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Post by sissyk on Feb 12, 2019 23:32:44 GMT
You make a great point here, FHL. While attachment theory is very useful, it is never the whole story with us complicated messy humans. But when one is suffering from heartache and is looking for hope, having a clear theory can be comforting--at least for a while. Especially with APs--we are used to blaming ourselves for relationship issues and having an external explanation can seem a huge relief. If the problem (attachment) gets worked through--happy ending! I have found the attachment construct useful--and these boards priceless! But I am not sure I am convinced that attachment styles are based only on childhood patterns--otherwise why would so many of us "switch" styles depending on the partner? (I have in hindsight acted DA with my XH for instance.) They seem very much relate to circumstance. Maybe these are natural push pull/chase retreat dynamics that get played out between two people for all kinds of reasons. That is not to discount the long lasting damage of real childhood deprivation on the ability to bond in some cases of course. If the partner has a problem, do they want to work on it regardless of its origin? Are they willing to listen and communicate with you even when it gets uncomfortable? Are they willing to really consider your needs and at least TRY to make a first step to act with them in mind? If not, there is nothing to be done but detach. - Hey, yes my attachment became DA with my ex husband as well, but the swing to DA took over 15 years for me. I def think relationships influence our attachment style, coupled with early childhood. In my case my attachment wounds came from early childhood, but I can see how destructive and hurtful relationships in adulthood could cause one to shift. I’ve noticed being around AP males will throw me into avoidant territory- triggers me to go the other way. Maybe 2 AP can’t be equally AP so someone in the relationship naturally becomes the avoidant partner. I agree, a lot of shifts and situational aspects to attachment style. The DA and I had a very closed off and shut down (on his part) text exchange last night. He’s no more open than he was 15 months ago. He refuses to allow me in since the break. He’s a different person- I would almost think he was playing me and faking it when we were together but no one is that good...and he wouldn’t bother to go through the trouble of introducing me to his parents and moving me in (on a part-time basis.) So hard to process the 180 of a person going emotional zombie on me. I’ve never experienced it in my life. Sometimes it feels maddening. If I don’t go full blown AP rogue on this man then I’m def making progress on secure. If he is shut down and closed off, then hear that and take a break. Don't contact him for a few weeks at least. Not forever. You are doing all the work and not getting much in return right now. You don't want or need to be in a relationship where you are laboring mightily to keep it on life support. He might realize he misses you in that time...or you might get enough distance to realize how much you are putting into a one-sided deal. But know that there is nothing you can say to him right now by being direct that is going to move the dial for him. You have done that already...did it help? It is all so disorienting! I know! I think the realization you posted at the start of this thread is a healthy, shows growth, and is a message you should listen to carefully. |
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Post by faithopelove on Feb 12, 2019 23:50:43 GMT
sissyk - Hey, yes my attachment became DA with my ex husband as well, but the swing to DA took over 15 years for me. I def think relationships influence our attachment style, coupled with early childhood. In my case my attachment wounds came from early childhood, but I can see how destructive and hurtful relationships in adulthood could cause one to shift. I’ve noticed being around AP males will throw me into avoidant territory- triggers me to go the other way. Maybe 2 AP can’t be equally AP so someone in the relationship naturally becomes the avoidant partner. I agree, a lot of shifts and situational aspects to attachment style. The DA and I had a very closed off and shut down (on his part) text exchange last night. He’s no more open than he was 15 months ago. He refuses to allow me in since the break. He’s a different person- I would almost think he was playing me and faking it when we were together but no one is that good...and he wouldn’t bother to go through the trouble of introducing me to his parents and moving me in (on a part-time basis.) So hard to process the 180 of a person going emotional zombie on me. I’ve never experienced it in my life. Sometimes it feels maddening. If I don’t go full blown AP rogue on this man then I’m def making progress on secure. If he is shut down and closed off, then hear that and take a break. Don't contact him for a few weeks at least. Not forever. You are doing all the work and not getting much in return right now. You don't want or need to be in a relationship where you are laboring mightily to keep it on life support. He might realize he misses you in that time...or you might get enough distance to realize how much you are putting into a one-sided deal. But know that there is nothing you can say to him right now by being direct that is going to move the dial for him. You have done that already...did it help? It is all so disorienting! I know! I think the realization you posted at the start of this thread is a healthy, shows growth, and is a message you should listen to carefully. Thanks sissyk - I appreciate your input and sound advice. It helps!! 💗💗💗 |
