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Post by tnr9 on Jun 14, 2018 2:39:51 GMT
Hey flic...I am not going to rip your summation to shreds..because it is your truth and I honor it.. 🙂 There is no "one size fits all",no "one definate answer"...out journeys take unique paths and through these boards they have crossed...but our awareness and our healing...that is unique. I wish everyone on these boards, regardless of attachment style, well on his/her individual journey.❤️
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 3:10:21 GMT
It feels to me as if the same questions are posted by the same person in different threads over and over, in a very controlled manner. The site has changed so much, has become one-directional, and lost its diversity.
Sorry to see so many regulars not posting here anymore.
Hope it becomes normal again soon with the old diversity back. Until then! *wave*
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 13:06:17 GMT
For the APs here that cannot stop the rumination loop, there is a good reason why most posters understand that it is actually neurally and psychologically harmful to assist someone to remain in the stuck rumination cycle, and generally, instinctively prefer to stay away. Staying in rumination means going ever deeper into a negative cycle, the proverbial digging deeper into the depressive hole, yet it feels familiar because it resonates with past memories and the neural networks connected to those memories, to the point where it becomes an integrated identity, albeit a problematic one. The mind loves the familiar and rejects the unfamiliar, so anyone who is fiercely protective of self or own boundaries could see advice towards change to reach a better, more secure place as criticism, threats or rejection of self.
I think most of us have referred to this framework in varying forms.
It gets seriously out of hand when one fork is blocked, the ruminating person seeks other, multiple forks to resonate and amplify the rumination. Thus the issues that cause the relationship problems in one's life do not get resolved, and in fact will worsen with rumination, since rumination deepens and reinforce these very issues, leading to worse outcome in current and future relationships, leading to more woe, in a self-reinforcing feedback loop, etc. We all have our blind spot. Interacting with a forum of supportive anonymous strangers serves a great purpose - we receive quite objective feedback. Of course there will be outliers, but in general, a rather good consensus can reflect reality without the subjective "noise" of one's circle in real life. The best help when one is stuck should come from a therapist, as the fuller picture can be provided to a specialist who is trained in helping with specific issues. We are all amateurs, all of us with our issues and struggling to reach a better place ourselves, so our own insight are very much limited. However, as long as we learn, change and grow, we are on a good trajectory, whether its pace be faster or slower. It is when we choose not to break out of the negative cycle, even as we become aware of our blindspot, that it will be a never ending, ever deepening cycle. This gets reinforced as others' refusal to assist in rumination, seeing its harmful effects, is interpreted as rejection of self, and it triggers more anxiety and increased need for support of the state of rumination, which is conflated with self, and so on.
It isn't so much as DA detaching to lessen pain - it is the self-preservation instinct of everyone of all attachments styles swimming against the tide, knowing that if one doesn't move forward-upwards, there is no staying still, and one goes backwards-downwards.
It's a hard truth for those who prefer to remain in rumination, but even if this doesn't help some, it might be useful for others who come here with the same questions seeking answers.
www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/depression-management-techniques/201604/rumination-problem-in-anxiety-and-depression
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Post by notalone on Jun 14, 2018 13:08:00 GMT
I'm going to trust my instinct/logic and worry about exDA - no one can work 60 hours a week for months now and not suffer adverse effects, and these are hours that are close to those that lead to karoshi. He has reiterated 5 times about overworking in his text messages to me, which of course raised my concern and alarm. He has the choice not to work these hours, he is the boss, and if nothing is wrong he would simply text me that he is doing fine in his work without mentioning the hours in every message. So I'm going to do an "AP" and go with my own thoughts this time, keep an eye out for him, as we do care for each other. Thanks guys. notalone It seems you are sure about what you are about and have decided on how you would go about addressing/not addressing your issues, showing total control, which is great. In that case, what do you hope as an outcome for yourself posting here, since you have your answers and are unlikely to be swayed by differing opinions? What kind of knowledge would you like to access that are not already in the older threads?
I'm not entirely sure how to answer this. I think I'm trying to work things out for myself, and hearing other points of view adds insight. My initial post was about understanding how avoidants experience/or don't experience pain. That's all.
