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Post by krolle on Sept 1, 2021 14:22:29 GMT
You do have SOME secure behaviours Dexter. Which bodes well. But you were certainly insecure before your relationship with this woman. Just perhaps more so after you got involved.
I almost gasped when I read you had moved in with her after knowing her a month. That's shockingly fast in my opinion. Unless I read it wrong.
She is almost certainly FA. She would just seem mostly DA to you because you are AP.
Remember FA is an attachment strategy also known as disorganized. In other words she is subconsciously primed to react to the behaviour of whomever she is with to maintain a set comfortable distance. But the calibration often overcompensates AND swings back and forth to achieve an ever elusive comfort zone.
Like:
"I'm uncomfortable with you this close to me I need space, this relationship is not right, youre not right for me",
then you back off...
and she's
"....OOOOH MY GOD I DON'T LIKE THIS, I LOVE YOU, YOUR THE BEST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO ME, YOU WERE SO GREAT TO ME AND GREAT WITH MY KID, I MISS YOU SO MUCH!"
...and then when you go back a month down the road......
"We made a mistake, this really wasn't meant to be. I just can't get get over the way you (insert some flaw/baheviour). I need my space, it's not you it's me.
And then....
"OOHHHHH NO! COME BACK, IV MATURED. THIS TIME IS A KEEPER. IT WAS ALL ME BEFORE. Iv BEEN DOING THE WORK....
..and well...you get the point
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 1, 2021 14:22:29 GMT
Agree. I had connection with her in different areas. Raising that little boy, home, intellectual discussions, good times of intimacy and sex, when things were ok. I felt that I belong. We discussed lot about feelings, about her therapy, narcissistic mother...But more on the rational level. She has little acces to her feelings and she verbalized that frequently. I couldn't understand that. Nor her therapist. Now I do.
Thank you for your help. Time for me too take her child to the pool.
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 1, 2021 14:27:30 GMT
You do have SOME secure behaviours Dexter. Which bodes well. But you were certainly insecure before your relationship with this woman. Just perhaps more so after you got involved. I almost gasped when I read you had moved in with her after knowing her a month. That's shockingly fast in my opinion. Unless I read it wrong. She is almost certainly FA. She would just seem mostly DA to you because you are AP. Remember FA is an attachment strategy also known as disorganized. In other words she is subconsciously primed to react to the behaviour of whomever she is with to maintain a set comfortable distance. But the calibration often overcompensates AND swings back and forth to achieve an ever elusive comfort zone. Like: "I'm uncomfortable with you this close to me I need space, this relationship is not right, youre not right for me", then you back off... and she's "....OOOOH MY GOD I DON'T LIKE THIS, I LOVE YOU, YOUR THE BEST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO ME, YOU WERE SO GREAT TO ME AND GREAT WITH MY KID, I MISS YOU SO MUCH!" ...and then when you go back a month down the road...... "We made a mistake, this really wasn't meant to be. I just can't get get over the way you (insert some flaw/baheviour). I need my space, it's not you it's me. And then.... "OOHHHHH NO! COME BACK, IV MATURED. THIS TIME IS A KEEPER. IT WAS ALL ME BEFORE. Iv BEEN DOING THE WORK.... ..and well...you get the point ok, that sounds reasonable. need to read more about FA. thanks! |
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 1, 2021 21:43:04 GMT
Brief update:
We spend a nice evening playing card games, reading fairy tales and supporting young little brave man, that had his first day in preschool after 3 months holiday. It was good. I felt attached. That I belong, and of course worthy of (AP I suppose, or...dunno).
After putting him to sleep we had some small talks, than she asked about my therapy and attachment things related to our situation. We had a good talk I guess, more like an exchange of data that we need to input into ourself. No judgements, no "fix her" on my side. Fine by me.