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Post by mrob on Feb 13, 2019 2:31:07 GMT
Can you see what’s going on here? That’s your simple. If that simple wasn’t subjective, none of us would need to be here. Can I see what’s going on? Yeah, I’d say I do. Seeing someone you care for throw their life away still gets to me. Choosing to be lonely and depressed- hard time processing but I see it. At the end of the day, we are all sovereign individuals who have a choice to treat, or not treat our conditions. If he chooses to not treat his condition, and that in turn affects you, then your choice is to respect his decision and move on, or to hang in there and continue. It's his business. If you wish to look at the actions and call it simple, that's your business. I think you're entirely reasonable to do that. My point is that what appears "simple" to you is a manifestation of all this attachment stuff. Your "simple" and my "simple" might be the same, they might be different, but the motivation can come from a very different place. I understand that sometimes, one just has to take people on face value, and that is their actions. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 3:53:17 GMT
I think there's truth in what everyone is saying!
it is quite simple - if someone has an issue, it's their choice if and how they want to fix it. at the end of the day, there's only so much you can hold onto the past and your wounds to justify your approach to life before it becomes an excuse not to grow, or worse, simply refuse to see that there's a problem. however, the process of getting to that decision, executing it, and navigating the journey is definitely not simple. and of course, working through the attachment stuff to get to a point where you're clear-headed enough to make that decision is a minefield as we all know.
my struggle is in how much time to give to that process for someone else because that's how much energy i have to expend being understanding and patient and supportive. my personal deadline for myself once i recognize this as an issue for myself is 1 year, but that has to be a decision that i make because i got tired of myself. when someone else is not there yet, at a point where they see the issue in themselves and get tired of that version of them, there is nothing to support - you're just putting up with hurtful behavior, regardless of where they might come from.
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Post by stayhappy on Feb 13, 2019 4:39:51 GMT
I’m not sure if I understand what you mean but I think like this maybe you have hope that knowing about attachment style will help you fix your relationship with him. Well it could help. But in the first place it should help yourself. By making excuses for him you are not growing and neither will him grow. I have seen some growing on my DA guy but since we started seeing each other but I don’t think this changes happened because I made excuses for him or accept his “bad behavior”. I actually growed myself in my interaction with him and since my divorce from my ex that’s the first time I feel so secure. I have wrote somewhere that I was confused if was becoming more avoidant or if I was doing some protest behavior because I got indifferent by his deactivation but I actually was becoming more and more secure with mine interaction with him. For my surprise he is more open to me now too. I found consistency in the inconsistency. We know where we have each other now and it’s good. - Yes, (I think?) it may have been you who posted you’re making progress and you possibly because he feels less pressure now. If not you, sorry! I’ve been compromising and doing things his way for 15 months- I sometimes would try to convince or “bring him around” but for the most part, he defined our new “relationship” when he broke up with me and I’ve gone along with the new design. I’ve been more comfortable expressing myself without protest behavior - that’s progress with me, but he isn’t any less shut down than since the break. I thought in time I could earn his trust and we could bond- but his walls are firm. I think my guy feel less pressure because he knows he is not stoping my life from anything. Compromising it’s a good thing but doing everything his away is not the best thing. It’s not kind to yourself and he misses the opportunity to learn how to meet your needs or both misses that opportunity. I have learned that he needs more space than I need and he has learned that I need more communication than he needs, that when he is taking his space I need to know that he still there for me. He needs to know that when he comes back efter 1-2 weeks I’m there for him too. He has learned that under my PMS I get easily irritated or sad and he should not take it personally and now we can laugh about it. And instead of me being irritated when he comes back efter his alone time I can joke about it and say to him “You better reward our lost time” and that’s what happens. He have learned that one text under this whole space thing means a lot to me, because he can stay connected with out any contact for one- two weeks and for me it’s not that easy. So he usually texts “I have something new to say and you will love to hear that when we meet!”... I learn from him, he learns from me. I teach him what is important for me and he teaches me what is important for him. I don’t expect him to do everything my way and neither would why do everything his way either. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 4:58:27 GMT
The AP in this relationship is choosing to be lonely and live less than a full life because of attachment issues, what the DA is doing is nobody's business.
