Here we go again.

I'v been trying to think about how to answer this one for a while, and struggled a little bit.



I guess why I feel I can't remove myself from the situation is something akin to addiction. Sure the situation is net negative, but thinking about the agony of withdrawal is overwhelming, to the point where I can't act. Even if it would be beneficial in the long term.



I'm reminded of a documentary I watched where there was a homeless guy who was a heroine addict. He had been shot in the stomach in a drug deal gone bad. The guys intestines were literally hanging out of the wound, and he had been walking around like that for days. When the film crew asked him why he didn't go to the hospital he said, because they would make him stop using heroine whilst he received treatment.



I wouldn't say it's the pain I'm addicted to, or if it is, certainly not consciously. Perhaps just the intermittent reinforcement, scraps of connection, fantasy. Because I'm estranged from a lot of my friends and family, I feel alone in the world. I often feel starved for affection/ connection. So my brain tells me that even breadcrumbs are better than nothing. And although I have seen improvements in my day to day interactions/ work etc through therapy and drugs, I still have no concept of being able to provide any affection/connection to myself.



One of the reasons I connected so hard with lady #1 was because it seemed like she picked me and tried really hard, we hear similar all the time on the forum I guess. And of course that made me feel wanted. Throughout our courtship she had this knack of making me feel really noticed and unique. Her initial compliments made me feel so great because they felt so personal.

I often spend time in thought, and sometimes just sort of stare and stroke my facial hair. And I would snap back into reality to notice her looking at me with a big smile, and then she'd tell me things like “I love it when you're deep in thought like that, the way you ponder the universe is special to me”.



In hind sight I wonder if she was just really good at love bombing. I suppose its not that hard for most people reading this, to understand that it would be painful to go from that level of attention, to being ghosted.

I'm not sure if overwhelming is what I feel in regards to your suggestion, more so that I don't understand it. Hard to say more than that.

I understand why it's tempting to maintain, and I get that it provides a stable platform (illusory but the best an insecure person can do). I think this is the main difference between DA and AP/FA anxious- the opposite is true for me. Once someone triggers me insecure stability is found auto-regulating which includes separation and encouragement of the self toward independence and not connection (dependence). The internal drive is to sever dependence if dependence proves painful rather than the other way around. But the abandonment does kick in. The external actions around it are different and conducted in isolation.

krolle, I understand everything you're saying and I know what the next steps are but I'm trying to think of a way to make them palatable. Since you are still not feeling the concepts of self-love and self-care and self-regulation that we describe yet as anything but totally abstract, I'm not sure how to do that. Basically, in my opinion, you've hit upon the core issues in your responses to me and @introvert. You don't want to be alone because you're still missing tools to self-regulate and you can't function well when you're triggered so you're trying to avoid being triggered. Which is indeed similar to an addict doing all they can to avoid physical withdrawal symptoms.

I think part of your fears with raising the bar is because you haven't had secure friendships and relationships on which there's a solid foundation of trust. So you don't know that it's worth going through the growing pains of getting un-stuck. One of the roles of a talk therapist is to model a secure connection, to keep going every week and establish a stable and consistent relationship just to experience what that's like (even though, yes, you're paying for the service, it's still important when you have no experiences and lack tools). To build trust over time and examine that regulation together.

If your experiences are mostly with unstable people, finding some new, emotionally healthier people to start friendships with isn't easy. It really is a matter of expanding your social network, seeing who you click with, and not investing any further if someone shows you they can't be trusted. This is frustrating and can also feel like rejection because it's hard for AP/FA to walk away from unhealthy connection without triggering abandonment fears. There's literally conditioning to keep you attached to people who mistreat you, leftover from having to tolerate it in childhood.

I do believe you need to want to make the investment to try to do something different and get guidance to learn the tools to live with the discomfort of the trial and error in exploring new relationships and friendships and experiences that don't work out well. To introvert's point, turning inward and committing to honoring yourself by walking away from mistreatment instead of relying on unhealthy others to do what's best for you (since they can't, they can't even do what's best for themselves, you'll always be stuck in this emotional trap you're in now) is the way forward for AP and FA, not just DA. All the styles need to learn healthy sense of self and boundaries, which directly informs healthy independence and interdependence.

But it's still got to be your choice to want to try something different, and it's going to go back to whether or not the pain of staying as you are now (needing a crappy ex as a crutch to feel physically healthy enough to be productive and not anxious day to day, with that person probably getting transferred in the future to a new toxic attachment figure) is greater than the fear of the unknown and the growing pains that will come with more processing and trying something new. The thing is, it will hurt to grow. BUT. That pain will probably be temporary and have an end once you are growing and processing and healing, whereas the pain you're experiencing now without change will just be indefinite. And then it's taking responsibility for your choice, if you prefer the devil you know over the devil you don't.

Thankyou for offering to listen to my thoughts @introvert. And Thankyou for highlighting some fundanental differences in the way things are felt and percieved between the anxious and avoidant sides, as would be expected. I hope you are enjoying your trip. I will ponder your advice on self trust a little more.

To use your comparitive example that might give you a little more insight into the internal sensation of a triggered anxious type. It would not be to compare how it feels to be disrespected vs being alone.
But to compare how it feel to be disrespected vs having the threat of a loved one die. It sounds melodramatic, but thats is a little closer to the sensation of a seriously triggered anxious style. At least acutely. The fear of loss, and that they might not be part of your life anymore etc.

Regarding my thoughts that raising the bar will leave me abandoned and alone. It's related to my cynical world view. That relationships are transactional and darwinian.
I see myself as low value so I accept a low standard of partner who treats me poorly. To use an automotive sales analogy I view myself as a beater so I only believe someone would choose me because they can't afford better. (unavailable, personality disordered, undesirable in some way themselves etc). To continue the analogy, if I market myself as being worth more but in reality am not, nobody will "purchase" me. I accept scraps because thats what I believe I am worth. By raising the bar I will lose the low ball offers I'm good for.

I guess one often argues that by simply raising the bar, it's a signal to other "buyers" that you are worth more. And I guess I can see the merit in that. But more often than not it comes across to me as delusion, and any 'aware' buyer would see through it. I know several middle aged men and women who are quiet terrible dating prospects, but hide behind a curtain of sass or machismo by saying they're worth more, but are still alone and have few options.

But I certainly believe self improvement affords you better dating options so I have certainly been working on that, and seen a good amount of improvement. But I also believe in the entertaining phrase "you cant polish a turd" 😁

Ahhh, I see- that's a big difference between 'being alone' and the thought of a loved one dying. That's what I was missing- that deep primitive attachment to an attachment figure. I'm sorry because I didn't mean to minimize it, I just go through this all differently. :/

I get what you're saying, about the rest- I used to feel most at home and had a sense of belonging with the broken. It was almost an immediate sense of "oh yeah this could work" when I saw that they struggle too. Being around people that seemed to have it all together caused me to feel shame and 'less-than'. I can't at the moment say how I got from there to here, it was a long process over years, many facets.

I think that the words we use to speak to ourselves are important though, and very powerful. Is there any way you can see or describe yourself in a compassionate way, or a way that gives you a bit of a break? If you see yourself and others without much value then of course that's a very tough place to start.

I've been enjoying some quiet time with tea in the mornings to check in here, overall a very nice vacation!