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Post by mrob on Jul 13, 2023 14:15:04 GMT
Old threads revisited are actually good. I reckon it’s a way of measuring progress. I suggest you look at this. You’ll see that FA symptoms are the inconsistency of AP and DA, but being neither, so even though you may be acting avoidant now, the time will come when you’ll be triggered anxious. jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriends-the-book/fearful-avoidant/?amp |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2023 15:39:55 GMT
There's a bit of a difference between dismissive and fearful avoidance, having to do with the source of trauma, it's nuanced. And yes, formerly anxious can give up and become dismissive avoidant. The difference between Fearful and Dismissive is the Fearful is fleeing and hiding and the dismissive has collapsed and given up, in terms of the feel of it. The Fearful is Fearful, the dismissive is despondent and tries to move away to self soothe and be invisible. That's not a great explanation but there is a different flavor.
But we have elements of all. It becomes a moot point to parse it all out and try to diagnose it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2023 16:09:27 GMT
BTW this is funny and a little pathetic
...
I took a test the other day to see where I land and had to really be honest and admit some anxiety. I thought for sure I was going to come out anxious or FA... but my results were secure. Of course it's just a test! But my avoidant perspectives have changed for real, at least many of them. A therapist told me I would likely always retain some deep avoidant coping under stress. But what's funny and pathetic to me is that some normal, human responses to relationship and bonding seem anxious to me, in some ways needing or worry feels weak, etc. I'm generally much more secure but I have nooks and crannies of insecure thinking and behavior. I think that's even normal for a secure person. It's about the direction of prevailing winds and the form that storms take I guess.
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2023 1:07:45 GMT
Everybody is a mix of styles. anne just made but took down a fantastic post, she's got a ton of good input here about instinctive longing for partnership, adhd and perimenopause, and one good point that a woman in survival is not available for love because she's in SURVIVAL. A certain amount of safety and stability is needed to become emotionally available. So it's a complex set of conditions and influences. I personally would turn away from the AP stuff for a bit because it seems the least appropriate interpretation with single parenthood of an autistic child, neurodivergent, and perimenopausal in the mix. This is also really interesting because I was just telling someone this. The reality is that I am always in survival. If not because of my life plunging me into it at least 1x a month, then my own history of trauma. But then the thing is this. I will never meet a partner based on that. There's just no way. And I think that's what this thread came down to -- which is that -- I'm gonna be direct. I'm gonna talk from reality. Single mom, neurodivergent myself, trauma history, autistic kid, no support - financial/emotional/etc - who tends to shut down and isolate (because honestly the effort is never worth it) and every inch of time I have goes toward a, b, c, surviving - when I do have time, I reach out to a friend or go for a walk or stretch my body or hug my dog, but by the very nature of being a single parent I'm in a paradoxical state of chronic survival. I think that's where this thread may have gotten wonky - the suggestion that I somehow (or anyone) wouldn't be. But maybe no one was actually "suggesting" that -- just that reality is people are in survival mode. I do not have the belief that anyone single parenting is not in survival mode. By the nature of being human, we are wired for connection and community and tribe and village, and so this isn't personal to me. I know we all have the idea that there's church, and groups, and community, and friends - but the truth is when it comes right down to it those places can suck too! I just started a huge community that miserably fell apart due to a toxic person in the mix and I put every bit of myself into that. I've had another community and got sucked into putting in way more time than what I got out of it. My sense is that married or not, a lot of people are in survival mode right now for various reasons. So then what? I guess that's where I got a little confused and miffed here. Like why hold myself to this standard of I will be the only single parent out there not in survival mode and create enough time in my world for that man to come in and have enough room for him. It ain't gonna happen, lol But I do get that we have to come not from a place of desperation, insecurity, needing rescue, etc. I think I can clearly separate that out. It think I very much *used* to do that, which is interesting b/c I was much more into searching for someone back then. And now I'm not. I'm just living life, but I've also apparently swung a bit avoidant. So I think the trick is to make peace with my regular survival mode as a human on earth, understand that survival mode won't really end until I have WAY more support and WAY more support is just not around me right now. Survival mode would likely begin to shift if I had a solid man in my life - but not because he's rescuing me or I'm needy. But because practically speaking, a second adult in my life - in my child's life - would make things far easier. And there was a time when that was just how things were. (I know romance was always a thing, but I do know arranged marriages and marriage for practical reasons is also a thing). So I'm probably more on the side of practically speaking, I would love someone who could be on board. And yes, I know there has to be love and commitment and similar interests and getting along etc. It's a complex thing indeed! But I'm far better off than I ever was on this journey. |
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2023 1:29:35 GMT
And, having just written what I did (which I started this morning so the whole day has passed) - is that I get that someone in survival mode is not attractive necessarily - they are in fight or flight and matching up in that state is probably a recipe for disaster - ventral vagal is our soft muscle tone and smile and calm and twinkling eyes- and I do smile at people on the straight, stop in the coffee shop and know everyone. In fact, men smile at me. I smile back, vice versa. But I'm not in like pure feminine energy. I don't have circumstances that entirely support that.