I need to focus on my projects at work, going abroad for a 5 days next week, so I've said it could be good for us to take 10 days brake. I feel it is good for me and good for her. But I know my anxiety will come up quickly, probably tomorrow morning. And I am ready to cope. I need to. So much. For myself.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2021 23:12:22 GMT
Not necessarily in regards to this post, but in general I disagree with the idea that a DA won't connect, disconnect, and reconnect within a relationship. If you read the Healing DA thread you will see that experts in the field recognize a DA's strong capacity and need to connect. You also can read about how the attachment system gets triggered by internal fears of engulfment, or from being conditioned not to get comfortable or long too much or trust. So it may be that the dramatic break up/reconnect cycle is more disorganized, but an ebb and flow of connection with DA is within the realm of possibilities. There can also be a Secure/DA ebb and flow where an avoidant bot all the way on the end of the spectrum can experience genuine (not anxious) attachment and then get triggered into the shutdown and backing away. I think the "energy" around it helps to illuminate whether it is reaction/reaction/reaction/reaction of anxious/avoidant within a person. What's the urgency of the reconnect? Not every time a DA connects is it urgent and based on anxiety. So then what's the energy of the withdrawal? Is it an emergency or just slipping down the slope energy?
Be careful with black and white generalizations about what DA do and don't do. Or what AP or FA do and don't do. I do think that without a ton of work to address the trauma of a narcissistic parent, the likelihood is FA here. But even DA can ebb and flow. Although, it's also very common when a DA shuts down for good that's it and it isn't even a thought to reconsider. That generally happens when something has happened over time that is so abhorrent that the reconnect just can't grow in their physiology because they are in survival shutdown. The go -to. Or, when it becomes apparent early on that more connection is expected of them than they desire, they get through the heady sexual arousal phase and the chemicals wear off and they revert to "normal" for them. But I can tell you, even with a little FA in my chart, my connection with my partner isn't based on anxiety, unless he threatens the relationship. Rather, the connection is calm and genuine and then my own triggers get tripped somehow and then I'm on the avoidant side. With awareness I just let the moon go theough it's cycle so to speak- I'm not sure that is something an FA can do because of the emergency energy around them, from what I can comprehend. Again, I dislike hard generalizations but I'm trying to parse this out as well.
So in general, there is a range of possibilities depending on the individual and whether they have secure attachment strategies along with insecure. That's something you can read about too- anyone can be a unique combo depending on a number of factors.
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Post by alexandra on Sept 2, 2021 0:53:01 GMT
Although, it's also very common when a DA shuts down for good that's it and it isn't even a thought to reconsider. That generally happens when something has happened over time that is so abhorrent that the reconnect just can't grow in their physiology because they are in survival shutdown. When I say DA won't disconnect and reconnect and disconnect and reconnect and then reconnect again with downgrades, I'm not talking about within a still existing romantic relationship. I'm talking about after a breakup. They generally aren't going to cycle back or things wouldn't have gotten to the point of a breakup in the first place. When there are relationships with multiple breakups and reconciliations, it's generally an FA or AP involved. All relationships have ebb and flow, that isn't by definition unhealthy. Breakups and ensuing reconciliations and power struggles rinse and repeat aren't healthy and usually aren't DA. |
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Post by virusbkk on Sept 2, 2021 1:44:21 GMT
After some more careful reading of your entire posts,
I'm certain this woman is an alpha widow, which is very similar to the phantom-ex phenomenon.
Although she could have more than one phantom-ex,
there is probably only one "super lover" (her gold standard) who you will be compared against at every turn.
I know it is hard to consider walking away after 3 years,
but you are in a zero-sum game. Her gains will continue to be your losses, and you will eventually lose in the end.
