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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2022 14:45:18 GMT
I'll take a look krolle, when I can. Thanks for sharing. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2022 15:05:03 GMT
@introvert alexandra @anyone else reading..... www.social-anxiety.com/avoidance-dependence/narcissistic-thinking-in-an-avoidance-vortexThis article articulates perfectly what I have been trying to convey for a while about my percieved link between narcassism, avoidance, shame and I actually think possibly undiagnosed ADHD could be linked in too. Plus social anxiety. And my own self prophessed shame that I might be, as my detractors would say....Narcassistic. I would like to add the caveat that the author is referencing Avoidant personality disorder , and not just the attachment style. Though they do link general avoidant personality traits in there too. And I think it would be very illuminating for anyone on the "recieving end" of avoidant behaviours. And 'perhaps' help view it with more compassion and understanding. I'm sorry if this is triggering for anyone. I just found it a really intriguing read that resonated well with me and wanted to invite your commentary on it. I specifically enjoyed the story of "kim", who recounts her experience with admirable candour and insight in my opinion. I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on it @introvert as our resident (former) DA. Not that this was directed at me….but I view avoidant personality disorder and avoidant attachment as very different…..this is from Wikipedia…. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_personality_disorderspecifically this part… DSM[edit] The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) of the American Psychiatric Association also has an avoidant personality disorder diagnosis (301.82). It refers to a widespread pattern of inhibition around people, feeling inadequate and being very sensitive to negative evaluation. Symptoms begin by early adulthood and occur in a range of situations. Four of the following seven specific symptoms should be present:[2] Avoids occupational activities that involve significant interpersonal contact, because of fears of criticism, disapproval, or rejection is unwilling to get involved with people unless certain of being liked shows restraint within intimate relationships because of the fear of being shamed or ridiculed is preoccupied with being criticized or rejected in social situations is inhibited in new interpersonal situations because of feelings of inadequacy views self as socially inept, personally unappealing, or inferior to others is unusually reluctant to take personal risk or to engage in any new activities because they may prove embarrassing I haven't read the article krolle shared but I'm with you on this, I can't relate to the above criteria. My avoidant characteristics are most pronounced in relation to attachment, romantic attachment specifically. I have tended to be a solitary person and that's shifted quite a bit as I become more emotionally available and resolve my own shame, and low self worth which is a part of insecure attachment of any kind. But I've not had a globally avoidant personality as described above, it's quite a different feel to me. I've looked into this all before and have found the distinctions to be pretty accurate. krolle, have you considered a professional evaluation to assist you? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2022 15:15:30 GMT
alexandra I dated a guy who I found out later was diagnosed as being a narcissist. He still periodically contacts me, in spite of very clear boundaries I have made, which in itself points to a deeper problem, to me. But anyway, in the time I knew him I evolved continuously and that made the situation absolutely unworkable... but he was like a broken record with the same issues, words, behaviors, reactions, beliefs... all centered on how superior he is to all the idiots out there. It really was almost a caricature. Someone who also knew him used to joke, that for twenty years he's had the same conversation. Before Krolle posted this, I was reflecting on my past, my uncomfortable feelings about who I was, and how things are today, nice conincidence! Shame is useful when it can inspire change. It becomes destructive when it's used to keep us down and back. I can honestly say that when I knew better, I did better, and I try to leave it at that because I believe in the growth I've had and I love my life and relationships today. I am a new person in many ways! And, I recognize the family I grew up in as being deeply dysfunctional,generation after generation. All of my ancestors struggled against their demons, some to a greater degree than others. I count it a blessing to be able to evolve and make progress that has transformed my life and my children's lives. That's what it's all about for me!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2022 16:34:25 GMT
Well krolle, I read the article, and I wouldn't argue with her observations about Avoidant Personality Disorder.... But I don't see a connection to avoidant attachment as I've experienced it. I really can't relate to the anecdotes or descriptions of behaviors, it's a very different sort of dilemma in my experience. You mentioned Kim's experience as being particularly interesting to you but I was unable to relate to her story. I have never struggled with obligations or going AWOL... I have avoided social obligations pretty squarely I guess you could say lol, and haven't defied expectations by disappearing on people. The first guy who seemed incapacitated in his life is impossible for me to relate to as well, especially the sorry about him disappearing into a book in the face of classroom chaos. That is very hard for me to imagine, and it's clear to me that that response is handicapped by something deep at play. Those are just a couple of thoughts on the article and not comprehensive- to summarize I see avoidant attachment as very distinct from avoidant personality disorder, and relate much more with the work of attachment specialists than with this particular professionals work with personality disorders. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2022 17:12:25 GMT
So, kicking it around a little further, the reading I've done indicates a high level of social anxiety and shame in AVPD, and a strong need to belong. That's a main difference for me, setting aside the fact that AVPD related to functioning in society and at large and attachment insecurity has to do with interaction with attachment figures. I've long felt other and outside but without a lot of anxiety about that- it just is. Coping alone was normalized for me, it's not uncomfortable for the most part and I haven't actively avoided social situations with that real and present fear of humiliation or rejection. There are very different things at play. It may be that avoidant attachment can be comorbid with AVPD, but with the level of intensity around contact with other people I'd suspect that FA is more likely.
