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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2021 5:17:09 GMT
I try to do a little reading about relationships each day by googling a topic. I was clicking around on this site and read this article about our inner circle and who we let in, I thought it was excellent in so many ways. I also thought it was relevant to this thread so thought I would share in case it is helpful or resonates with anyone here. www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/circle-of-trust-discernment/ What a good reminder! This is what I used to do: "What you should never do is increase trust with someone who for whatever reason has given you a reason to feel distrusting because it’s a cackhanded attempt at loading them up with more trust in the hope that they will reciprocate by ‘changing’ into someone more trustworthy and meeting your needs, expectations, and desires. Basically, phase in trust so that you have time to consistently experience evidence of it." I still do it a little bit but with much less naivete than before. What this article lacks (but probably addressed it elsewhere) is defining trust. I used to define it as whoever i had a connection with and assumed that meant that they would guard the connection. Spoiler alert: Not! |
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Post by virusbkk on Sept 21, 2021 9:39:07 GMT
Another possible reason for your continued ruminations could also be limerence, which can take between 3-36 months to go away, depending on how strictly NC was maintained.
A lot of therapists are not aware of limerence from an academic/research perspective, although there has been a lot of research about it in the social sciences.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2021 13:45:07 GMT
I try to do a little reading about relationships each day by googling a topic. I was clicking around on this site and read this article about our inner circle and who we let in, I thought it was excellent in so many ways. I also thought it was relevant to this thread so thought I would share in case it is helpful or resonates with anyone here. www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/circle-of-trust-discernment/ What a good reminder! This is what I used to do: "What you should never do is increase trust with someone who for whatever reason has given you a reason to feel distrusting because it’s a cackhanded attempt at loading them up with more trust in the hope that they will reciprocate by ‘changing’ into someone more trustworthy and meeting your needs, expectations, and desires. Basically, phase in trust so that you have time to consistently experience evidence of it." I still do it a little bit but with much less naivete than before. What this article lacks (but probably addressed it elsewhere) is defining trust. I used to define it as whoever i had a connection with and assumed that meant that they would guard the connection. Spoiler alert: Not! I enjoy the stability in my life nowadays made possible by my ability to choose my inner circle wisely. I've got low drama- at home, work, even in my social circle I limit my associates to those who share my values around our chosen activities. I don't mind exiting stage left if it becomes clear that incompatibilities exist. This is in contrast to the history I have of pushing down my own needs, accommodating bad behavior because I didn't know what healthy was, and not knowing that healthy interdependence was a thing. I also don't continue on with people who have a lot of drama from dysfunction- I don't have the energy for it and it's just not where I want my time and energy to go. I think birds of a feather do flock together and as one becomes healthier the entire landscape and population around them changes. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2021 13:52:29 GMT
annieb Thankyou for the insights into your situation and how you got over them. When you say "he liked you for what you can do for him" helped you get over him. I get confused. Because I view and have accepted (perhaps Naively) all relationships as ultimately transactional, this would not be a turnoff for me. Just basically what I expect as the norm. I can't imagine a relationship that is not based on at least some transaction. It's just that some are more socially acceptable transactions than others in my opinion. Ah, krolle, the transactional relationship. I knew that what he meant that I would simply do more than he would in that transaction and that he would expect that. And I would do that. There could be some cultural differences the way I grew up vs America, perhaps. I didn’t grow up in a capitalist country, so friendships and relationships had at least a potential of being based on something else than a tangible value. And I think they did and do for me and I still have those friendships and they are the most beautiful gift. And that is one value I refuse to give up, as it’s given me more joy than any capital I ever acquired. That is not to diss on transactional relationships as those too perhaps have their time and place and certainly a tangible value. Both are of worth is what I’m trying to say. The last time I spoke to him, he reached out to me at the beginning of the pandemic. He said he had an idea for me to do a project for him (I overdelivered and undercharged him in my younger years for projects I did as a youngin designer would). The last text I ever sent to him was a dramatic: “Can I please have my dignity. Please?”. He never responded. And I finally had my peace. For me, the difference is transactional…versus transformational….or doing thing for others because you believe they will do things in return…score keeping…..versus doing things because you love the other person and want to do it whether or not the other person does anything in return. Transactional relationship are about “me” versus transformational relationships are about “me”, “you” and “us”. Yes! There is a lot of empathy and altruism involved in transformational relationships vs. self centered ness and survival thinking. Trust comes with that, vs distrust and resultant self protection. |
