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Post by faithopelove on Feb 14, 2019 1:43:45 GMT
All I am saying, is that AP has only control over her own choices, and she is choosing this relationship with a DA who is as you described. She is choosing loneliness and unhappiness, and complaining about it. She is complaining about him, and his unaddressed DA issues. I'm putting the focus on her dysfunction rather than his. This is typical AP behavior. Rescuing and complaining and blaming. The point that is being missed her is that she creates her own problem. HER behavior affects her. She is behaving codependently. This is Codependency 101. Why is the discussion about him? Whoa there. FHL is not "complaining." She is struggling to do the best for herself and an imperfect person she cares about deeply. They had a deep bond and she sees him suffering and that stirs compassion and empathy even if his suffering is self inflicted and has caused her pain. Her first post here was about stepping back and thinking if she has been too understanding. A good step in her growth I think. Totally agree we all have to realize we have needs and expectations that are equally valid. If this was as easy as saying forgettaboutit and going of windsurfing with the next candidate we wouldn't be here. Thank you, sissyk You read me right even if @nullified doesn’t - if I didn't love this man I would’ve left after the break up and subsequent breadcrumbs. I do see him hurting and would like things to be better. Yet they’re not better. That’s the position I’m in and it’s difficult to walk away even if he won’t meet my needs or seek help. It’s still hard to walk away from someone you care for deeply. Thanks for your comments- I appreciate your understanding! |
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Post by faithopelove on Feb 14, 2019 2:07:03 GMT
ok everyone cool your jets! <3<3 @nullified i think your perspective has its merits, and i think others have been saying it to FHL too in various ways over time. but it's clear she hasn't given it up on him. It seems like FHL has come a long way to get to this point where she has this insight, so yes, your points are supportive of the original post, though your tone is a tad sharp. it is quite frustrating isn't it, when you see the perpetuation of the issue and the solutions are obvious. it's always the least obvious to the people involved. it's exactly like you said - not everyone is at that point where brutal honesty is simply received as honesty. I also told my ex that he's got issues and need to face up to them otherwise stop complaining about how much he wants healthy relationships when he sees something wrong with him, but refuses to do shit about it. he broke up with me.  I'm confused about the placement of this post in the general AP section rather than the support section if challenging or opposing viewpoints are not wanted. But as I mentioned, I don't have a problem leaving the conversation, it's just a discussion about insecure relationships and I would expect a more sheltered conversation to happen in the support forum. As you were, there isn't a need for conflict, in my opinion. Just offering an (unwelcome) view. @nullified - I’m totally fine with you leaving the discussion. The fact I have posted it here and not in another section doesn’t warrant your rudeness. Thanks but no thanks to the cynicism and one-sided judgment. |
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Post by faithopelove on Feb 14, 2019 2:15:56 GMT
" Nor are we entitled to someone else doing "the work" because we say we are doing the work. I agree wholeheartedly with mrob's post about sovereignty. Truly, every person has a right to their own choices and preferences, and if those choices and preferences are not in line with one's own, then the non-controlling choice is to choose another partner. Of course, until internal dysfunction is mastered , that isn't possible. And here we are. We can say that OP is entitled to her own process and beliefs... and so is her partner. It's universal and the ultimate truth that many of us are forced to face is that the only person we have the right, responsibility or ability to change is ourselves. " What I have experienced is that once I had really delved into my own painful and compassionate journey, there was no difficulty making my own decision to detach because self compassion became an obligation not an option and because staying was being inauthentic and unkind to myself - and in some ways enabling and unkind to my partner too. YES. My process has me at a point of releasing my ex with love instead of the bitterness I was suffering, with the understanding that he suffers, needs healing, and I am unable to be an objective and compassionate support while reeling in pain from the fallout of what I found devastating in the relationship. While I have let go of the relationship, I still have things to work out in myself and don't want to hurt him with my own expressions of that, even though he would have liked to continue a friendship. I'm not there right now. And I don't want to be up in his business to avoid my own business. This feels like a very compassionate and respectful position to be in, for myself and for him. We are no longer partners, we are just hurting humans trying to find our way to happier outcomes in the future. Who knows what that looks like for him, but for me, I know what I have to do because I'm taking the advice offered by those who aren't stuck, and it works. @nullified - Actually I DO know exactly what my DA is thinking and his process as he shares the highlights with me- just doesn’t expand on details. Of course, you didn’t bother to ask this before plowing headlong into your critical judgment. Maybe you should pause and question before judging. The leaving part bc something isn’t working out is a DA talent- maybe that’s why you can’t relate to staying with someone who doesn’t align to your wants and needs. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2019 15:34:25 GMT
faithopelove , I'll be be first to admit that don't have a kid glove approach to what appears to me to be deep and painful denial. You and I do not have a safe rapport. However, if deep anger, grief, and loneliness come next, I am sure you will have lots of support, empathy, and compassion on these boards. I don't mind exiting the conversation. Feel free to contribute any of your views on any of my posts here and I'll respond according to points made. Best of luck to all who seek their answers.