The AVPD mode of approaching intimate relationships doesn't resonate--- Yes there are feelings of being insecure but I wouldn't at all lead with a conscious fear of being humiliated or rejected- the issue is more of just not having the formative experience of being able to trust and count on a close figure to care and "see" me, also having a deep fear of loss. The overall tone of avoidance is quite different for me from what is described for AVPD. Actually the Healing DA thread nails it, focusing on the interaction with "deep family" as opposed to general society. The limitations exist in close relationship but not in general functioning, for me.
Being HSP limited my social interactions grievously I have learned- and now that I can ease my nervous system by taking measures to cushion the amount of sensory stimulation I encounter, my social life has bloomed pretty nicely!! My boyfriend and I were just remarking about the difference in me compared to two years ago. I don't have social anxiety, but I do have sensory anxiety. And, I really cherish solitude and quiet but what more introverted person doesn't. I'd say I'm extroverted one on one and more introverted when it comes to groups or gatherings, for sure. But I don't have anxiety connecting with people socially, and as mentioned before I don't avoid the rest of my life as described in that article.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 19, 2022 19:15:54 GMT
I do know FA who have done what Kim describes and match aspects of the article better. It didn't sound foreign to me. They were all people I eventually cut ties with because their lack of reliability hurt me and others, and there wasn't enough trust to have a proper friendship. (Rightfully so, as they'd keep proving they couldn't and shouldn't be trusted.) I think some had comorbid issues (one in particular had anxiety and probably ADHD and I wouldn't be surprised if he had the extreme sensitivity to rejection ADHD issue, but he'd disappear professionally in addition to personally, like in this article). But the comorbidities still weren't NPD. However, these were friends not exes, and they'd end up in mutually abusive romantic relationships. So you don't need to have NPD to be abusive or problematic.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2022 20:06:22 GMT
I do know FA who have done what Kim describes and match aspects of the article better. It didn't sound foreign to me. They were all people I eventually cut ties with because their lack of reliability hurt me and others, and there wasn't enough trust to have a proper friendship. (Rightfully so, as they'd keep proving they couldn't and shouldn't be trusted.) I think some had comorbid issues (one in particular had anxiety and probably ADHD and I wouldn't be surprised if he had the extreme sensitivity to rejection ADHD issue, but he'd disappear professionally in addition to personally, like in this article). But the comorbidities still weren't NPD. However, these were friends not exes, and they'd end up in mutually abusive romantic relationships. So you don't need to have NPD to be abusive or problematic. The article *kind of* reminded me of my sister, who seems to exhibit quite a bit of the AVPD (not diagnosing her, and it's impossible for me to get inside her head to know her level of anxiety... she's really undiscoverabke to me!). But she's pretty high functioning overall, it's just I couldn't maintain a relationship with her, kind of what you described alexandra. I always figured she was FA. These things are really complex and it's tricky taking a layman's approach to diagnosis of course. But I definitely agree traits are not necessarily PD- the diagnosis identifies a disability or real impairment in the capacity to live and function "normally". |
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Post by alexandra on Jan 19, 2022 20:41:47 GMT
@introvert, while it ultimately doesn't matter since we're not in touch and I really don't know anyway, I am now thinking the FA avoidant with anxiety issues and ADHD vanishing person I described maybe has AVPD in addition to whatever else. It fits everything I'm reading here!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2022 21:08:32 GMT
@introvert , while it ultimately doesn't matter since we're not in touch and I really don't know anyway, I am now thinking the FA avoidant with anxiety issues and ADHD vanishing person I described maybe has AVPD in addition to whatever else. It fits everything I'm reading here! I'm not big on diagnosing people either although it has held fascination for me in the past to discover patterns in people and relationships (and myself) that were predictable and something to avoid. With my sister, this kind of makes me curious because all the years she was married, her husband could scarcely get her to attend any social event (and he was very social)- so much that it became a joke to his associates that he had a fictional wife. Both she and I are vain to a degree, I don't wear makeup or enhance my body but do focus on taking care of my skin and health, hoping to age gracefully. On the other hand, for years she has relied on body enhancements (I believe cosmetic procedures, but she won't talk about it) and heavy makeup, false eyelashes, even fake toenails and it's such a facade that it was kind of disconcerting to see my sister as a totally foreign figure. I felt that she wasn't authentic with me in any way- I wonder after reading that article if she was overcome with anxiety which drove the need to cover up that way? She seemed unreachable and maybe it's because she just felt inferior, I don't know! I just don't know. But I'm a little more curious.... And she would just disappear from contact and from obligations. She seemed very checked out. The only reason to try to understand is to try to dig deeper into the dynamic, for whatever healing I might get there, or just understanding. I feel we are on different planets. |
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Post by krolle on Jan 20, 2022 16:39:15 GMT
I'm really greatful for the depth of responses. I fully agree, I dont think I have NPD, and Im not looking to be diagnosed with it.
