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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 15:48:41 GMT
You have a point in there @nullified but I wanted to address that "It's an AP problem not a DA one" thing, as it was very misleading in your first post, it's good that you clarified.
Provocative tones will likely be met with defensiveness, not the message itself. š
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 15:57:48 GMT
You have a point in there @nullified but I wanted to address that "It's an AP problem not a DA one" thing, as it was very misleading in your first post, it's good that you clarified. Provocative tones will likely be met with defensiveness, not the message itself. š Honestly, I thought that OP was recognizing that her problem is her own thinking, "An AP problem" , in her original post but if expounding on that is met with defensiveness, I don't mind. I just don't want to go round about a point not received well. My tone has a certain impact on readers, and I can assure you that the tone of other readers has is own quality that is unpleasant, but it's not necessary to be engaging on points we disagree on. I'm happy with the boards for other endeavors, we all are on our own paths and have the freedom to take whatever steps we need to in order to pursue our destinations. It's all good. |
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Post by ocarina on Feb 13, 2019 16:52:08 GMT
Sometimes I wonder if this whole attachment theory has helped me give my ex DA excuse after excuse. Relationships are hard for him, he feels triggered, he feels better off alone etc etc instead of thinking plainly and clearly- with all psychology aside, that if someone wants to be with you, they find a way to be with you. Period. When I look at things that way, itās much simpler. And when someone leaves you after promising over and over again emphatically that they would never leave you...maybe instead of trying to understand him I should recognize this person didnāt keep his word and canāt be trusted to not bolt again at his whim. I tend to see these things as simple - not easy however.
I'm not sure if it's an AP thing or a DA thing - both partners in a relationship have a responsibility to deal with their baggage as it impacts the partnership. So if a relationship is having a negative impact on you as a result of your partners behaviour it will make no difference to blame the partner and their wounds and then make the choice to stay - we are all responsible for our own sides of the fence and our choices.
I think attachment theory - or whatever other ways we find of understanding a partners behaviour, are limited in their use in that it's very easy to use it to rationalise and avoid the pain the relationship is causing you.
Ultimately the whys make no difference - instead the consistent how does it make you feel, may be more useful. Sometimes it's easier to use up energy understanding another person than it is actually sensing what is hurtful to you and exploring why you choose to stay in a relationship at the expense of your own wellbeing and happiness.
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Post by ocarina on Feb 13, 2019 16:58:58 GMT
The AP in this relationship is choosing to be lonely and live less than a full life because of attachment issues, what the DA is doing is nobody's business. This isn't his problem, he isn't here complaining about it. This is an AP problem, NOT a DA problem. If this relationship wasn't working for him EXACTLY AS IT IS, he wouldn't be having it. It leaves the AP lonely. Who is choosing what here, and what can one control? It begins to look like projection. I agree - none of us can force the work required to heal upon another person - but we can choose to detach with love or remain and listen to their moanings, have their issues playing out upon us time and time again.
It's not a matter of blame on one side or the other rather that both need to be allowed to have self responsibility to make a choice. Addressing these issues is a personal thing - not a moral obligation. For many people being shut down is their modus operandi because it's too difficult not to be. In a partnership with such a person - staying if it's hurting is probably not helping either party. Ask me how I know !
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 17:10:59 GMT
Sometimes I wonder if this whole attachment theory has helped me give my ex DA excuse after excuse. Relationships are hard for him, he feels triggered, he feels better off alone etc etc instead of thinking plainly and clearly- with all psychology aside, that if someone wants to be with you, they find a way to be with you. Period. When I look at things that way, itās much simpler. And when someone leaves you after promising over and over again emphatically that they would never leave you...maybe instead of trying to understand him I should recognize this person didnāt keep his word and canāt be trusted to not bolt again at his whim. I tend to see these things as simple - not easy however.
I'm not sure if it's an AP thing or a DA thing - both partners in a relationship have a responsibility to deal with their baggage as it impacts the partnership. So if a relationship is having a negative impact on you as a result of your partners behaviour it will make no difference to blame the partner and their wounds and then make the choice to stay - we are all responsible for our own sides of the fence and our choices.
I think attachment theory - or whatever other ways we find of understanding a partners behaviour, are limited in their use in that it's very easy to use it to rationalise and avoid the pain the relationship is causing you.