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Post by notalone on Jun 14, 2018 13:15:47 GMT
I've only posted your conclusion here notalone but I think all the points you make are excellent. I completely agree that the responses of APs are not a choice, and changing the responses to triggers is the only way to lessen the pain, and therefore the suffering. I don't think these responses can change just by people telling an AP to work on themselves (though awareness is obviously the first step). Maybe it's because that often leads to APs trying to intellectualise why they do what they do. I believe that is actually one of the main reasons APs ruminate so much - they're trying to intellectualise something that can't be solved by thinking. For unaware DAs i imagine it's the opposite - they don't ruminate, but instead trap the pain before it becomes too conscious. Both feel pain, both are unhealthy ways of releasing it (or not). Like you, i believe getting to the root of the trauma and repairing it is the only real way to prevent suffering (or at least decrease it). I'm currently undertaking Somatic Experiencing therapy which uses a bottom up (body before cognition) approach and it's incredible what insights come up simply by recognising the bodily responses to perceived threats. The premise here is that the body is the first to react to the situation that triggers trauma, and the mind is then interpreting this response and building a story from it, then the emotional release occurs. So recognising the bodily responses allows us to intercept them before the mind builds that story. It happens in a split second though, which is why therapy is usually needed to help slow down and re-wire the response What it has helped me conclude is that i can't control the responses (body) at the moment, and probably won't be able to for a while. Like notalone said, working on changing attachment style is hard work and it brings up a lot of emotion and pain. However, I personally think there's another approach that can help deal with the mind (top down) until one has properly worked on the trauma. Avoiding triggers and being really honest about what those triggers are. This is where i DO think APs choose to suffer. When we check our exes social media, when we spend hours ruminating over what certain texts mean or don't mean, when we calculate how long since they've been online and build a story about why, when we talk to our exes to get that hit of dopamine and then feel awful later and replay the conversation in our minds. These ARE choices that are causing suffering because they aren't being made from the place of the trauma (though I acknowledge they are being made by the part of us that experienced the trauma), they are being decided upon and causing a reaction in the body and then the mind. The trauma itself can't make you interact with someone or check their social media. I used to believe that the best time to work on one's triggers is when we are triggered, but I'm revising my position on this. Unless you are prepared to simply accept what is (which is also a cognitive choice and can be cultivated through mindfulness, yoga etc) then you are putting yourself in situations where the trauma will be re-lived and you will build a story from it and then you will suffer. Buddhists believe that all suffering occurs in the mind. I'm not saying that acknowledging how triggers make us feel can't help us become more aware of ourselves, but if you're not also working on the trauma itself (and NOT by just analysing it), I'm not sure putting oneself in triggering situations will do anything but increase suffering. Just an idea I've been thinking about - feel free to rip it to shreds Everything you said makes sense to me and seems very wise. My therapist is working with me with on recognizing how emotions come up in my body. I find it very hard, and feel very cut off from those responses. But I just keep trying to be open to it and do my best. Thank-you for sharing. I really appreciate it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 13:28:02 GMT
notalone, it's great your therapist is working on you with recognizing how emotions come up in your body. do you currently know what your emotions are, without knowing how they feel in your body? i am asking because my experience as an (formerly deeply dismissive) avoidant seems to be opposite, i historically have known my body sensations far ahead of understanding what feelings are manifesting. it took a dedicated process to know what my body was telling me, beyond an instinctive level of fight/flight/freeze. after a lot of paying attention and taking care of my feelings, really treating them as important and tending to them with compassion , i see that my body heart andbmind are much more integrated, and not keeping secrets from each other. i am curious to understand how this goes for you, do you consciously know you are sad before your body tells you? do you know you are angry, afraid, etc? i am conscious and aware of my feelings as they arise , for the most part, now- but for decades i felt something in my body and couldn't separate and identify what exactly it was- it was very blurry.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 13:31:46 GMT
I'm not entirely sure how to answer this. I think I'm trying to work things out for myself, and hearing other points of view adds insight. My initial post was about understanding how avoidants experience/or don't experience pain. That's all. I'm glad you got some good answers, actually we all suffer a lot of pain, but the faster we identify our state of pain, the faster we start instinctively "swimming" away from it, knowing that we can drown in it if we are not alert to the harmful effects of getting addicted to the lovesickness, and the addiction to the feeling.
The first thing all of us try to do is to try to see if we have blindspots, eg our attachment style, our unresolved issues, then change ourselves to see if it will improve the problematic dynamics, as it's difficult to change others.
