lilos
Full Member
Posts: 144
|
Post by lilos on Nov 10, 2018 18:25:56 GMT
I would agree on this view for me. As I said- all people are different and it may have meaning to some that is different for others. I’m not saying it’s better than a middle finger but that’s an energy I don’t really display so it doesn’t resonate with me personally. I can see how it comes from somewhere dismissive for me. Yuck. I might dislike that more than a middle finger myself. At least that’s up front. May not like what I see when I look in the mirror but no point arguing with the reflection. I guess I just have to better notice when it’s happening to try to catch what is bringing that arrogance up for me. What’s under it? It’s hard to say with out a specific example to reflect on. i wonder how the people you roll your eyes at perceive it? Typically my husband will tell me I did it- and it feels demeaning if I’m interpreting him correctly. Like his thoughts or input isn’t valued. I will try to blow it off which is in fact dismissive. As I mentioned before it feels arrogant to me- like I’m trying to bring myself up in defense of something. I don’t know why though. I would have to discuss it with him directly to be sure. Which at this point seems like a good idea outside of an instance when I do it and am trying to hide from it. If it’s brought up and discussed outside of a time when I’m reactive I can better hear it and not react further to it when it happens. If I’m pushed when I’m in it I resist and deny to get away. I speak of it like it's conscious but it’s not really- it’s like a reflex. But since I am not a person who is resistant to the idea that I am flawed and can address those things- if it’s been noted and I’m already conscious of it as something I want to work on I can step down when it’s pointed out and redirect..... If that makes sense. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 18:26:45 GMT
I can see it both ways, but have always viewed it as passive aggressive. Either way, it's dismissive. I would agree on this view for me. As I said- all people are different and it may have meaning to some that is different for others. I’m not saying it’s better than a middle finger but that’s an energy I don’t really display so it doesn’t resonate with me personally. I can see how it comes from somewhere dismissive for me. Yuck. I might dislike that more than a middle finger myself. At least that’s up front. May not like what I see when I look in the mirror but no point arguing with the reflection. I guess I just have to better notice when it’s happening to try to catch what is bringing that arrogance up for me. What’s under it? It’s hard to say with out a specific example to reflect on. I am the product of an abusive mother, so she would lose her SHIT all the time. As an adult, I do have contempt for people that can't control their emotions. With more awareness, that has softened for me, and I have tried to reduce that thinking. I think a lot of these things come from somewhere in childhood. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 21:45:12 GMT
to me it's direct aggression, like giving the finger. Maybe that's true. I can be pretty passive aggressive, but I'd never roll my eyes at my romantic partner...or anyone I think. I think the contempt bit is key. And contempt is such a deadly thing for a relationship, you really need to avoid it. Me and my exgf used to say, "I am bugged!" When we were annoyed with each other. Eye-rolling is contempt - and disrespect - but actual contempt. epicgum - spot on. And also so very correct - contempt is lethal for a relationship ... research has shown that it is THE thing that if expressed in a relationship, will lead to it's demise. One way to deal with it being done to you is to show no emotion (that is the KEY thing) and to point out - gently - that the other is eye-rolling. This will cause a defensive reaction, the other is often unaware that they are actual doing it, but even if they know ... they are still doing it, so they cannot control it and will still be defensive of their actions. It's usually better to be very controlled (of your emotions) when you point this out. If someone continues to do it, then they have not been on the receiving end of real contempt - otherwise they would do everything in themselves they could to stop it ... because they would understand the effect it has and be determined to prevent that effect. Unless they enjoy the effect / 'power' it has (or it's not that important to them ... whilst it is massively to the other, which indicates how out of touch they are with the other...)- then it is time to walk away. Remember, that this is all about power and how it is exerted over the other. That is what underlies attachment. Subtle expressions of power, like eye-rolling, can be overcome by showing no emotion (like, really, no emotion plus not actually reacting to the eye-rolling ... really not reacting in any way) - don't underestimate how powerful this can be. (WarriorGirl) |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 0:12:38 GMT