You're losing out on another great partner out there who will be genuinely interested in you
You're losing out on your own recovery
Time is precious - choose the people you spend it with wisely
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2021 2:04:48 GMT
Although, it's also very common when a DA shuts down for good that's it and it isn't even a thought to reconsider. That generally happens when something has happened over time that is so abhorrent that the reconnect just can't grow in their physiology because they are in survival shutdown. When I say DA won't disconnect and reconnect and disconnect and reconnect and then reconnect again with downgrades, I'm not talking about within a still existing romantic relationship. I'm talking about after a breakup. They generally aren't going to cycle back or things wouldn't have gotten to the point of a breakup in the first place. When there are relationships with multiple breakups and reconciliations, it's generally an FA or AP involved. All relationships have ebb and flow, that isn't by definition unhealthy. Breakups and ensuing reconciliations and power struggles rinse and repeat aren't healthy and usually aren't DA. Oh yes, I get what you're saying and I agree. |
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 2, 2021 8:45:50 GMT
After some more careful reading of your entire posts, I'm certain this woman is an alpha widow, which is very similar to the phantom-ex phenomenon. Although she could have more than one phantom-ex, there is probably only one "super lover" (her gold standard) who you will be compared against at every turn. I know it is hard to consider walking away after 3 years, but you are in a zero-sum game. Her gains will continue to be your losses, and you will eventually lose in the end. You're losing out on another great partner out there who will be genuinely interested in you You're losing out on your own recovery Time is precious - choose the people you spend it with wisely
I am sure she'e not an alpha widow, as far as I understand the definition. First of all, I know how much she is attracted physically to me, according to her words, much more than into anyone else in her life. And it works in both ways, creating great connection in bed (which is worth exploring further I think - the way that avoidants can be intimate sexually). That is something I am sure. Her phantom ex was a father of her child. Emotionally unavailable, married, manipulative liar. And his strength was his unavailability. According to phantom ex theory, one can be phantom ex to avoidant if is "one that got away" or was more avoidant than she is. Space that she had gave her comfortable feeling, and need to pursue was stimulating her and creating illusion of connection. And that is not my guessing, it's her. Her phantom ex played a role during our first brake up. She moved her feelings towards him, and he responded quickly, because he always tried to reach her again. That was direct reason that I left her. When we reconcilliate few months later, shadow of him was still present, which of course triggered me hugely. It took her few next months to do her job, and I know she succeded. He helped her open her eyes, trying to establish a polyamorous affair with her, manipulating and taking care of their child only when he was trying to reach her. I think it was a huge catalyst for her change. She assumed that she don't know him really, he is manipulative, a liar, have no feelings and responsibility towards his son or even no feelings at all. And whats most important - all that "connection" was her fantasy, in her head. And what was in her head differs so much from reality. I know that she made that job. We spend almost everyday together since that change. I saw that she moved towards me. And...as I am AP I need to control and reasurre, I do not trust, so months later I checked on her phone. He tried, she rejected, reducing communication to minimum. And since that time his visits to see his son are seldom and brief. He no longer plays the role of a great father.
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Post by annieb on Sept 2, 2021 16:18:02 GMT
I didn’t read the whole thing, and I’m sorry, but what is 10 days (arbitrary) no contact going to do for you? I believe at this stage it will make you hurt and long for her more. I believe this needs to be a break up or stay together. One or the other.
Another thing that stood out was your attachment to the child. He is not your stepson, since you’re not married, and he is not your son, since you haven’t adopted him. So you need to figure out what you are going to do here. I disagree with your involvement with him to such a degree unless you are the father (adopted him) or stepfather (married to her).
You need to have a DTR talk and either get married or get out. I may be totally off base, but I get a feeling that your insecurity is contributing to the relationship dynamic more than you believe it is. Every once in a while we get a person here, who is still in a full blown relationship and is insecurely attached, but is putting barriers up and basically being the avoidant (albeit not consciously). I would explore your own avoidant behaviors before I label her in any way.
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Post by tnr9 on Sept 2, 2021 16:34:44 GMT
After some more careful reading of your entire posts, I'm certain this woman is an alpha widow, which is very similar to the phantom-ex phenomenon. Although she could have more than one phantom-ex, there is probably only one "super lover" (her gold standard) who you will be compared against at every turn. I know it is hard to consider walking away after 3 years, but you are in a zero-sum game. Her gains will continue to be your losses, and you will eventually lose in the end. You're losing out on another great partner out there who will be genuinely interested in you You're losing out on your own recovery Time is precious - choose the people you spend it with wisely Have you ever dated or been friends with a narcissist? Imagine what it would be like if that was your only caretaker? Do you think you would come out of that dynamic unscathed? I think it would be beneficial for you to consider what she must have gone through and how that has impacted her ability to have mature adult relationships. Usually relationships are not black and white but a set of gray meaning there are attachment issues on both sides. |
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Post by annieb on Sept 2, 2021 16:59:38 GMT
Also personally I don’t distinguish between different types of insecure attachment. I believe we all change within each relationship, but having tested all in my day, with most prevalently FA, and lately DA, I believe you might yourself be on that spectrum. I sense condescension and superiority in your way of viewing her. Very DA if you’re asking me.