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Post by tnr9 on Sept 21, 2021 14:54:14 GMT
Another possible reason for your continued ruminations could also be limerence, which can take between 3-36 months to go away, depending on how strictly NC was maintained. A lot of therapists are not aware of limerence from an academic/research perspective, although there has been a lot of research about it in the social sciences. I am not 100% certain who this was addressed to…but my therapist is well versed in limerence as a somatic experiencing therapist. How is your journey going…haven’t really seen any updates. |
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Post by krolle on Sept 21, 2021 19:50:47 GMT
What is an example of a relationship which isn't transactional? It would help me a lot to try visualize it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 0:17:10 GMT
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Post by alexandra on Sept 22, 2021 0:36:18 GMT
I was coming here to say just this, but it's already in the article linked!
"The main differences between transactional relationships and transformational relationships boils down to need versus want."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 1:55:54 GMT
interesting. I have actually switched to a more "transactional" mindset to help me keep boundaries, especially with people whom I don't know yet if they are more transformational by nature. I had tended to be rather blithe and assumed that everyone functions by (and appreciates) a transformational nature, and I would give to a point of resentment. In a bid to build my circle of trust and establish boundaries, I do "keep score" in how they treat me AND other people. As an ex-AP, I think I had only focused on whether I meet their needs but not if mine are. These days, I regulate my behavior to the best I can and if it meets their needs, that's great. If not, then it's fine we can go our separate ways. I first and foremost ask myself if my needs are met, but more importantly if they even care about meeting their needs (some pp dgaf). I def take note if they tended to behave transactionally by nature or not. I think it's normal that early relationships tend to be more transactional, but i think you can observe if someone is so by nature. And if I think that is the case, I disengage from that person. Neutrality is better than negativity.
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Post by krolle on Sept 22, 2021 10:10:13 GMT
Thankyou @introvert I have read this article before and it didn't hit home. I found it hard to understand and accept. The things the author talks about seem unrelated to transactions in my opinion. For example they talk about deep vulnerable emotional conversation that can be scary sometimes, and that's a sign of a transformational relationship. well I definately engage in those types of conversations in my Relationships, and try to meet my partner where there at, But I wouldn't consider my relationship any less transactional. alexandra perhaps you can elaborate on the wants vs needs thing.? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 11:26:03 GMT
Thankyou @introvert I have read this article before and it didn't hit home. I found it hard to understand and accept. The things the author talks about seem unrelated to transactions in my opinion. For example they talk about deep vulnerable emotional conversation that can be scary sometimes, and that's a sign of a transformational relationship. well I definately engage in those types of conversations in my Relationships, and try to meet my partner where there at, But I wouldn't consider my relationship any less transactional. alexandra perhaps you can elaborate on the wants vs needs thing.? Sorry it wasn't helpful. You do seem unable to take in information that doesn't fit with your views, on many things. It almost seems a game of "prove me wrong". I do wish you the best, though. |
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Post by annieb on Sept 22, 2021 12:36:44 GMT
krolle I think that what you’re describing as a transactional relationship sounds like what I would call a codependent relationship maybe? Where you do something with an expectation that the other person will do something for you, too. It’s about control. Codependency is usually about control, although it feels like a complete lack of control to the codependent. If I had to describe my relationship to the dude in question was that it may or may not have been either transformational or transactional, but the general dynamic was that I would put a lot more in than he would from the get go as a codependent would - trying to extract validation and approval, and he would genuinely feel that he was owed what I provided. So I still couldn’t satisfy him and felt drained (even though I didn’t recognize it) and I believe he felt drained but just having to interact with me beyond what I was giving him. I genuinely believe he was exhausted from just having to pick up the phone and speak to me even. He is DA and I have no difficulty empathizing with him. By the time I asked for complete no contact and meant it, I had gone through a lot of therapy, and in essence I had changed and was able to meet my own needs without over functioning and over giving. That’s the same dude I have absolutely zero feelings for, so a change is possible. And maybe this relationship was more “transformational”than I’m aware 😂