If it is a futile exercise, the partner isn't in a place where they can compromise to make the relationship work, and we know we can't make someone change, or if the relationship has been stressed and shattered to the point where the ex can't muster up the will to get back together, we start to do what it takes to improve our prospects, i.e. give up on the futile and work on moving forward-upwards, learning from our mistakes.
It's like a bullet stuck in our side - it is extremely painful to pull it out and sew it up, it hurts less to let it remain, but it means that we might possibly painlessly bleed to death. So we choose to "bite the bullet", do the painful work of recovery, trying to make sense of it by posting on anonymous forum to learn and moving on to the healthier future relationship.
No magic to this, it's really about shouldering on, suffering greater pain now for future gain.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 13:31:57 GMT
i should add that severe ptsd impacted my nervous system and ability to process emotion also, that is a big piece of this but i understand that what i experienced is common to dismissive also, perhaps it occurs on a spectrum like everything else.
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Post by notalone on Jun 14, 2018 13:33:21 GMT
notalone , it's great your therapist is working on you with recognizing how emotions come up in your body. do you currently know what your emotions are, without knowing how they feel in your body? i am asking because my experience as an (formerly deeply dismissive) avoidant seems to be opposite, i historically have known my body sensations far ahead of understanding what feelings are manifesting. it took a dedicated process to know what my body was telling me, beyond an instinctive level of fight/flight/freeze. after a lot of paying attention and taking care of my feelings, really treating them as important and tending to them with compassion , i see that my body heart andbmind are much more integrated, and not keeping secrets from each other. i am curious to understand how this goes for you, do you consciously know you are sad before your body tells you? do you know you are angry, afraid, etc? i am conscious and aware of my feelings as they arise , for the most part, now- but for decades i felt something in my body and couldn't separate and identify what exactly it was- it was very blurry. Juniper - Yes, I'm very aware of my feelings. I hardly notice changes in my body. Even when my feelings are intense, and my therapist asks me what I feel in my body, I usually answer that I really don't know. I feel very cut off from my body.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 13:39:22 GMT
notalone , it's great your therapist is working on you with recognizing how emotions come up in your body. do you currently know what your emotions are, without knowing how they feel in your body? i am asking because my experience as an (formerly deeply dismissive) avoidant seems to be opposite, i historically have known my body sensations far ahead of understanding what feelings are manifesting. it took a dedicated process to know what my body was telling me, beyond an instinctive level of fight/flight/freeze. after a lot of paying attention and taking care of my feelings, really treating them as important and tending to them with compassion , i see that my body heart andbmind are much more integrated, and not keeping secrets from each other. i am curious to understand how this goes for you, do you consciously know you are sad before your body tells you? do you know you are angry, afraid, etc? i am conscious and aware of my feelings as they arise , for the most part, now- but for decades i felt something in my body and couldn't separate and identify what exactly it was- it was very blurry. Juniper - Yes, I'm very aware of my feelings. I hardly notice changes in my body. Even when my feelings are intense, and my therapist asks me what I feel in my body, I usually answer that I really don't know. I feel very cut off from my body. this is so fascinating to me, and so opposite of what i understand avoidants to experience. so, i want to encourage you. i have been able to heal to the point of awarensss of the whole experince if emotions; and to be able to work with them to really understand and transform them. Good for you for daring to delve into it all, the rewards are so rich. ❤️
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flic
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Post by flic on Jun 14, 2018 13:54:16 GMT
It feels to me as if the same questions are posted by the same person in different threads over and over, in a very controlled manner. The site has changed so much, has become one-directional, and lost its diversity.
Sorry to see so many regulars not posting here anymore.
Hope it becomes normal again soon with the old diversity back. Until then! *wave*
Um, sorry to ask but are you referring to me here curious? If so, I'm more than happy for you to call me out or message me directly if I've caused offence or upset you. I was simply trying to provide an alternate view on AP suffering - one i've been exploring theoretically and in therapy and am happy to have refuted! OP seemed to appreciate it so that's all that really matters Personally I feel there is a lot of diversity on the site - apologies if there are rules for people based on length of time on site that I'm not following. Always happy to be enlightened. Apologies if your comment wasn't directed at me - it wasn't clear. All the best!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 14:01:07 GMT
It feels to me as if the same questions are posted by the same person in different threads over and over, in a very controlled manner. The site has changed so much, has become one-directional, and lost its diversity.