Ultimately the whys make no difference - instead the consistent how does it make you feel, may be more useful. Sometimes it's easier to use up energy understanding another person than it is actually sensing what is hurtful to you and exploring why you choose to stay in a relationship at the expense of your own wellbeing and happiness.
In my opinion, if you're AP your problem is an AP problem. If you're DA your problem is a DA problem. What I'm getting at is the same thing others are getting at. Making a DA's problem one's focus when one is trapped in one's own AP patterns, is an AP problem. Continually resorting to a rescuing, martyr role and claiming to be doing the work for the relationship is something that can and may be challenged, just as my pov can and may be challenged. It can go both ways. It's a good reminder for me, anyway, to keep taking responsibility for my life and relationships and happiness. Maybe it is useful after all! Being trapped in someone else's dysfunctional pattern is painful and the only way out is to address errors in oneself. Again, what I thought OP was aiming at. |
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Post by sissyk on Feb 13, 2019 17:12:39 GMT
I don't mind, I don't think it'll be helpful for anyone, and would just be a distraction. Thank you tho @shiningstar .  I know you're working hard on your own process in spite of the pain of it all, I can relate. Have a good day My 2 cents. I like getting all perspectives! Having a range of viewpoints is very helpful and bracing. When I first got to these boards asking how to make my DA feel comfortable with me, I had to don a flack jacket at times and heard stuff I didn't want to hear that turned out to be incredibly helpful. Having followed FHL's path over many posts, she is working hard on her stuff and so suggesting she is just complaining and blaming like a typical AP was a point I disagreed with you on. But I appreciate the back and forth--eventually truth gets shaped through the process, I think. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 17:20:41 GMT
The AP in this relationship is choosing to be lonely and live less than a full life because of attachment issues, what the DA is doing is nobody's business. This isn't his problem, he isn't here complaining about it. This is an AP problem, NOT a DA problem. If this relationship wasn't working for him EXACTLY AS IT IS, he wouldn't be having it. It leaves the AP lonely. Who is choosing what here, and what can one control? It begins to look like projection. I agree - none of us can force the work required to heal upon another person - but we can choose to detach with love or remain and listen to their moanings, have their issues playing out upon us time and time again.
It's not a matter of blame on one side or the other rather that both need to be allowed to have self responsibility to make a choice. Addressing these issues is a personal thing - not a moral obligation. For many people being shut down is their modus operandi because it's too difficult not to be. In a partnership with such a person - staying if it's hurting is probably not helping either party. Ask me how I know !
Nor are we entitled to someone else doing "the work" because we say we are doing the work. I agree wholeheartedly with mrob's post about sovereignty. Truly, every person has a right to their own choices and preferences, and if those choices and preferences are not in line with one's own, then the non-controlling choice is to choose another partner. Of course, until internal dysfunction is mastered , that isn't possible. And here we are. We can say that OP is entitled to her own process and beliefs... and so is her partner. It's universal and the ultimate truth that many of us are forced to face is that the only person we have the right, responsibility or ability to change is ourselves. Additionally, as the DA poster in question is not sharing intimately with OP, and is keeping things to himself, by her own account. No one here can really judge where he is at with his internal processes, what has his focus. In another post, she shared that his mind is on his children and that is his big stressor. If he were here he could share it, beyond that, it's pure speculation. There is just so much discussion about an absentee party, beyond a cursory acknowledgment of dysfunction that impedes healthy intimacy. And that's ok. It's also ok to point it out, at least in the general forum, right? |
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Post by ocarina on Feb 13, 2019 17:43:53 GMT
"
Nor are we entitled to someone else doing "the work" because we say we are doing the work. I agree wholeheartedly with mrob's post about sovereignty. Truly, every person has a right to their own choices and preferences, and if those choices and preferences are not in line with one's own, then the non-controlling choice is to choose another partner. Of course, until internal dysfunction is mastered , that isn't possible. And here we are. We can say that OP is entitled to her own process and beliefs... and so is her partner. It's universal and the ultimate truth that many of us are forced to face is that the only person we have the right, responsibility or ability to change is ourselves.
