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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 13:30:23 GMT
i charge for love psychic services , but for a small fee (payable through paypal) , i would be happy to reiterate to you that the only way to know what your EX is thinking is to open the channel and ask them directly and listen carefully to what they have to say. š¬ Haha, you do know that you will never hear the truth about such "weaknesses" from a DA? He would rather die than to admit to anything close to this.
So I need to read between the lines, why doe he tell me repeatedly, every message, that he is working 14 hours a day? It is crazy...is it to tell me to bugger off, he is too busy to even send a one minute text, or is it a cry for help?
I just told you i charge for love psychic services, and you don't need to read between the lines you need to understand that i meant exactly what i said. are you willing to pay me to join in your rumination and guessing? if not, don't ask me stuff like this.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 13:34:28 GMT
Um, ok, other Avoidants (except Juniper) out there might venture a guess?
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Post by goldilocks on Jun 13, 2018 14:37:09 GMT
i do not feel an absence of emotional pain. the difference for me as a da (on border with secure) is that i don't ruminate or obsesses. i don't numb. i don't avoid it. i deal with it. the absence of rumination and obsession does not mean there is an absence of pain. there is a different way of dealing with it. This. I can feel sad, angry or dissapointed. I don't regurgitate the pain. I feel it once and then let is go soon after.
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Post by goldilocks on Jun 13, 2018 14:40:46 GMT
Um, ok, other Avoidants (except Juniper) out there might venture a guess? I could venture, but I'd have to charge... ;-p No undercutters here!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 14:41:56 GMT
i do not feel an absence of emotional pain. the difference for me as a da (on border with secure) is that i don't ruminate or obsesses. i don't numb. i don't avoid it. i deal with it. the absence of rumination and obsession does not mean there is an absence of pain. there is a different way of dealing with it. This. I can feel sad, angry or dissapointed. I don't regurgitate the pain. I feel it once and then let is go soon after. my perspective is that pain is a problem to be solved, like any other problem. i don't consider it an unchangeable state that i must submit to, with no reprieve, with no way out. i have the motivation to find an effective way out. this is not escapism at all- as i am aware that if i don't find a way to resolve the issues causing pain they will return again and again and waste my vitality.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 14:50:31 GMT
Um, ok, other Avoidants (except Juniper) out there might venture a guess? I could venture, but I'd have to charge... ;-p No undercutters here! we could make a partnership, we might be onto something here š¤
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 13, 2018 14:52:29 GMT
i charge for love psychic services , but for a small fee (payable through paypal) , i would be happy to reiterate to you that the only way to know what your EX is thinking is to open the channel and ask them directly and listen carefully to what they have to say. š¬ Haha, you do know that you will never hear the truth about such "weaknesses" from a DA? He would rather die than to admit to anything close to this.
So I need to read between the lines, why doe he tell me repeatedly, every message, that he is working 14 hours a day? It is crazy...is it to tell me to bugger off, he is too busy to even send a one minute text, or is it a cry for help?
I am not a DA..but it could very well just be a "guy" thing..and he may simply be telling you that his work is his priority for those 14 hours. I am learning that men can only focus on one thing at a time whereas women can "multitask"..so sometimes it is as simple as just information sharing...but obviously I don't know him so I don't know how he was before..just offering up an option outside of attachment styles.
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Post by mrob on Jun 13, 2018 15:52:22 GMT
i do not feel an absence of emotional pain. the difference for me as a da (on border with secure) is that i don't ruminate or obsesses. i don't numb. i don't avoid it. i deal with it. the absence of rumination and obsession does not mean there is an absence of pain. there is a different way of dealing with it. This. I can feel sad, angry or dissapointed. I don't regurgitate the pain. I feel it once and then let is go soon after. And thatās the difference between DA and FA. I do the crappy AP stuff, and the worst of the DA stuff.