i wonder how the people you roll your eyes at perceive it? Typically my husband will tell me I did it- and it feels demeaning if I’m interpreting him correctly. Like his thoughts or input isn’t valued. I will try to blow it off which is in fact dismissive. As I mentioned before it feels arrogant to me- like I’m trying to bring myself up in defense of something. I don’t know why though. I would have to discuss it with him directly to be sure. Which at this point seems like a good idea outside of an instance when I do it and am trying to hide from it. If it’s brought up and discussed outside of a time when I’m reactive I can better hear it and not react further to it when it happens. If I’m pushed when I’m in it I resist and deny to get away. I speak of it like it's conscious but it’s not really- it’s like a reflex. But since I am not a person who is resistant to the idea that I am flawed and can address those things- if it’s been noted and I’m already conscious of it as something I want to work on I can step down when it’s pointed out and redirect..... If that makes sense. it makes perfect sense, and you sound really open and healthy about it. i'm ok with being flawed too- it's so good to have a place to work it out. that's something i love about these boards! |
|
|
|
Post by epicgum on Nov 11, 2018 6:07:27 GMT
Typically my husband will tell me I did it- and it feels demeaning if I’m interpreting him correctly. Like his thoughts or input isn’t valued. I will try to blow it off which is in fact dismissive. As I mentioned before it feels arrogant to me- like I’m trying to bring myself up in defense of something. I don’t know why though. I would have to discuss it with him directly to be sure. Which at this point seems like a good idea outside of an instance when I do it and am trying to hide from it. If it’s brought up and discussed outside of a time when I’m reactive I can better hear it and not react further to it when it happens. If I’m pushed when I’m in it I resist and deny to get away. I speak of it like it's conscious but it’s not really- it’s like a reflex. But since I am not a person who is resistant to the idea that I am flawed and can address those things- if it’s been noted and I’m already conscious of it as something I want to work on I can step down when it’s pointed out and redirect..... If that makes sense. it makes perfect sense, and you sound really open and healthy about it. i'm ok with being flawed too- it's so good to have a place to work it out. that's something i love about these boards! I'm ok with being flawed and loving myself in all of my flaws and also trying to improve myself....only AFTER it became blindingly clear that theres no other path forward. |
|
|
|
Post by epicgum on Nov 11, 2018 6:09:31 GMT
Maybe that's true. I can be pretty passive aggressive, but I'd never roll my eyes at my romantic partner...or anyone I think. I think the contempt bit is key. And contempt is such a deadly thing for a relationship, you really need to avoid it. Me and my exgf used to say, "I am bugged!" When we were annoyed with each other. Eye-rolling is contempt - and disrespect - but actual contempt. epicgum - spot on. And also so very correct - contempt is lethal for a relationship ... research has shown that it is THE thing that if expressed in a relationship, will lead to it's demise. One way to deal with it being done to you is to show no emotion (that is the KEY thing) and to point out - gently - that the other is eye-rolling. This will cause a defensive reaction, the other is often unaware that they are actual doing it, but even if they know ... they are still doing it, so they cannot control it and will still be defensive of their actions. It's usually better to be very controlled (of your emotions) when you point this out. If someone continues to do it, then they have not been on the receiving end of real contempt - otherwise they would do everything in themselves they could to stop it ... because they would understand the effect it has and be determined to prevent that effect. Unless they enjoy the effect / 'power' it has (or it's not that important to them ... whilst it is massively to the other, which indicates how out of touch they are with the other...)- then it is time to walk away. Remember, that this is all about power and how it is exerted over the other. That is what underlies attachment. Subtle expressions of power, like eye-rolling, can be overcome by showing no emotion (like, really, no emotion plus not actually reacting to the eye-rolling ... really not reacting in any way) - don't underestimate how powerful this can be. (WarriorGirl) I dont understand the 'no emotion' thing. Isn't that dishonest and bad to pretend you see fine when you are not? In terms of the comment on power...both attachment styles are trying to gain power over the other via different methods, because they dont feel secure in the relationship unless they are in control? |
