own behaviors have impacted them. You're right - I don't know of all the subtle pains I've delivered to others. But I'm self-aware enough to know that those instances are few and far between, and if they're brought to my attention, I apologize and own up to them. Thank you, nonetheless. Your feedback is appreciated. I am on the right path. I had moved on from this individual until they reached out to me, and I again sought counsel so I can best navigate the situation. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2023 16:01:53 GMT
Keep going, you'll get there. This is part of the AP process for sure.
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 10, 2023 19:06:28 GMT
I think though that introvert has a point…..you are going down a path of “her” again which is not really conducive to your own healing journey. You have your therapy appointment coming up so that is where you can bid your good bye to anything that has to do with her and look forward to what is in front of you. 🙂
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Post by aeropro on Jul 10, 2023 19:39:26 GMT
I think though that introvert has a point…..you are going down a path of “her” again which is not really conducive to your own healing journey. You have your therapy appointment coming up so that is where you can bid your good bye to anything that has to do with her and look forward to what is in front of you. 🙂 Yes, definitely. It does feel like a form of PTSD going through something like this, though I have made great progress. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2023 20:01:26 GMT
I think though that introvert has a point…..you are going down a path of “her” again which is not really conducive to your own healing journey. You have your therapy appointment coming up so that is where you can bid your good bye to anything that has to do with her and look forward to what is in front of you. 🙂 Yes, definitely. It does feel like a form of PTSD going through something like this, though I have made great progress. You HAVE made progress. Looping in conversation about what she needs to do slows that down and is where AP tend to shoot themselves in the foot. Everyone here wants to support you in taking care of your own issues, and one issue that AP's have is repeatedly pointing the finger at someone else. She isn't absolved, everyone can sympathize with how bad this has sucked for you. But she isn't here, and she's none of our business, it's fruitless to mention what she should, could, might do. It's absolutely without any consequence to your recovery, it doesn't matter as much as you think it might. Not trying to muzzle you, you can go on about whatever you like, truly! Feedback is just that, take it or leave it. Best of luck as move forward! |
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