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Post by ocarina on Jun 13, 2018 17:07:47 GMT
From personal experience yes - but absence of pain often translates to absence of other emotions including joy and wonder. I do sometimes think that APs bring emotional pain upon themselves by clinging to painful relationships. Pain in life is inevitable but suffering is a choice - can't remember who said that but wise words..... I wanted to respond to this..but I wanted to wait until I could do so from an adult, reflective perspective. I am not going to be a poster child for APs, but for me...that "suffering" that you say is optional and self inflected...I agree that to someone from the outside looking in, that is exactly what it looks like...but to me, to my own process...it does not "feel" like a choice...it feels no more like a choice then when I experienced the pain of rejection from my mom when I was very, very young. When I am in a place which looks like "suffering" to others, oftentimes I realize that I was simply in a repressed state...a very young state where there are not a lot of "options" and the options that were available (fantasizing, obssessing, checking, questioning, ruminating, hyper focusing, crying etc etc) all look like self inflicted suffering to someone who has a lot more adult options at his/her disposal. This is a very important step for me, believe it or not. Too often, I have agreed with others and ended up very angry with myself over my actions that seem so...crazy, detrimental, harmful..but really, when I see them how they are..they are simply coping skills of a very young girl. Like me/dislike me...this is where I am...this is my truth. This is where I get to be vunerable. Now, I am working on this...more so by being aware that it happened and by giving myself grace and permission to be exactly who I am. It is a process but I believe that awareness is half the battle. Apologies for my clumsy expression - I understand that it very much doesn't feel like a choice to any human whether to suffer or not - but all of us must have hope that suffering is optional and by this I mean that the damage we do to ourselves in our minds often far exceeds the actual events that caused the harm. Our mind is something over which we do have control - or at least we can learn to tame the beast whilst we have no way of changing our past or the behaviour of others towards us. As we all recognise these mental patterns become our reality and then it's difficult to live outside of them - on the anxious front we cling and on the avoidant end we push away - both of these are suffering but with awareness and acceptance I hope that most of us feel that there is hope that the suffering will end - even though life is inherently painful. Not sure if that makes any more sense now but again - sorry I did not mean to dismiss your experience Tnr9
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Post by ocarina on Jun 13, 2018 17:17:08 GMT
Reflecting on this a little more - perhaps when suffering does become a choice, we begin to experience real freedom. Not freedom from painful experience but freedom of choice as to whether to cling to the pain/ refuse to experience the pain - or sit with the pain and let it run its course in order to live outside of the shackles of our past.
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 13, 2018 18:42:22 GMT
Reflecting on this a little more - perhaps when suffering does become a choice, we begin to experience real freedom. Not freedom from painful experience but freedom of choice as to whether to cling to the pain/ refuse to experience the pain - or sit with the pain and let it run its course in order to live outside of the shackles of our past. I think this is true..but to get there..at least for me...it is being aware of when it does not feel like a choice and to have great compassion for that little girl for whom choice seemed so elusive. Also...I loved your post Ocarina..it really allowed me to consider the..is it truly a choice question and that in itself was freeing.š Honestly..as I wrote my response, it was with this amazing acceptance of myself and where I am....something that I did not receive growing up. Speaking my truth and being ok with it is a huge victory.