This isn't his problem, he isn't here complaining about it.
This is an AP problem, NOT a DA problem. If this relationship wasn't working for him EXACTLY AS IT IS, he wouldn't be having it. It leaves the AP lonely. Who is choosing what here, and what can one control?
It begins to look like projection.
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Post by faithopelove on Feb 13, 2019 5:17:40 GMT
The AP in this relationship is choosing to be lonely and live less than a full life because of attachment issues, what the DA is doing is nobody's business. This isn't his problem, he isn't here complaining about it. [bThis is an AP problem, NOT a DA problem. If this relationship wasn't working for him EXACTLY AS IT IS, he wouldn't be having it. It leaves the AP lonely. Who is choosing what here, and what can one control? It begins to look like projection. @nullified - sounds like you’re projecting. This is exactly a DA problem. I’m willing to do the work and have for several months. The only reason he’s not on these boards or any site bc he refuses to open up, do any research or talk about anything. He’d be the first to tell you that- the first to tell you he’s messed up. That’s precisely why it’s a DA problem- complete shut down mode and refusal to address. Typical DA behavior. I agree with one thing- this relationship is working for him as is- to a certain extent. He doesn’t want to lose me so he’s keeping me at a comfortable distance. Yet in this distance he doesn’t feel fulfilled as he did, however, the distance is his choosing. I call him unhappy bc he tells me he is...that’s not my guess, that’s a fact. So, my problem? It’s not a problem as much as the situation I am in right now. I know I can choose to cut him out at any time- I obviously have chosen not to for two years. And if I do cut, at least I’ve been doing my work. I can move on with new perspective and he’ll still be stuck alone or with a new person with the same issues he refuses to address. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 11:38:34 GMT
The AP in this relationship is choosing to be lonely and live less than a full life because of attachment issues, what the DA is doing is nobody's business. This isn't his problem, he isn't here complaining about it. This is an AP problem, NOT a DA problem. If this relationship wasn't working for him EXACTLY AS IT IS, he wouldn't be having it. It leaves the AP lonely. Who is choosing what here, and what can one control? It begins to look like projection. But isn't this yet another excuse for the DA to avoid responsibility? Because that's what they do and that is equally unhealthy. There are two people involved. Someone wrote here a while ago about the idea that choosing to engage with someone comes with certain responsibilities - which vary depending on the level of commitment. DAs are choosing to participate in that too, it's not like they can just keep it completely on their terms and expect anyone to settle for that. It is giving without taking. They should be interested in how the other person feels about the situation - if not, they should not participate either. By staying they are giving mixed signals. It can be hard for the other person to recognize when they should leave, when they can be sure their needs will never be met. Just another perspective - or projection, coming from a relationship where the DA has been unwilling to leave, wanting to work on his issues, but also trying to keep things at his comfort level. Doesn't apply to every situation but I just can't completely validate the idea that what DA is doing is no one's business. Their choices do affect others. DA refusal to take responsibility should not be thought of as justified "minding their own business" but a manifestation of their issues, as long as they are involved. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 11:52:42 GMT
The AP in this relationship is choosing to be lonely and live less than a full life because of attachment issues, what the DA is doing is nobody's business. This isn't his problem, he isn't here complaining about it. This is an AP problem, NOT a DA problem. If this relationship wasn't working for him EXACTLY AS IT IS, he wouldn't be having it. It leaves the AP lonely. Who is choosing what here, and what can one control? It begins to look like projection. But isn't this yet another excuse for the DA to avoid responsibility? Because that's what they do and that is equally unhealthy. There are two people involved. Someone wrote here a while ago about the idea that choosing to engage with someone comes with certain responsibilities - which vary depending on the level of commitment. DAs are choosing to participate in that too, it's not like they can just keep it completely on their terms and expect anyone to settle for that. It is giving without taking. They should be interested in how the other person feels about the situation - if not, they should not participate either. By staying they are giving mixed signals. It can be hard for the other person to recognize when they should leave, when they can be sure their needs will never be met. Just another perspective - or projection, coming from a relationship where the DA has been unwilling to leave, wanting to