|
|
|
Post by faithopelove on Nov 11, 2018 9:20:04 GMT
Eye-rolling is contempt - and disrespect - but actual contempt. epicgum - spot on. And also so very correct - contempt is lethal for a relationship ... research has shown that it is THE thing that if expressed in a relationship, will lead to it's demise. One way to deal with it being done to you is to show no emotion (that is the KEY thing) and to point out - gently - that the other is eye-rolling. This will cause a defensive reaction, the other is often unaware that they are actual doing it, but even if they know ... they are still doing it, so they cannot control it and will still be defensive of their actions. It's usually better to be very controlled (of your emotions) when you point this out. If someone continues to do it, then they have not been on the receiving end of real contempt - otherwise they would do everything in themselves they could to stop it ... because they would understand the effect it has and be determined to prevent that effect. Unless they enjoy the effect / 'power' it has (or it's not that important to them ... whilst it is massively to the other, which indicates how out of touch they are with the other...)- then it is time to walk away. Remember, that this is all about power and how it is exerted over the other. That is what underlies attachment. Subtle expressions of power, like eye-rolling, can be overcome by showing no emotion (like, really, no emotion plus not actually reacting to the eye-rolling ... really not reacting in any way) - don't underestimate how powerful this can be. (WarriorGirl) I dont understand the 'no emotion' thing. Isn't that dishonest and bad to pretend you see fine when you are not? In terms of the comment on power...both attachment styles are trying to gain power over the other via different methods, because they dont feel secure in the relationship unless they are in control? Epicgum- Regarding showing no emotion to the eye rolling...I think in this case, showing no emotion is a way to negatively reinforce no eye rolling. If the person rolling their eyes doesn’t get a reaction out of you, then they’ll eventually do it less and even stop altogether. It sounds like behavioral therapy and a way to stop or redirect unwanted behaviors...I think of ignoring a kid who’s having a temper tantrum. Showing no emotion and not letting that child rattle you is effective in reshaping the behavior. In that way showing no emotion can be a good thing. That’s the way I see it. |
|
|
|
Post by anne12 on Nov 11, 2018 14:13:22 GMT
Thanks for more input.
I can´t pretend that I am fine, when I´m not. The eyeroll and the "ah, Anne..." is just not okay in my opinion.
I do not react very emotional in the situation. I feels more like "freeze".. Like a dear in the headligths. I am thinking: Did she just do that/did she really say that..?
The pretending that it dident happened - can build up inside me - and maybe I will have a "itzy bitzy tiny explosion of anger" later on, if I do not adress this.
I have never seen my stephmom explode and throwing around with things, but my much younger half-sister, have told me about it and also my dad.
I think it is more tricky for me, because she is not one of my parents and she moved in with my dad and me when I was around 13 years old.
My own mother wold never ever talk to me like she talks to my sister and sometimes (me). She is very blunt, hot tempered, sometimes too direct, critical, think she knows better ect. Not with strangers and not at her workplace and not with my mothers sister, but at home with the people, who are close to her.
I am courious how you eye-rollers have worked with your eyerolling tendencies?
She can be sweet and helpfull, she thinks, she is tough with thick skin, but I have seen some of her soft spots and I have also seen sometimes when she gets nerveus around new people.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 14:33:13 GMT
ignoring does nothing to assert a boundary or expectation for a respectful exchange.
it is useful in the "grey rock" technique for narcissists.
but to assert a boundary and expectation can go beyond influencing the one particular disrespectful behavior and set the tone and expectation. for the entire relationship.
being passive in the face of aggression rarely discourages aggression.
it creates a permission slip for it, and also does nothing to empower and relieve the target of disrespect.