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Post by notalone on Jun 13, 2018 18:52:40 GMT
From personal experience yes - but absence of pain often translates to absence of other emotions including joy and wonder. I do sometimes think that APs bring emotional pain upon themselves by clinging to painful relationships. Pain in life is inevitable but suffering is a choice - can't remember who said that but wise words..... I wanted to respond to this..but I wanted to wait until I could do so from an adult, reflective perspective. I am not going to be a poster child for APs, but for me...that "suffering" that you say is optional and self inflected...I agree that to someone from the outside looking in, that is exactly what it looks like...but to me, to my own process...it does not "feel" like a choice...it feels no more like a choice then when I experienced the pain of rejection from my mom when I was very, very young. When I am in a place which looks like "suffering" to others, oftentimes I realize that I was simply in a repressed state...a very young state where there are not a lot of "options" and the options that were available (fantasizing, obssessing, checking, questioning, ruminating, hyper focusing, crying etc etc) all look like self inflicted suffering to someone who has a lot more adult options at his/her disposal. This is a very important step for me, believe it or not. Too often, I have agreed with others and ended up very angry with myself over my actions that seem so...crazy, detrimental, harmful..but really, when I see them how they are..they are simply coping skills of a very young girl. Like me/dislike me...this is where I am...this is my truth. This is where I get to be vunerable. Now, I am working on this...more so by being aware that it happened and by giving myself grace and permission to be exactly who I am. It is a process but I believe that awareness is half the battle. Iām currently working on changing my attachment style, itās very painful, and Iām reading and learning a ton. This is where Iām coming fromā¦ The dictionary definition of suffering isnāt much different than that of pain. But for arguments sake letās assume pain is not optional, suffering is optional, and suffering occurs when one makes choices that sustains pain. From that point of view, this is my take on whether āAPs bring emotional pain upon themselves by clinging to painful relationshipsā and āchoose sufferingā. In order to choose an option a person has to be aware that the option exists. AP responses are survival instincts that develop when some babies arenāt given the nurturing they need, since babies that arenāt nurtured enough can die. These responses are not a choice, but rather an instinct that occurs before a person is capable of making a choice. OPTION 1 ā Cling or let go Clinging to painful relationships is a choice that is hurtful without a doubt. But for an AP choosing to let go is also incredibly painful. I honestly donāt know whatās more painful. I spent most of my life knowing my responses were out of proportion to the circumstance around having to detach. Manifesting in a feeling of dread in my body, detaching and being alone often feels as though Iām standing on the edge of a cliff and someone is holding a gun to my head, screaming at me to jump. The pain and terror can be more intense than I can describe. This confused me to no end, drove me to believe I was a totally broken person, and ultimately unlovable. Although letting go allowed me to move on eventually, the pattern repeated over and over. I seriously asked myself whether staying in a relationship, letting go, or giving up on love altogether was more painful. And the truth is, I think they are all equally painful to an AP, and none are sustainable or healthy. Itās only this year that I came to learn what I now believe, that the only chance an AP has for lessening pain in a sustainable way and moving towards healthy relationships is by working on changing their responses and attachment style. If an AP is unaware that their attachment style is the root of the issue, they canāt change it, the option to make a choice that ends pain is not available, so no, in this way they are not choosing to suffer. Option 2 ā Changing your attachment style Having been this way almost forever, I think many people believe these responses are an unchangeable part of who they are. I have been in therapy more often than not during my life but itās only this year, after 27 years of experiencing this, that I learned that both my emotional and physical responses are a result of trauma I experienced as a baby, when I feared that my life was truly in danger. If a person learns that AP responses are the result of trauma and can be changed, they have a choice to work towards change. But attachment styles and mental health are so complicated, deeply engrained, take time to heal, and sadly full healing often doesnāt occur despite best efforts. Also, the pain this work brings up is often so overwhelming that people turn away from doing the work in order to survive. In the not so distant past it was not uncommon for people who did therapy to kill themselves because the pain it brought up was so extreme. Thatās why therapies today include a variety of coping skills to regulate emotions, as well as methods to uncover root issues, and cognitive strategies to change beliefs. But the hard reality is that healing is still not guaranteed and the process is still incredibly painful. If