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Post by ocarina on Feb 14, 2019 18:07:57 GMT
The AP in this relationship is choosing to be lonely and live less than a full life because of attachment issues, what the DA is doing is nobody's business. This isn't his problem, he isn't here complaining about it. This is an AP problem, NOT a DA problem. If this relationship wasn't working for him EXACTLY AS IT IS, he wouldn't be having it. It leaves the AP lonely. Who is choosing what here, and what can one control? It begins to look like projection.
Just another perspective - or projection, coming from a relationship where the DA has been unwilling to leave, wanting to work on his issues, but also trying to keep things at his comfort level. Doesn't apply to every situation but I just can't completely validate the idea that what DA is doing is no one's business. Their choices do affect others. DA refusal to take responsibility should not be thought of as justified "minding their own business" but a manifestation of their issues, as long as they are involved.As soon as the word should is spoken it rings alarm bells for me.
Most people would like to be in a relationship with someone who's empathic, caring and has there best interest at heart and in FHL case this sounds as though this is not happening. Yes he should do all these things - but when he doesn't, then noticing that is the first step, noticing how it makes you feel the second and then making a choice about whether to engage or not.
Yes it is the DAs issues - but there is only the reality of the situation that's important here, not what he should or shouldn't do.
It could be seen that by staying one is choosing to be affected - or to allow ones self to be affected by someone elses dysfunction. The problem is that as everyone has said, the only possible choices one has in life are ones own and what someone else should or shouldn't do is somehow irrelevant.
I spent some time in a twelve step program and the lessons in loving detachment and keeping to my own side of the fence in order to allow my partner his mistakes and his unhappiness was really life changing. It became my choice to live joyfully (or as far as possible) day by day in spite of whatever chaos and behaviours were circulating around me. Thinking someone should be doing this or that is a road to unhappiness IMHO - people do what they choose for whatever reason and letting go of any judgements or control over this is a good lesson for both sides and encourages a healthy self dependence.