silence in the face of microagressions like this is disempowering and perpetuates negativity within the target.
and, to me this kind of indirect "communication" is also dicey for the reason that while and OUTWARD expression says one thing, (and not clearly!) and inward expression of frustration and anger may be eventually turned toward the self if the desired result is not attained, for not having said YOU CANT TREAT ME THAT WAY!
|
|
|
|
Post by anne12 on Nov 11, 2018 14:52:09 GMT
ignoring does nothing to assert a boundary or expectation for a respectful exchange. it is useful in the "grey rock" technique for narcissists. but to assert a boundary and expectation can go beyond influencing the one particular disrespectful behavior and set the tone and expectation. for the entire relationship. being passive in the face of aggression rarely discourages aggression. it creates a permission slip for it, and also does nothing to empower and relieve the target of disrespect. silence in the face of microagressions like this is disempowering and perpetuates negativity within the target. and, to me this kind of indirect "communication" is also dicey for the reason that while and OUTWARD expression says one thing, (and not clearly!) and inward expression of frustration and anger may be eventually turned toward the self if the desired result is not attained, for not having said YOU CANT TREAT ME THAT WAY! I agree! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 16:11:40 GMT
Thanks for more input. I can´t pretend that I am fine, when I´m not. The eyeroll and the "ah, Anne..." is just not okay in my opinion. I do not react very emotional in the situation. I feels more like "freeze".. Like a dear in the headligths. I am thinking: Did she just do that/did she really say that..? The pretending that it dident happened - can build up inside me - and maybe I will have a "itzy bitzy tiny explosion of anger" later on, if I do not adress this. I have never seen my stephmom explode and throwing around with things, but my much younger half-sister, have told me about it and also my dad. I think it is more tricky for me, because she is not one of my parents and she moved in with my dad and me when I was around 13 years old. My own mother wold never ever talk to me like she talks to my sister and sometimes (me). She is very blunt, hot tempered, sometimes too direct, critical, think she knows better ect. Not with strangers and not at her workplace and not with my mothers sister, but at home with the people, who are close to her. I am courious how you eye-rollers have worked with your eyerolling tendencies? She can be sweet and helpfull, she thinks, she is tough with thick skin, but I have seen some of her soft spots and I have also seen sometimes when she gets nerveus around new people. It's interesting that she only does it with people that are close to her. My guess is she doesn't realize that she's doing it. My eye rolling is not people specific but rather situational. If someone is aggressive with me, I will give an eyeroll and a "whatever". Someone can scream in my face, make a demeaning remark to me and that's what I would do. I guess it made me feel superior that I didn't lose my "cool" and I could also avoid the confrontation. I think that people need to be aware that they are doing it. It was such a "knee jerk" reaction for me. If you bring it to her attention every time she does it, it may help both you and her. |
|
lilos
Full Member
Posts: 144
|
Post by lilos on Nov 11, 2018 18:17:22 GMT
Thanks for more input. I can´t pretend that I am fine, when I´m not. The eyeroll and the "ah, Anne..." is just not okay in my opinion. I do not react very emotional in the situation. I feels more like "freeze".. Like a dear in the headligths. I am thinking: Did she just do that/did she really say that..? The pretending that it dident happened - can build up inside me - and maybe I will have a "itzy bitzy tiny explosion of anger" later on, if I do not adress this. I have never seen my stephmom explode and throwing around with things, but my much younger half-sister, have told me about it and also my dad. I think it is more tricky for me, because she is not one of my parents and she moved in with my dad and me when I was around 13 years old. My own mother wold never ever talk to me like she talks to my sister and sometimes (me). She is very blunt, hot tempered, sometimes too direct, critical, think she knows better ect. Not with strangers and not at her workplace and not with my mothers sister, but at home with the people, who are close to her. I am courious how you eye-rollers have worked with your eyerolling tendencies? She can be sweet and helpfull, she thinks, she is tough with thick skin, but I have seen some of her soft spots and I have also seen sometimes when she gets nerveus around new people. I don’t think you ever should pretend you are on when you are not. I have done that repeatedly in my life and it doesn’t work. What stands out