work on his issues, but also trying to keep things at his comfort level. Doesn't apply to every situation but I just can't completely validate the idea that what DA is doing is no one's business. Their choices do affect others. DA refusal to take responsibility should not be thought of as justified "minding their own business" but a manifestation of their issues, as long as they are involved. All I am saying, is that AP has only control over her own choices, and she is choosing this relationship with a DA who is as you described. She is choosing loneliness and unhappiness, and complaining about it. She is complaining about him, and his unaddressed DA issues. I'm putting the focus on her dysfunction rather than his. This is typical AP behavior. Rescuing and complaining and blaming. The point that is being missed her is that she creates her own problem. HER behavior affects her. She is behaving codependently. This is Codependency 101. Why is the discussion about him? |
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Post by sissyk on Feb 13, 2019 12:22:33 GMT
But isn't this yet another excuse for the DA to avoid responsibility? Because that's what they do and that is equally unhealthy. There are two people involved. Someone wrote here a while ago about the idea that choosing to engage with someone comes with certain responsibilities - which vary depending on the level of commitment. DAs are choosing to participate in that too, it's not like they can just keep it completely on their terms and expect anyone to settle for that. It is giving without taking. They should be interested in how the other person feels about the situation - if not, they should not participate either. By staying they are giving mixed signals. It can be hard for the other person to recognize when they should leave, when they can be sure their needs will never be met. Just another perspective - or projection, coming from a relationship where the DA has been unwilling to leave, wanting to work on his issues, but also trying to keep things at his comfort level. Doesn't apply to every situation but I just can't completely validate the idea that what DA is doing is no one's business. Their choices do affect others. DA refusal to take responsibility should not be thought of as justified "minding their own business" but a manifestation of their issues, as long as they are involved. All I am saying, is that AP has only control over her own choices, and she is choosing this relationship with a DA who is as you described. She is choosing loneliness and unhappiness, and complaining about it. She is complaining about him, and his unaddressed DA issues. I'm putting the focus on her dysfunction rather than his. This is typical AP behavior. Rescuing and complaining and blaming. The point that is being missed her is that she creates her own problem. HER behavior affects her. She is behaving codependently. This is Codependency 101. Why is the discussion about him? Whoa there. FHL is not "complaining." She is struggling to do the best for herself and an imperfect person she cares about deeply. They had a deep bond and she sees him suffering and that stirs compassion and empathy even if his suffering is self inflicted and has caused her pain. Her first post here was about stepping back and thinking if she has been too understanding. A good step in her growth I think. Totally agree we all have to realize we have needs and expectations that are equally valid. If this was as easy as saying forgettaboutit and going of windsurfing with the next candidate we wouldn't be here. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 12:40:56 GMT
All I am saying, is that AP has only control over her own choices, and she is choosing this relationship with a DA who is as you described. She is choosing loneliness and unhappiness, and complaining about it. She is complaining about him, and his unaddressed DA issues. I'm putting the focus on her dysfunction rather than his. This is typical AP behavior. Rescuing and complaining and blaming. The point that is being missed her is that she creates her own problem. HER behavior affects her. She is behaving codependently. This is Codependency 101. Why is the discussion about him? Whoa there. FHL is not "complaining." She is struggling to do the best for herself and an imperfect person she cares about deeply. They had a deep bond and she sees him suffering and that stirs compassion and empathy even if his suffering is self inflicted and has caused her pain. Her first post here was about stepping back and thinking if she has been too understanding. A good step in her growth I think. Totally agree we all have to realize we have needs and expectations that are equally valid. If this was as easy as saying forgettaboutit and going of windsurfing with the next candidate we wouldn't be here. I'm not saying it's easy to address one's own attachment issues , if it was he would be doing it also. i'm just pointing out that this is codependent behavior. She and he both have absolute freedom of choice, that's all. Not everyone shares the AP perspective of this, not everyone shares the DA perspective. So, from the outside it does look like rescuing behaviors and dysfunctional codependency. I'm not excusing him for his contribution or her for hers, it's just the Anxious/Avoidant dance but it seems like it gets twisted into something else. I don't need to provide my view as I see its unpopular. I have a situation in my own life where I have chosen to let go of the impact of a dysfunctional partner's behaviors and focus on creating a healthier environment for myself, but not everyone is at that point. I was just participating in the discussion and really my points are supportive of the original post. Are my points not supportive of the original post, in which OP challenged her own thinking? But it seems the thread turned back to him, so I'll just move along, no worries. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 14:33:14 GMT