"
What I have experienced is that once I had really delved into my own painful and compassionate journey, there was no difficulty making my own decision to detach because self compassion became an obligation not an option and because staying was being inauthentic and unkind to myself - and in some ways enabling and unkind to my partner too.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 17:56:03 GMT
" Nor are we entitled to someone else doing "the work" because we say we are doing the work. I agree wholeheartedly with mrob's post about sovereignty. Truly, every person has a right to their own choices and preferences, and if those choices and preferences are not in line with one's own, then the non-controlling choice is to choose another partner. Of course, until internal dysfunction is mastered , that isn't possible. And here we are. We can say that OP is entitled to her own process and beliefs... and so is her partner. It's universal and the ultimate truth that many of us are forced to face is that the only person we have the right, responsibility or ability to change is ourselves. " What I have experienced is that once I had really delved into my own painful and compassionate journey, there was no difficulty making my own decision to detach because self compassion became an obligation not an option and because staying was being inauthentic and unkind to myself - and in some ways enabling and unkind to my partner too. YES. My process has me at a point of releasing my ex with love instead of the bitterness I was suffering, with the understanding that he suffers, needs healing, and I am unable to be an objective and compassionate support while reeling in pain from the fallout of what I found devastating in the relationship. While I have let go of the relationship, I still have things to work out in myself and don't want to hurt him with my own expressions of that, even though he would have liked to continue a friendship. I'm not there right now. And I don't want to be up in his business to avoid my own business. This feels like a very compassionate and respectful position to be in, for myself and for him. We are no longer partners, we are just hurting humans trying to find our way to happier outcomes in the future. Who knows what that looks like for him, but for me, I know what I have to do because I'm taking the advice offered by those who aren't stuck, and it works. |
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Post by unluckyinlove on Feb 13, 2019 18:52:37 GMT
" Nor are we entitled to someone else doing "the work" because we say we are doing the work. I agree wholeheartedly with mrob's post about sovereignty. Truly, every person has a right to their own choices and preferences, and if those choices and preferences are not in line with one's own, then the non-controlling choice is to choose another partner. Of course, until internal dysfunction is mastered , that isn't possible. And here we are. We can say that OP is entitled to her own process and beliefs... and so is her partner. It's universal and the ultimate truth that many of us are forced to face is that the only person we have the right, responsibility or ability to change is ourselves. " What I have experienced is that once I had really delved into my own painful and compassionate journey, there was no difficulty making my own decision to detach because self compassion became an obligation not an option and because staying was being inauthentic and unkind to myself - and in some ways enabling and unkind to my partner too. YES. My process has me at a point of releasing my ex with love instead of the bitterness I was suffering, with the understanding that he suffers, needs healing, and I am unable to be an objective and compassionate support while reeling in pain from the fallout of what I found devastating in the relationship. While I have let go of the relationship, I still have things to work out in myself and don't want to hurt him with my own expressions of that, even though he would have liked to continue a friendship. I'm not there right now. And I don't want to be up in his business to avoid my own business. This feels like a very compassionate and respectful position to be in, for myself and for him. We are no longer partners, we are just hurting humans trying to find our way to happier outcomes in the future. Who knows what that looks like for him, but for me, I know what I have to do because I'm taking the advice offered by those who aren't stuck, and it works. I hear you @nullified and I can relate to what you are saying. I (AP) am only now discovering attachment wounds post breakup with my FA. He wants friendship but I canāt do that because I still hold strong feelings for him. While a part of me wants to connect with him and let him know that āthis right here! (attachment wounds)ā was our problem, I know it was much more than that. Attachment styles are only part of the dynamic. My FA has a volatile temper any time I even ācarefullyā brought up relationship questions or tried to express my needs.. My FA was compartmentalizing me and isolating me from the other āboxesā of his life (family, work, friends, etc). My FA has a history of not being able to sustain relationships. My FA has had about five different jobs since weāve been dating all of which have ended in him leaving abruptly and in some cases in a rage. But most importantly, my FA is aware he has āissuesā but doesnāt want to do any work to ādo whatever it is that people do to fix themselves (his words)ā. I have no choice but to respect his decision and let him be who he has chosen to be and I owe it to myself to choose who I want to be. I choose to love him through it but he needs to take his own journey. Thereās a quote: ālet there be spaces in your togetherness and let the winds of the heavens dance between youā. Iām choosing to believe that we are still together in spirit, but he must take his own path right now. If that leads back to me, then fine but Iām not expecting that. I have full confidence that my pain will someday subside and another will be beside me to support me and love me in the ways I need to be loved. Meanwhile, Iām taking my newfound knowledge and trying my best to work on me. |
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Post by unluckyinlove on Feb 13, 2019 18:56:14 GMT
Oh and this really does circle right back to what faithopelove was originally posting....we can often make attachment wounds an excuse for just all around bad behavior. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 19:00:44 GMT
Oh and this really does circle right back to what faithopelove was originally posting....we can often make attachment wounds an excuse for just all around bad behavior. Yes, it got all sideways and back on the original issue that OP was challenging. Also making excuses to stay in an attempt to love them through it. Excuses, excuses everywhere and every which way. It's the trap of insecure attachment. That's what it is. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 19:05:27 GMT
@unluckyinlove , it's quite an awakening to learn that love doesn't have to hurt and feel chaotic. Letting go can hurt initially, but love shouldn't hurt consistently and for the same reasons, over and over again. I've learned from the secure and predictable relationships I have, that relationships don't have to be jarring and painful, a continual disappointment, or series of painful surprises, each one revealing the critical truth of incompatibility. Love like that isn't love, it's just habit, pattern, not knowing better.