To answer your points about its relevance to 'recovery' and development if not looking for a PD diagnosis. Then it's to help provide an understanding of behaviours that are really distressing that I can't explain. I get massive relief from being able to have a good theoretical knowledge of why I and other people do patterns. understanding reduces my shame, confusion, distress, allows me to come up with better strategies etc.
This is especially true for strange but powerful subconcious behaviours that seem on the surface to be entirely illogical. And in my opinion these are things which my therapist just doesn't touch on. Perhaps because of time constraints, or maybe just because it's not her expertise.
One example at the moment I can give. I got a text from a family member at christmas. Wishing well and asking to connect. At the time I was feeling overwhelmed by
other stuff and didn't respond. Basically ignored it. And now, even though I have time, I'm struggling to respond. And its really hard to understand consciously why I'm avoiding it. Practically it would involve 30 seconds of my time, probably a couple of calories, and minimal brain power, and I even like the person in question. But in reality the task of responding now feels monumental. Almost like theres a block where my brain just cant even pick up the cell phone when I'm thinking about trying to send that message.
And 'kim's story' really struck a cord with me. I'm sure I can't pick up that phone because of shame and embarrassment that I avoided it initially. And how that avoidance has begotten more avoidance to cope with the additional frustration of letting myself, and the family member down. I'm frightened they will be dissapointed in me. Im frightened of feeling ashamed. So I avoid, then I feel more shame.
Being able to explain it with a background knowledge of why, gives me massive relief. it gives some kind of hope almost. whereas before without I would have just felt confusion and shame as to why I cant.
So many bebaviours I have done, and have had done to me become so much less personal, so much less shameful and painful with an awareness of why. It allows me to have more compassion.
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Post by krolle on Jan 20, 2022 16:42:39 GMT
The same can be said for my ADHD 'diagnosis'. I didnt want the label in order to malinger. I havent told anyone at work, and only 1 of my friends knows, who is monitoring me for personality changes as you guys recommended after starting medication. I have asked for no extra allowances from anyone and would not presume to use it as a get out excuse. But just the understanding of why I might have really struggled all these years with unexplained behaviour is vindicating. I feel hope that with this new level of understanding I'm making real progress. Perhaps slower in my romantic life, but certainly in my personal life. Knowledge of the process has allowed to come up with practical strategies like keeping a notebook with me at all times for example. There's little more I hate than being told to do something without understanding why. This is often why you see me getting involved in tangential theoretical debates that might frustrate others the forum. Understanding MUST come before learning or trusting for me personally. There's is currently no option to "trust the process" for me, based on my core wounds. Though I do cognitively see the value in it. And I do understand why that might frustrate others who are able to trust, and know it works. So it's not that I'm trying to label myself "A" narcissist, or tnr9 that I'm saying avoidant personality disorder is the same as the attachment style. It's the recognition and understanding of patterns and causes. Reasons I have been called a narcassist before and other newbies on the forum often wonder if their avoidant (perhaps fearfully) partners are narcassists. I'm referencing general avoidance as a poor coping mechanism. And highlighting reasons why hard to explain avoidant behaviours might occur. Not necessarily in DA or even FA. But avoidance as a general human behaviour. And it's possible causes. Incidentally alexandra I just got to the part in Neil Strauss' "The Truth" which you recommended me, where he does the brain scan and the doc asks him if he's ever been diagnosed with ADD. You were right. This book does resonate hard with me, for many reasons. I also want to thank you guys for giving me your honest viewpoints. I'v said this before, but I genuinely mean it. I really appreciate it when people disagree with me, but take the time to valid my experience/process and explain their viewpoint. It helps me realise sometimes my theories have a lot of cognitive baises in them. And that I project a lot. But doesnt block me from accepting their viewpoint the same way it would if someone just flat out says my way of thinking is wrong. |
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 20, 2022 17:56:46 GMT