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Post by annieb on Sept 22, 2021 13:53:19 GMT
Also we talk about this therapy stuff often on the forum as though it's like the gold standard in treatment. I just can't see how it would help. What actually happens in therapy? I'v seen things as exotic as tapping various spots on one's body to release energy, to simply talking through your past. I just can't see how any of that would create lasting changes to somebodies outlook or mental health. I had councelling once a week for about 6 weeks and it did nothing. Just felt like I wasted 6 hours of my life. Im not saying it doesn't work. just that I can't see it. trauma changes brain pathways and structure even, apparently in childhood trauma can change the developing brain even more drastically than in adulthood. In order for us to survive trauma, our brain had to change. Once it’s changed it stays that way until we can release the trauma and work through it. It doesn’t work 100% of course, nothing does, but even a small change can help. In therapy, we dig into our traumas and in a way Re-hash and re-live them, but we also have a person to guide us to accept that it happened to us and release our responsibility for it and put the onus on the perpetrator, especially if it is a childhood trauma. As a child for our survival we came up with strategies to survive that obviously no longer serve us, so in therapy, when we confront the trauma, we re-learn to cope with it in a different way. And we learn to recognize when something is hurting us in the present and what are we trying to do by persisting in the situation we are in. Most often people seek therapy for pain they feel in the present, so usually you start by untangling a situation you’re in in the present that is causing you pain, and then you keep on that thread of why you’re doing it (why you’re in the situation your are in) and then you gain some perspective and understand you have options in how you react and options in your future situations. When you’re left to your own devices, without therapy, medication and mediation and mindfulness there seems to be only one status quo autopilot option. If you see a therapist and they encourage your status quo even though you are in pain, I would find a different therapist. I would imagine there are therapists who aren’t very good at their job, but I don’t believe they are the majority. I would give therapy a shot and give them some grace and a chance. Even if it feels scary and out of control to attempt to change. Because you will change, if you give it a shot. I think I wrote this already before 😂 |
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Post by alexandra on Sept 22, 2021 16:07:16 GMT
krolle, at the core it comes down to two healthy and whole people coming together not because they need anything specific or feel a pull or longing they can't attribute clearly enough to describe, but because they both choose to. They don't need to be together to feel complete or okay or alive, the relationship is just a cherry on top to an otherwise satisfactory life. The reason the vulnerability is discussed in the article isn't because being vulnerable as a parroted or fake it until you make it attempt at an action makes the relationship less transactional. It's because if each partner is connected enough to self that they can access authenticity and vulnerability, then it builds further mutual trust to share it without expectation (plus receiving no negative pushback in response, when it's healthy... disagreement to whatever was revealed is fine but no personal attack or shaming pushback to vulnerability, it's safe). Insecures generally don't and can't do that until they confront their trust and attachment issues separately from the relationship starting. Then they can start to actually show up for the relationship and gauge if there's real trust issues related to a partner's issues rather than projected from the past (over- or under-coupling). You can't properly attribute what's going on in a relationship dynamic if you're stuck in acting out of defense and self-preservation tactics because you'll never be able to fully see the other person for who they are, in a depersonalized way, if you've got layers of unrelated issues clouding everything. But if you're insecure you're also probably choosing partners you can't actually trust because they have mirror or complementary issues, which stokes the pre-existing defense mechanisms and patterns even further but for a directly related reason. And then it'll be about need and control and transaction instead of two whole people coming together and enjoying their choices together or apart, though preferring together.
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Post by alexandra on Sept 22, 2021 17:57:23 GMT
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