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Post by faithopelove on Feb 14, 2019 1:32:25 GMT
The AP in this relationship is choosing to be lonely and live less than a full life because of attachment issues, what the DA is doing is nobody's business. This isn't his problem, he isn't here complaining about it. This is an AP problem, NOT a DA problem. If this relationship wasn't working for him EXACTLY AS IT IS, he wouldn't be having it. It leaves the AP lonely. Who is choosing what here, and what can one control? It begins to look like projection. But isn't this yet another excuse for the DA to avoid responsibility? Because that's what they do and that is equally unhealthy. There are two people involved. Someone wrote here a while ago about the idea that choosing to engage with someone comes with certain responsibilities - which vary depending on the level of commitment. DAs are choosing to participate in that too, it's not like they can just keep it completely on their terms and expect anyone to settle for that. It is giving without taking. They should be interested in how the other person feels about the situation - if not, they should not participate either. By staying they are giving mixed signals. It can be hard for the other person to recognize when they should leave, when they can be sure their needs will never be met. Just another perspective - or projection, coming from a relationship where the DA has been unwilling to leave, wanting to work on his issues, but also trying to keep things at his comfort level. Doesn't apply to every situation but I just can't completely validate the idea that what DA is doing is no one's business. Their choices do affect others. DA refusal to take responsibility should not be thought of as justified "minding their own business" but a manifestation of their issues, as long as they are involved. Exactly- their choices do affect others and claiming itās no oneās business is avoiding all responsibility. Itās another act of avoidance and very narrow minded. |
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Post by faithopelove on Feb 14, 2019 1:36:13 GMT
But isn't this yet another excuse for the DA to avoid responsibility? Because that's what they do and that is equally unhealthy. There are two people involved. Someone wrote here a while ago about the idea that choosing to engage with someone comes with certain responsibilities - which vary depending on the level of commitment. DAs are choosing to participate in that too, it's not like they can just keep it completely on their terms and expect anyone to settle for that. It is giving without taking. They should be interested in how the other person feels about the situation - if not, they should not participate either. By staying they are giving mixed signals. It can be hard for the other person to recognize when they should leave, when they can be sure their needs will never be met. Just another perspective - or projection, coming from a relationship where the DA has been unwilling to leave, wanting to work on his issues, but also trying to keep things at his comfort level. Doesn't apply to every situation but I just can't completely validate the idea that what DA is doing is no one's business. Their choices do affect others. DA refusal to take responsibility should not be thought of as justified "minding their own business" but a manifestation of their issues, as long as they are involved. All I am saying, is that AP has only control over her own choices, and she is choosing this relationship with a DA who is as you described. She is choosing loneliness and unhappiness, and complaining about it. She is complaining about him, and his unaddressed DA issues. I'm putting the focus on her dysfunction rather than his. This is typical AP behavior. Rescuing and complaining and blaming. The point that is being missed her is that she creates her own problem. HER behavior affects her. She is behaving codependently. This is Codependency 101. Why is the discussion about him? @nullified - Who says I am complaining? Thatās your judgement. Iām stating the facts of my situation. Iām obviously not completely unhappy or Iād walk. Your comments are extremely critical and rather self-serving. |
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I know you're working hard on your own process in spite of the pain of it all, I can relate. Have a good day