The same can be said for my ADHD 'diagnosis'. I didnt want the label in order to malinger. I havent told anyone at work, and only 1 of my friends knows, who is monitoring me for personality changes as you guys recommended after starting medication. I have asked for no extra allowances from anyone and would not presume to use it as a get out excuse. But just the understanding of why I might have really struggled all these years with unexplained behaviour is vindicating. I feel hope that with this new level of understanding I'm making real progress. Perhaps slower in my romantic life, but certainly in my personal life. Knowledge of the process has allowed to come up with practical strategies like keeping a notebook with me at all times for example. There's little more I hate than being told to do something without understanding why. This is often why you see me getting involved in tangential theoretical debates that might frustrate others the forum. Understanding MUST come before learning or trusting for me personally. There's is currently no option to "trust the process" for me, based on my core wounds. Though I do cognitively see the value in it. And I do understand why that might frustrate others who are able to trust, and know it works. So it's not that I'm trying to label myself "A" narcissist, or tnr9 that I'm saying avoidant personality disorder is the same as the attachment style. It's the recognition and understanding of patterns and causes. Reasons I have been called a narcassist before and other newbies on the forum often wonder if their avoidant (perhaps fearfully) partners are narcassists. I'm referencing general avoidance as a poor coping mechanism. And highlighting reasons why hard to explain avoidant behaviours might occur. Not necessarily in DA or even FA. But avoidance as a general human behaviour. And it's possible causes. Incidentally alexandra I just got to the part in Neil Strauss' "The Truth" which you recommended me, where he does the brain scan and the doc asks him if he's ever been diagnosed with ADD. You were right. This book does resonate hard with me, for many reasons. I also want to thank you guys for giving me your honest viewpoints. I'v said this before, but I genuinely mean it. I really appreciate it when people disagree with me, but take the time to valid my experience/process and explain their viewpoint. It helps me realise sometimes my theories have a lot of cognitive baises in them. And that I project a lot. But doesnt block me from accepting their viewpoint the same way it would if someone just flat out says my way of thinking is wrong. I get it….and for what it is worth….having dated someone who is NPD….you do not set off my NPD radar. I think it would be beneficial to explore ADD further…..B had ADD and it made him seem very aloof and selfish at times….but his coping strategy at the time was alcohol and drugs….and I do not think those were truly helpful as they simply dulled his ADD. I would never call you wrong and I appreciate all the avenues you are exploring. I just recall a conversation with another member who mentioned Avoidant personality disorder so I wanted to make sure that distinction was understood. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2022 18:03:23 GMT
krolle, I second what tnr9 said above, and also can relate very much to feeling relieved at finding a possible explanation for patterns that are difficult to understand and overcome. I agree that a diagnosis is useful because of the knowledge that comes with it! Better ways to frame it emotionally and rationally, better ways to cope, better ways to understand and communicate with people about it. Above all, relief from the burden of shame and isolation that these kinds of issues can cause. It seems that you're gaining some ground by exploring all these things thoroughly, that's great! I hope that answers flow your way, you certainly are doing the research and actively seeking for answers and I hope you find all the understanding and support you need to feel more at ease. I don't doubt that you will find the right guidance and tools to live the life you would like to live. Thanks for trusting all of us to have the conversation, it's nice to be a part of this community. Keep us posted on things!
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Post by krolle on Feb 1, 2022 1:04:31 GMT
m.youtube.com/watch?v=5jk7PAa8D1oI thought this video was excellent. Really indicative of my personal experience. And goes into depth about some aspects of FA other videos dont touch on.
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Post by cherrycola on Feb 1, 2022 3:13:18 GMT
m.youtube.com/watch?v=5jk7PAa8D1oI thought this video was excellent. Really indicative of my personal experience. And goes into depth about some aspects of FA other videos dont touch on. This is amazing. Thank you. Validated everything I experience in life. Down to that always trying to figure out the power dynamics and how to "have the upper hand". |
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