ok everyone cool your jets! <3<3 @nullified i think your perspective has its merits, and i think others have been saying it to FHL too in various ways over time. but it's clear she hasn't given it up on him. It seems like FHL has come a long way to get to this point where she has this insight, so yes, your points are supportive of the original post, though your tone is a tad sharp. it is quite frustrating isn't it, when you see the perpetuation of the issue and the solutions are obvious. it's always the least obvious to the people involved. it's exactly like you said - not everyone is at that point where brutal honesty is simply received as honesty. I also told my ex that he's got issues and need to face up to them otherwise stop complaining about how much he wants healthy relationships when he sees something wrong with him, but refuses to do shit about it. he broke up with me.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 14:52:22 GMT
ok everyone cool your jets! <3<3 @nullified i think your perspective has its merits, and i think others have been saying it to FHL too in various ways over time. but it's clear she hasn't given it up on him. It seems like FHL has come a long way to get to this point where she has this insight, so yes, your points are supportive of the original post, though your tone is a tad sharp. it is quite frustrating isn't it, when you see the perpetuation of the issue and the solutions are obvious. it's always the least obvious to the people involved. it's exactly like you said - not everyone is at that point where brutal honesty is simply received as honesty. I also told my ex that he's got issues and need to face up to them otherwise stop complaining about how much he wants healthy relationships when he sees something wrong with him, but refuses to do shit about it. he broke up with me. I'm confused about the placement of this post in the general AP section rather than the support section if challenging or opposing viewpoints are not wanted. But as I mentioned, I don't have a problem leaving the conversation, it's just a discussion about insecure relationships and I would expect a more sheltered conversation to happen in the support forum. As you were, there isn't a need for conflict, in my opinion. Just offering an (unwelcome) view. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 15:02:45 GMT
ok everyone cool your jets! <3<3 @nullified i think your perspective has its merits, and i think others have been saying it to FHL too in various ways over time. but it's clear she hasn't given it up on him. It seems like FHL has come a long way to get to this point where she has this insight, so yes, your points are supportive of the original post, though your tone is a tad sharp. it is quite frustrating isn't it, when you see the perpetuation of the issue and the solutions are obvious. it's always the least obvious to the people involved. it's exactly like you said - not everyone is at that point where brutal honesty is simply received as honesty. I also told my ex that he's got issues and need to face up to them otherwise stop complaining about how much he wants healthy relationships when he sees something wrong with him, but refuses to do shit about it. he broke up with me. I'm confused about the placement of this post in the general AP section rather than the support section if challenging or opposing viewpoints are not wanted. But as I mentioned, I don't have a problem leaving the conversation, it's just a discussion about insecure relationships and I would expect a more sheltered conversation to happen in the support forum. As you were, there isn't a need for conflict, in my opinion. Just offering an (unwelcome) view. I said that your views are warranted and legit, and have been stated before by others in a more gentle way. it is just a discussion, and others merely responded to your pov with disagreement. there isn't a conflict here, and there isn't a need for one. your views are welcomed, and nobody wishes for you to leave the conversation (i don't). |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 15:22:53 GMT
I don't mind, I don't think it'll be helpful for anyone, and would just be a distraction. Thank you tho @shiningstar.  I know you're working hard on your own process in spite of the pain of it all, I can relate. Have a good day |
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I know you're working hard on your own process in spite of the pain of it all, I can relate. Have a good day