Honestly this woman sounds pretty darn great.
But with serious boundary issues. Both of you I guess.
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Post by alexandra on Sept 2, 2021 19:00:30 GMT
I'd never heard of alpha widow, but whoever came up with that has never deeply spoken to a woman or given her credit for having a rich interior world, and also never heard of attachment theory. People, of any gender, who get completely stuck on exes tend to get stuck because they're not fully emotionally processing something. It's not necessarily the breakup (or loss of connection if it was too casual to be a relationship), it's probably something that happened earlier in life than that which is pushed far down enough to not even be on the radar. So it gets misattributed to the former relationship. Even if it was due to the perception of losing someone "high value," that's still the definition of insecurity. We're all just people, some more compatible than others, and high value is a subjective social concept imposed by our minds and not real. The term for this is overcoupling, and people with attachment issues can over- or under- couple, either of which subsequently will make their own lives and that of their love interest's more difficult. jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/2372/overcoupling-stress-responseShould you be dating someone with those issues? Probably not, but it has nothing to do with the ex. |
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 2, 2021 20:48:33 GMT
I didn’t read the whole thing, and I’m sorry, but what is 10 days (arbitrary) no contact going to do for you? I believe at this stage it will make you hurt and long for her more. I believe this needs to be a break up or stay together. One or the other. Another thing that stood out was your attachment to the child. He is not your stepson, since you’re not married, and he is not your son, since you haven’t adopted him. So you need to figure out what you are going to do here. I disagree with your involvement with him to such a degree unless you are the father (adopted him) or stepfather (married to her). You need to have a DTR talk and either get married or get out. I may be totally off base, but I get a feeling that your insecurity is contributing to the relationship dynamic more than you believe it is. Every once in a while we get a person here, who is still in a full blown relationship and is insecurely attached, but is putting barriers up and basically being the avoidant (albeit not consciously). I would explore your own avoidant behaviors before I label her in any way.
10 days of no contact will help me to ease down my anxiety and look at our situation from more sober perspective. I need to concentrate on my job, daily activities, hobby and friends. I need safe distance for my own health. And it will help her I think. She reads a lot about attachment theory, she is confused, maybe bit scared. She needs space, need to proceed slowly, I think. I know her a bit. She needs time.
Yes, that boy is not my stepson. But question is...what makes a bond between step-father and kid? Marriage or genuine care since he was two yrs old?
DTR with avoidant? Just... 
Today she called me again and raised a question. What if she really commits, met my needs, be fully available and then...I, let's say a typical (i don't know) AP will feel...just boredom. Because I need to EARN LOVE. When I do not earn it, its not love. I need to pursue. She is afraid that I could leave her. I must say that I fear the same. Been there, seen that in my past relationships. BUT! - didn't act that way in my first, secure as I think relationship - she was first girlfriend after 15 yrs that I really wanted to marry and have children with (and that was before difficulties occur) - I am aware of such scenario and maybe could cope with it when it happens, just as she (hopefully), could cope when her deactivating strategies would show up?
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Post by alexandra on Sept 2, 2021 22:01:49 GMT
dexter, it's certainly a possibility. One thing people don't realize is if there are two insecure partners and only one grows into a different attachment style, it will completely change the dynamic and both people may not like what they see after the change. It's not that changing automatically means everything will be fixed and everyone is compatible. The only thing you can do is commit to going to your own individual therapy and really be driven to heal your own trauma so that you can move forward and get more secure. If you are able to get through that process within yourself, you will not be bored if she truly shows up as more committed and you're no longer chasing her. But as long as you're entrenched in being AP, yes, if she truly became emotionally available and you're not minding your side of your relationship with yourself, then you may lose interest. Because you yourself are not truly emotionally available either, the same way no one with an insecure attachment style is. The only exceptions and differences from other situations and relationships happen when both people are shifting within themselves and getting more secure, and it's happening at a compatible speed. So you can't promise her it won't happen, only give your word that you'll commit to working on your own issues so that you'll both be focused on emotional health and growth and fuller commitment to each other. That may not be what she wants to hear, but promises you can't keep sound worse to me when this is a trust issue and you're both theoretically working to rebuild it.
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