an AP is aware that their attachment style is the root of the issue, they can work to change it, and eventually they may feel less pain. The pain will still be extreme until things change, and the work involved in making the changes can be excruciating, but there is a chance to alter the pattern. The option to make a choice that might reduce the pain is available, but not guaranteed, so they can choose to risk the pain involved with ending the pain in the hopes of preventing sustained āsufferingā. In conclusion, initial AP responses are not a choice any more than the trauma experienced by any person that has been to war, raped, etc. If a person is not aware that their responses are the result of trauma, they will not know their options, and they canāt select an option they donāt know about. If they do become aware of the trauma, they can do the certainly painful work, in the hopes of changing their attachment style, lessening the pain, and preventing āsufferingā. As I mentioned, Iāve chosen to work on my attachment style, Iām going through that process right now, and itās the hardest thing Iāve ever done.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 1:54:20 GMT
I'm going to trust my instinct/logic and worry about exDA - no one can work 60 hours a week for months now and not suffer adverse effects, and these are hours that are close to those that lead to karoshi. He has reiterated 5 times about overworking in his text messages to me, which of course raised my concern and alarm. He has the choice not to work these hours, he is the boss, and if nothing is wrong he would simply text me that he is doing fine in his work without mentioning the hours in every message. So I'm going to do an "AP" and go with my own thoughts this time, keep an eye out for him, as we do care for each other. Thanks guys. notaloneIt seems you are sure about what you are about and have decided on how you would go about addressing/not addressing your issues, showing total control, which is great. In that case, what do you hope as an outcome for yourself posting here, since you have your answers and are unlikely to be swayed by differing opinions? What kind of knowledge would you like to access that are not already in the older threads?
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flic
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Post by flic on Jun 14, 2018 2:01:28 GMT
In conclusion, initial AP responses are not a choice any more than the trauma experienced by any person that has been to war, raped, etc. If a person is not aware that their responses are the result of trauma, they will not know their options, and they canāt select an option they donāt know about. If they do become aware of the trauma, they can do the certainly painful work, in the hopes of changing their attachment style, lessening the pain, and preventing āsufferingā. As I mentioned, Iāve chosen to work on my attachment style, Iām going through that process right now, and itās the hardest thing Iāve ever done. I've only posted your conclusion here notalone but I think all the points you make are excellent. I completely agree that the responses of APs are not a choice, and changing the responses to triggers is the only way to lessen the pain, and therefore the suffering. I don't think these responses can change just by people telling an AP to work on themselves (though awareness is obviously the first step). Maybe it's because that often leads to APs trying to intellectualise why they do what they do. I believe that is actually one of the main reasons APs ruminate so much - they're trying to intellectualise something that can't be solved by thinking. For unaware DAs i imagine it's the opposite - they don't ruminate, but instead trap the pain before it becomes too conscious. Both feel pain, both are unhealthy ways of releasing it (or not). Like you, i believe getting to the root of the trauma and repairing it is the only real way to prevent suffering (or at least decrease it). I'm currently undertaking Somatic Experiencing therapy which uses a bottom up (body before cognition) approach and it's incredible what insights come up simply by recognising the bodily responses to perceived threats. The premise here is that the body is the first to react to the situation that triggers trauma, and the mind is then interpreting this response and building a story from it, then the emotional release occurs. So recognising the bodily responses allows us to intercept them before the mind builds that story. It happens in a split second though, which is why therapy is usually needed to help slow down and re-wire the response What it has helped me conclude is that i can't control the responses (body) at the moment, and probably won't be able to for a while. Like notalone said, working on changing attachment style is hard work and it brings up a lot of emotion and pain. However, I personally think there's another approach that can help deal with the mind (top down) until one has properly worked on the trauma. Avoiding triggers and being really honest about what those triggers are. This is where i DO think APs choose to suffer. When we check our exes social media, when we spend hours ruminating over what certain texts mean or don't mean, when we calculate how long since they've been online and build a story about why, when we talk to our exes to get that hit of dopamine and then feel awful later and replay the conversation in our minds. These ARE choices that are causing suffering