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Post by faithopelove on Feb 14, 2019 20:56:02 GMT
faithopelove , I'll be be first to admit that don't have a kid glove approach to what appears to me to be deep and painful denial. You and I do not have a safe rapport. However, if deep anger, grief, and loneliness come next, I am sure you will have lots of support, empathy, and compassion on these boards. I don't mind exiting the conversation. Feel free to contribute any of your views on any of my posts here and I'll respond according to points made. Best of luck to all who seek their answers. @nullified - Still here? You keep saying you’ll exit, and I told you to do so, yet you continue to make negative and clueless comments. You also claim that AP play the victim, however the only one playing the victim here is you. When you offer your opinion with criticism, character assassination and put downs, the only thing the person hears is the criticism, character assassination and put downs. Maybe this time, you really will exit. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2019 21:26:43 GMT
faithopelove , I'll be be first to admit that don't have a kid glove approach to what appears to me to be deep and painful denial. You and I do not have a safe rapport. However, if deep anger, grief, and loneliness come next, I am sure you will have lots of support, empathy, and compassion on these boards. I don't mind exiting the conversation. Feel free to contribute any of your views on any of my posts here and I'll respond according to points made. Best of luck to all who seek their answers. @nullified - Still here? You keep saying you’ll exit, and I told you to do so, yet you continue to make negative and clueless comments. You also claim that AP play the victim, however the only one playing the victim here is you. When you offer your opinion with criticism, character assassination and put downs, the only thing the person hears is the criticism, character assassination and put downs. Maybe this time, you really will exit. Please stop tagging me. If you'd like to disengage, don't use the @ symbol with my handle. Other contributors to the public thread welcomed my continued participation. I acknowledged your comments directed at me with a TAG. I am one voice on the entire dang internet. If what I said is not valuable in any way to you simply disregard it. It's a message board. One voice that you disagree with doesn't need to be a huge deal. So just stop tagging me and move on with your topic, please. |
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Post by ocarina on Feb 14, 2019 21:52:11 GMT
Sometimes I wonder if this whole attachment theory has helped me give my ex DA excuse after excuse. Relationships are hard for him, he feels triggered, he feels better off alone etc etc instead of thinking plainly and clearly- with all psychology aside, that if someone wants to be with you, they find a way to be with you. Period. When I look at things that way, it’s much simpler. And when someone leaves you after promising over and over again emphatically that they would never leave you...maybe instead of trying to understand him I should recognize this person didn’t keep his word and can’t be trusted to not bolt again at his whim.
I may be misunderstanding - but I think what you are describing here is a form of healthy detachment in that there's a recognition that maybe attachment theory is a form of enabling by allowing behaviours in a partner that are not healthy to become OK in the context of your relationship:
So by confronting the reality, the next step might be detaching in some way emotionally you will:
◾Not make excuses for an his behaviour;
◾Not try to fix his problems;
◾Avoid becoming a passenger while he's behaving erratically;
◾Leave a situation before it becomes emotionally abusive;
◾Accept that you are powerless over your partners behavior.
Detachment doesn't mean giving up, being cruel, abandoning or leaving - it means not abandoning yourself and allowing a partner to do as he or she will but with healthy boundaries in place to stop yourself being tied up in the craziness.
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Post by faithopelove on Feb 14, 2019 22:07:42 GMT
Sometimes I wonder if this whole attachment theory has helped me give my ex DA excuse after excuse. Relationships are hard for him, he feels triggered, he feels better off alone etc etc instead of thinking plainly and clearly- with all psychology aside, that if someone wants to be with you, they find a way to be with you. Period. When I look at things that way, it’s much simpler. And when someone leaves you after promising over and over again emphatically that they would never leave you...maybe instead of trying to understand him I should recognize this person didn’t keep his word and can’t be trusted to not bolt again at his whim.
I may be misunderstanding - but I think what you are describing here is a form of healthy detachment in that there's a recognition that maybe attachment theory is a form of enabling by allowing behaviours in a partner that are not healthy to become OK in the context of your relationship:
So by confronting the reality, the next step might be detaching in some way emotionally you will:
◾Not make excuses for an his behaviour;
◾Not try to fix his problems;
◾Avoid becoming a passenger while he's behaving erratically;
◾Leave a situation before it becomes emotionally abusive;
◾Accept that you are powerless over your partners behavior.
Detachment doesn't mean giving up, being cruel, abandoning or leaving - it means not abandoning yourself and allowing a partner to do as he or she will but with healthy boundaries in place to stop yourself being tied up in the craziness.
- Thank you, yes- I hear you. I feel myself detaching. I never felt this way before toward him, but I’m starting to shut off and not even feel a pull toward him. This is new to me. Not sure if I’m finally seeing the writing on the wall or if I’d enough or some other reason, but I’m feeling very distant and my former desire isn’t there. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2019 22:29:16 GMT
As soon as the word should is spoken it rings alarm bells for me.