to me in what you wrote is how you are seeing her. Seeing she has kindness and softness in her. That she thinks she has a thick skin which maybe she has built up over time to defend her soft spots. That she has her own wounds. And she has defenses like we all do- and hers are childish- eye rolls, critical and harsh talk, tantrums blowing up and throwing things. These are things my 5 yo does. These are things I do. Because no one taught me another way. Now I am teaching myself. Perhaps no one taught her better. She can teach herself but first- she needs to see it. I was oblivious to it until the right person showed me in the way that finally got through to me. If You want there to be change you need to say something. Use what you know about her to help determine what might be the best way for her to hear it. For me that’s in a neutral environment. What do you think might work best for her? What might work for you? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 21:15:44 GMT
Eye-rolling is contempt - and disrespect - but actual contempt. epicgum - spot on. And also so very correct - contempt is lethal for a relationship ... research has shown that it is THE thing that if expressed in a relationship, will lead to it's demise. One way to deal with it being done to you is to show no emotion (that is the KEY thing) and to point out - gently - that the other is eye-rolling. This will cause a defensive reaction, the other is often unaware that they are actual doing it, but even if they know ... they are still doing it, so they cannot control it and will still be defensive of their actions. It's usually better to be very controlled (of your emotions) when you point this out. If someone continues to do it, then they have not been on the receiving end of real contempt - otherwise they would do everything in themselves they could to stop it ... because they would understand the effect it has and be determined to prevent that effect. Unless they enjoy the effect / 'power' it has (or it's not that important to them ... whilst it is massively to the other, which indicates how out of touch they are with the other...)- then it is time to walk away. Remember, that this is all about power and how it is exerted over the other. That is what underlies attachment. Subtle expressions of power, like eye-rolling, can be overcome by showing no emotion (like, really, no emotion plus not actually reacting to the eye-rolling ... really not reacting in any way) - don't underestimate how powerful this can be. (WarriorGirl) I dont understand the 'no emotion' thing. Isn't that dishonest and bad to pretend you see fine when you are not? In terms of the comment on power...both attachment styles are trying to gain power over the other via different methods, because they dont feel secure in the relationship unless they are in control? - No emotion is (similar to Grey Rock) used to protect yourself. The power thing is behind all of this. The whole drive behind unhealthy attachment IS about power...who had the power when you were growing up? Who did you try to gain attention / your needs met from - and who had the power to do so / not do so? That is what this is all about ... carried through into relationships. This isn't about being passive aggressive, but being in control of your emotions. Maybe I missed this bit out - that it's not something you can just 'do' - and this is usually when you have already attempted to express to the other that they are out of order. You need to process / work through your deep feelings to get to the point where you can forgive the other (most of the time), such that you can actually accept the other (and their flaws) for what they are - but not necessarily accept how they treat you. You are not suppressing your reactions, although being human, things will still rile you in the moment. But if you can go into a situation relatively accepting of of the other's flaws, they say / do something that they do but that is not acceptable. You then are mostly prepared for this - but you may still be upset / riled at their words / actions. BUT, you then show no emotion - because you are maintaining control of your emotions (which you will probably need to fully process when you are away from them). So - yes, somewhat Grey Rock ... but this is to stop the attachment game / protect yourself / be more emotionally mature / refuse to 'play'. Until you realise that all of this is about power games, you will continue to play the game. In a nutshell - if you can put up with the eye-roller, good luck to you (I wouldn't anymore). If you don't want to put up with the eye-roller and they listen to your reactions - yay to both of you! If you don't want to put up with the eye-roller but they are oblivious to their action, be subtle when you first breach the issue. If the eye-roller is aware but continues, then do something to break the cycle - no reaction is very powerful. If the eye-roller is aware and doesn't want to change - walk away, with