because they aren't being made from the place of the trauma (though I acknowledge they are being made by the part of us that experienced the trauma), they are being decided upon and causing a reaction in the body and then the mind. The trauma itself can't make you interact with someone or check their social media. I used to believe that the best time to work on one's triggers is when we are triggered, but I'm revising my position on this. Unless you are prepared to simply accept what is (which is also a cognitive choice and can be cultivated through mindfulness, yoga etc) then you are putting yourself in situations where the trauma will be re-lived and you will build a story from it and then you will suffer. Buddhists believe that all suffering occurs in the mind. I'm not saying that acknowledging how triggers make us feel can't help us become more aware of ourselves, but if you're not also working on the trauma itself (and NOT by just analysing it), I'm not sure putting oneself in triggering situations will do anything but increase suffering. Just an idea I've been thinking about - feel free to rip it to shreds
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 2:33:38 GMT
In conclusion, initial AP responses are not a choice any more than the trauma experienced by any person that has been to war, raped, etc. If a person is not aware that their responses are the result of trauma, they will not know their options, and they canāt select an option they donāt know about. If they do become aware of the trauma, they can do the certainly painful work, in the hopes of changing their attachment style, lessening the pain, and preventing āsufferingā. As I mentioned, Iāve chosen to work on my attachment style, Iām going through that process right now, and itās the hardest thing Iāve ever done. I've only posted your conclusion here notalone but I think all the points you make are excellent. I completely agree that the responses of APs are not a choice, and changing the responses to triggers is the only way to lessen the pain, and therefore the suffering. I don't think these responses can change just by people telling an AP to work on themselves (though awareness is obviously the first step). Maybe it's because that often leads to APs trying to intellectualise why they do what they do. I believe that is actually one of the main reasons APs ruminate so much - they're trying to intellectualise something that can't be solved by thinking. For unaware DAs i imagine it's the opposite - they don't ruminate, but instead trap the pain before it becomes too conscious. Both feel pain, both are unhealthy ways of releasing it (or not). Like you, i believe getting to the root of the trauma and repairing it is the only real way to prevent suffering (or at least decrease it). I'm currently undertaking Somatic Experiencing therapy which uses a bottom up (body before cognition) approach and it's incredible what insights come up simply by recognising the bodily responses to perceived threats. The premise here is that the body is the first to react to the situation that triggers trauma, and the mind is then interpreting this response and building a story from it, then the emotional release occurs. So recognising the bodily responses allows us to intercept them before the mind builds that story. It happens in a split second though, which is why therapy is usually needed to help slow down and re-wire the response What it has helped me conclude is that i can't control the responses (body) at the moment, and probably won't be able to for a while. Like notalone said, working on changing attachment style is hard work and it brings up a lot of emotion and pain. However, I personally think there's another approach that can help deal with the mind (top down) until one has properly worked on the trauma. Avoiding triggers and being really honest about what those triggers are. This is where i DO think APs choose to suffer. When we check our exes social media, when we spend hours ruminating over what certain texts mean or don't mean, when we calculate how long since they've been online and build a story about why, when we talk to our exes to get that hit of dopamine and then feel awful later and replay the conversation in our minds. These ARE choices that are causing suffering because they aren't being made from the place of the trauma (though I acknowledge they are being made by the part of us that experienced the trauma), they are being decided upon and causing a reaction in the body and then the mind. The trauma itself can't make you interact with someone or check their social media. I used to believe that the best time to work on one's triggers is when we are triggered, but I'm revising my position on this. Unless you are prepared to simply accept what is (which is also a cognitive choice and can be cultivated through mindfulness, yoga etc) then you are putting yourself in situations where the trauma will be re-lived and you will build a story from it and then you will suffer. Buddhists believe that all suffering occurs in the mind. I'm not saying that acknowledging how triggers make us feel can't help us become more aware of ourselves, but if you're not also working on the trauma itself (and NOT by just analysing it), I'm not sure putting oneself in triggering situations will do anything but increase suffering. Just an idea I've been thinking about - feel free to rip it to shreds this is awesome
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