Most people would like to be in a relationship with someone who's empathic, caring and has there best interest at heart and in FHL case this sounds as though this is not happening. Yes he should do all these things - but when he doesn't, then noticing that is the first step, noticing how it makes you feel the second and then making a choice about whether to engage or not.
Yes it is the DAs issues - but there is only the reality of the situation that's important here, not what he should or shouldn't do.
It could be seen that by staying one is choosing to be affected - or to allow ones self to be affected by someone elses dysfunction. The problem is that as everyone has said, the only possible choices one has in life are ones own and what someone else should or shouldn't do is somehow irrelevant.
I spent some time in a twelve step program and the lessons in loving detachment and keeping to my own side of the fence in order to allow my partner his mistakes and his unhappiness was really life changing. It became my choice to live joyfully (or as far as possible) day by day in spite of whatever chaos and behaviours were circulating around me. Thinking someone should be doing this or that is a road to unhappiness IMHO - people do what they choose for whatever reason and letting go of any judgements or control over this is a good lesson for both sides and encourages a healthy self dependence.
I completely agree - and actually that was not the point of my post. No one can force anyone to do anything they "should" be doing, that is not something they can control. I wanted to reply to that "it is not a DA problem / what DA is doing is no one's business" as it didn't sound right to me and might give the wrong idea to someone, but @nullified then made it clear that was not what she meant. I also know it is very human to feel stuck in that dynamic, there will be some back and forth in thinking before it becomes clear what one can or can't do without and then finding the strength to detach. Seeing how the other person keeps being involved without full investment might also evoke some healthy anger, which might be a necessary step in the process. |
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Post by sissyk on Feb 14, 2019 23:34:58 GMT
This discussion about detachment is very interesting to me. When my marriage was running aground while my XH had a textbook midlife crisis, I spent time on another support board and everyone there said detach! I can totally see its value. The only thing that allowed me to detach emotionally from my XH was time--in my case a couple of years!! (It was a 20 year marriage). Now we are friendly and I wouldn't WANT to be married to him. But I never understood HOW to actively detach--are there actually steps one can take to speed the plow? I never got the hang of it and just had to wait it out. Perhaps not helping me was that we were still intertwined daily because of our kids. Thinking out loud here--Maybe having no contact helps? For my work life, I am writing an article on getting over rejection of all sorts and bouncing back and talking to experts about it. One salient tidbit is that being rejected by a beloved is like having your cocaine taken away www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20445032/ . Texts, social media glimpses all act on the reward center in the brain. So going cold turkey eventually stops the craving. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 2:41:30 GMT
that's a really good question sissyk. my reflection of my situation is that I should always first be centered and aligned within myself. when i have stable place within myself, it's very easy to detach because you're standing in your anchor, rather than hooking that onto what's happening externally and getting jerked around by it. Having that anchor within me allows me to return to myself, to that anchor, and by default, detach alot faster/easier. it's a practised skill, comprising of emotional acceptance, mindfulness and introspection, and what ocarina said about choosing joy first and foremost. I still get angry/sad, but the emotions pass through me more quickly, and it doesn't arise from my core. I observe myself getting angry/sad, and I let it happen. If i'm feeling slightly off center, I disengage, take a step back, look at myself and how I'm feeling, and work on getting centered first. when i feel like I'm in me, that i've returned to the "full" version of me, I can then see objectively the situation. i've also realized that it's a downward spiral to craziness if you don't keep re-center and keep getting caught up with the triggers. the person who triggered you is also the least likely person to untrigger you, so continuing to engage with that person in the moment is not going to be helpful at all. so far, that's worked for me. I posted about getting angry with DA-friend; previously I would probably be alot more upset for a longer period of time. Now i'm just annoyed and more focused on what I'm going to do to enact boundaries - I still have no idea what it means to do it kindly and without threat. |
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Post by happyidiot on Feb 15, 2019 6:24:29 GMT
I haven't really read the thread, but just responding to the original question, is it possible to stop looking to blame anyone? Talking about whether something is an excuse or not looks a lot like trying to decide whether to assign blame. It feels like sometimes we get into a trap of apparently either thinking "This person is this way because of their childhood and therefore blameless and this is my fault for not accommodating their issues and being perfect" OR "This person is a jerk and I don't deserve this treatment and they are to blame!" What if it's neither?