Sorry to see so many regulars not posting here anymore.
Hope it becomes normal again soon with the old diversity back. Until then! *wave*
Um, sorry to ask but are you referring to me here curious? If so, I'm more than happy for you to call me out or message me directly if I've caused offence or upset you. I was simply trying to provide an alternate view on AP suffering - one i've been exploring theoretically and in therapy and am happy to have refuted! OP seemed to appreciate it so that's all that really matters Personally I feel there is a lot of diversity on the site - apologies if there are rules for people based on length of time on site that I'm not following. Always happy to be enlightened. Apologies if your comment wasn't directed at me - it wasn't clear. All the best! what it looks like to me is that @curious keeps bringing her exDA narrative into threads. we were taking about pain and how it is experienced and processed and then there was a bunch of stuff about her ex and her wanting to interpret it. but there are posters here understanding and participating on the topic. i think this thread is a great discussion and thanks notalone for posting it
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flic
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Post by flic on Jun 14, 2018 14:04:17 GMT
Everything you said makes sense to me and seems very wise. My therapist is working with me with on recognizing how emotions come up in my body. I find it very hard, and feel very cut off from those responses. But I just keep trying to be open to it and do my best. Thank-you for sharing. I really appreciate it. I felt the same actually. It's a really hard thing to do, tap into the responses of the body, when you're not used to doing it. I think as humans generally we have become so rationalising, we often forget about the body and its role going back to primitive times. But it's so great that you are trying, I hope you feel you are getting benefit from it. Good luck on your journey - it sounds like you're taking in so much learning! My therapist suggested reading Waking the Tiger and The Body Keeps the Score, if you fancy some more reading
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 14:15:59 GMT
so i have shared from where i am now, as an aware dismissive, and upon reading and reflection i can add more to explain a little bit of what it was like before i was aware. i feel that my ability to process pain and emotions now is a refinement and fine tuning, an evolution, of how i processed before.
maybe the best way to illustrate it is to give an example.
my insecure attachment style led me to choose partners who were painful and detrimental to me. as can be expected, possibly, my partners were on the other end of the spectrum, AP. some with comirbid vulnerable narcissism. protest behaviors were entacted against me to an extreme degree and were emotionally, psychologically, sexually, physically abusive.
i experienced intense pain, anger, (i can't recall much fear, more stock) disgust, etc- very very intense visceral feelings that i was unable to delve into other than to react to them to protect myself.
So, i did identify danger, and the associated feelings in my body. i felt very angry and was able to make a coping plan to address the feelings. even back then i was able to determine, that the treatment of me was harming me and i didn't deserve it, and i made efforts to make logistical choices around it in order to try to move myself to safety.
this happened on a more primal, survival level, but i can say that even though i could not identify the nuances of the experiences, and the feelings, they were intense and required my action. i did the best i could to take care of them. my growth and awareness over time has enabled me to come to a deep understanding of all the initial causes in my childhood, my learned coping, the more vulnerable feelings, the experience of more positive feelings like contentment, peace, joy, connection, etc... and ultimately all this work has resulted in me being able to recognize feelings as cues to pay attention to in order to direct my path toward what is good and beneficial and away from what is truly detrimental.
before awareness, i was unable to divert myself away from harm and was left just trying to cope with it once i was immersed.
now, my life is full of beneficial and healing elements rather than harmful and destructive elements and that is a result of knowing how to listen to and work with my feelings. it began in the body for me.
so, in short- the pain was always there, in a more instinctive sense. coping with it has evolved, but it always did demand some kind of coping and action.
there were a lot of periods of numbness and dissociation for me but i attribute that to serious CNS responses to grave trauma , PTSD, rather than to just dismissive attachment.
i cannot speak for any other avoidant but this has been true for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 14:19:46 GMT
I felt the same actually. It's a really hard thing to do, tap into the responses of the body, when you're not used to doing it. I think as humans generally we have become so rationalising, we often forget about the body and its role going back to primitive times. But it's so great that you are trying, I hope you feel you are getting benefit from it. Good luck on your journey - it sounds like you're taking in so much learning! My therapist suggested reading Waking the Tiger and The Body Keeps the Score, if you fancy some more reading guys this is so amazing to read, i now understand a major difference between us, it's hard to get my head around it but it's enlightening!
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