no reaction. Reaction is what fuels the game of unhealthy attachment. APs / FAs - the clue is in the name Anxious / Fearful. Dismissive are not these, although they may have similar feelings. Think about power in that context. When you get this, it's a game-changer. If you think about, for example, the 'dance' between an AP and a DA ... imagine taking away the reactions. There is nothing there. This is not about being passive aggressive (which is an attempt to gain power), nor is it about suppressing healthy reactions / expressions. it is about breaking the state and changing the habitual unhealthy reactions ... rather than just escalating the reactions. Forgive them, for they know not what they do ... unless they do. If you feel contempt for the other, you are fuelling the game. If you feel empathic pity (as an AP /FA) - you are nearer to having the (healthier) 'power', or more balance. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 21:40:43 GMT
I dont understand the 'no emotion' thing. Isn't that dishonest and bad to pretend you see fine when you are not? In terms of the comment on power...both attachment styles are trying to gain power over the other via different methods, because they dont feel secure in the relationship unless they are in control? - No emotion is (similar to Grey Rock) used to protect yourself. The power thing is behind all of this. The whole drive behind unhealthy attachment IS about power...who had the power when you were growing up? Who did you try to gain attention / your needs met from - and who had the power to do so / not do so? That is what this is all about ... carried through into relationships. This isn't about being passive aggressive, but being in control of your emotions. Maybe I missed this bit out - that it's not something you can just 'do' - and this is usually when you have already attempted to express to the other that they are out of order. You need to process / work through your deep feelings to get to the point where you can forgive the other (most of the time), such that you can actually accept the other (and their flaws) for what they are - but not necessarily accept how they treat you. You are not suppressing your reactions, although being human, things will still rile you in the moment. But if you can go into a situation relatively accepting of of the other's flaws, they say / do something that they do but that is not acceptable. You then are mostly prepared for this - but you may still be upset / riled at their words / actions. BUT, you then show no emotion - because you are maintaining control of your emotions (which you will probably need to fully process when you are away from them). So - yes, somewhat Grey Rock ... but this is to stop the attachment game / protect yourself / be more emotionally mature / refuse to 'play'. Until you realise that all of this is about power games, you will continue to play the game. In a nutshell - if you can put up with the eye-roller, good luck to you (I wouldn't anymore). If you don't want to put up with the eye-roller and they listen to your reactions - yay to both of you! If you don't want to put up with the eye-roller but they are oblivious to their action, be subtle when you first breach the issue. If the eye-roller is aware but continues, then do something to break the cycle - no reaction is very powerful. If the eye-roller is aware and doesn't want to change - walk away, with no reaction. Reaction is what fuels the game of unhealthy attachment. APs / FAs - the clue is in the name Anxious / Fearful. Dismissive are not these, although they may have similar feelings. Think about power in that context. When you get this, it's a game-changer. If you think about, for example, the 'dance' between an AP and a DA ... imagine taking away the reactions. There is nothing there. This is not about being passive aggressive (which is an attempt to gain power) it is about breaking the state and changing the habitual reactions ... rather than just escalating the reactions. Forgive them, for they know not what they do ... unless they do. If you feel contempt for the other, you are fuelling the game. If you feel empathic pity - you are nearer to having the power. From someone who habitually shows no emotion, I don't think that is the answer. I think in the AP/DA dance, it's the non emotion/non reaction of the DA that partially fuels the dynamic rather than what you are saying. Showing no emotion in the face of contempt, in my opinion, is more damaging to the relationship. I can tell you that no emotion would have zero impact on me. What has always had the biggest impact on me is when someone shows that they are hurt (not anger) by my actions. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 21:42:41 GMT
Mary - see my comment that this is for APs / FAs .. not DAs.
DA's no emotion is about power (over the AP)
And I would dispute that an AP / FA showing hurt would affect a DA - it just shows vulnerability, giving you power.
|
|