Can't we have compassion for someone and understand what may have made them the way they are, while still seeing that they have to be in a place where they are willing and capable of putting in a certain level of effort in order to be a good partner to us, and letting go of them if they clearly aren't in that place?
It's possible to think someone did something shitty that you do not have time for in your life, while recognizing they were shaped by factors outside of their control. Understanding they have attachment wounds doesn't absolve them of a responsibility to work on their issues if they want to be considerate to others. You don't have to settle for someone not meeting your needs just because they have XYZ attachment style. Even if you get that they have a perfectly valid reason for why they're screwed up. We all do.
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Post by lilyg on Feb 15, 2019 7:29:23 GMT
Sometimes I wonder if this whole attachment theory has helped me give my ex DA excuse after excuse. Relationships are hard for him, he feels triggered, he feels better off alone etc etc instead of thinking plainly and clearly- with all psychology aside, that if someone wants to be with you, they find a way to be with you. Period. When I look at things that way, it’s much simpler. And when someone leaves you after promising over and over again emphatically that they would never leave you...maybe instead of trying to understand him I should recognize this person didn’t keep his word and can’t be trusted to not bolt again at his whim.
I may be misunderstanding - but I think what you are describing here is a form of healthy detachment in that there's a recognition that maybe attachment theory is a form of enabling by allowing behaviours in a partner that are not healthy to become OK in the context of your relationship:
So by confronting the reality, the next step might be detaching in some way emotionally you will:
◾Not make excuses for an his behaviour;
◾Not try to fix his problems;
◾Avoid becoming a passenger while he's behaving erratically;
◾Leave a situation before it becomes emotionally abusive;
◾Accept that you are powerless over your partners behavior.
Detachment doesn't mean giving up, being cruel, abandoning or leaving - it means not abandoning yourself and allowing a partner to do as he or she will but with healthy boundaries in place to stop yourself being tied up in the craziness.
This is very important, and not becoming a passenger of your partner's behaviour is very well put. The behaviour will affect you, of course, but the response to it belongs to you. Centered core = healthy response. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 8:00:28 GMT
I haven't really read the thread, but just responding to the original question, is it possible to stop looking to blame anyone? Talking about whether something is an excuse or not looks a lot like trying to decide whether to assign blame. It feels like sometimes we get into a trap of apparently either thinking "This person is this way because of their childhood and therefore blameless and this is my fault for not accommodating their issues and being perfect" OR "This person is a jerk and I don't deserve this treatment and they are to blame!" What if it's neither? Can't we have compassion for someone and understand what may have made them the way they are, while still seeing that they have to be in a place where they are willing and capable of putting in a certain level of effort in order to be a good partner to us, and letting go of them if they clearly aren't in that place? It's possible to think someone did something shitty that you do not have time for in your life, while recognizing they were shaped by factors outside of their control. Understanding they have attachment wounds doesn't absolve them of a responsibility to work on their issues if they want to be considerate to others. You don't have to settle for someone not meeting your needs just because they have XYZ attachment style. Even if you get that they have a perfectly valid reason for why they're screwed up. We all do. I agree that this is the healthy ideal. But it's a process in itself to get there. Often there is circulation between empathy (rescuing) blame (attack) and accommodation (surrender) before it eventually finds its way to the solid center. I think the Karpman drama triangle is descriptive of this kind of situation in many insecure dynamics: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle |
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