And the other thing I wanted to add is just that I've actually come to a place that, while I'd still really love to meet a great guy whose a great match for me, I don't feel like I'm in that place in my life anymore? It's weird. I don't even know how to explain it. But I just don't think I have that in me anymore. I've been through so much relational trauma and men have been such a source of confusion and overwhelm and trauma for like 30 years. I don't know at this point what I can really expect.
I remember Alexandra saying something about companionship and I railed against that - I'm not 85! I'm not in a nursing home! But in many ways, I am old, I've been through so much. I'm a little saggy now (ack!) and while no one ever guesses I'm the age I am, I have a lot of world weariness - PTSD really - and while I think I'm more sane and stable then a lot of people I see out there dating, I am pretty hesitant. It would take a lot for me to trust someone and get to know someone and there's not really any "someones" floating around for the moment.
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2023 12:02:08 GMT
YES, daddy issues can persist throughout life without being the driver of all you do in relationship, it's a matter of if you're self aware and have healed to a point of having a scar instead of a gaping wound. I continue to heal in the relationship I'm in, I didn't have it all tied up with a bow either. I don't believe you've got to be all squared away and totally secure to get into a good relationship. Self awareness and a growth trajectory can bring you into a "good enough" relationship where there is still work to do but you do it as a team overall. There will be intensity and some conflict in ANY stressful situation (like parenting neurodivergence) and attachment security won't make it smooth, that's just the reality. It will be bumpy with a friend and lover is what it will be. It will be hard, still, with a friend and lover by your side. Security will allow you to navigate the triggers, complexities, conflict, and joys of partnership, there is room for messiness especially with neurodivergence in the mix. I would say that is where I'm at. I definitely know that I have zero tolerance for insecurity stuff now - which is probably why I've been single so long. It just feels like being sober and knowing I can never ever go back to the bars, back to the drinking. But I haven't yet had a sober relationship but I'm sober. I will say, though, my dad issues are pretty much at the forefront right now. But I'm very aware of them. I like how you said this - I see conflict play out in all my relationships and I just cut off the ones (and unfriended, blocked, detached from) that felt like energy sucks and draining drama triangles (all but with my family). The folks who can do conflict, communicate, are trying, I'm still with them. I just still tend to shut down (which I didn't used to - the alternative was to fight and pursue) I don't even know if shutting down is the right way to say it - but back off. I want healthy interactions that feed me. And where I feel seen and appreciated. |
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2023 12:39:16 GMT
I think that embracing your messiness is part of healing... you're good enough right now, there's no shame in having the struggles you do. The idea of having to solve every last attachment dilemma to be ready for partnership is more fairy tale to me, than still having some struggles and opening to intimacy in that place. You learn as you go. Both partners are going to have scars and tender spots to reveal to each other, and then you learn how to meet the other where they are. The struggles are part of building a relationship, it just takes enough self awareness to know if you're with a partner who can move through it constructively, in a way that brings recognizable growth and increased intimacy rather than looping in some dysfunctional cycle. A neurodivergent will likely never have it as "wrapped up" as a neurotypical, and that is absolutely okay. LOVE this. I feel like you named where I'm at. It feels good to be here. And that's what I meant when I just said I definitely have zero tolerance for insecure stuff. Future guy can be a bit messy too but it's the constructive part I'm looking for - the communication, conflict resolution, awareness and intention. When that stuff is lacking in any relationship right now - I'm done. I have worked to hard and lived through too much to put up with that now (with the exception of family which is another story). This is so well put. Thank you! |
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2023 12:51:16 GMT
There's a bit of a difference between dismissive and fearful avoidance, having to do with the source of trauma, it's nuanced. And yes, formerly anxious can give up and become dismissive avoidant. The difference between Fearful and Dismissive is the Fearful is fleeing and hiding and the dismissive has collapsed and given up, in terms of the feel of it. The Fearful is Fearful, the dismissive is despondent and tries to move away to self soothe and be invisible. That's not a great explanation but there is a different flavor. But we have elements of all. It becomes a moot point to parse it all out and try to diagnose it. I get that it's a moot point, but I think I'm more interested in understanding my strategies lately since they are different/new and wanting to see if they're coming from insecure places or healthy (I now know the flavor of that). And I get what you're saying here. Makes sense. |
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2023 12:51:29 GMT
I'm pretty sure I get the difference between FA and DA - reading just the beginning of what MRob posted, and having dealt more with my sister in recent weeks, I am fascinated with the idea that DA "replaces" need by developing high self-esteem - that is my sister, but also ... just. How do you replace insecurity with high self-esteem?
I would always wonder - my sister and I, granted very different and 6 years apart - were born of the same toxic soup and she struts around and is on a high horse while also recently sharing with me that she and her husband talked and both admitted they would divorce (but aren't going to?) and that she is "Like mom" and is "independent" and would miss her husband a little but is fine without him. And that "90% of women are annoying" and really just likes her time to herself.
She's also just not available. As I guess is true of DA. She's also said really awful things to her husband that she admits are abusive.
Around her, I used to be more AP. But now I'm not.
We had a lot of recent drama with our parents, and she is reaching out to me, and texting, emailing. And I don't respond. Or if I do, I'm very direct and clear that I will not be in communication if a, b, c happens. It's very new to me. And a little surprising. But I guess it's a defense strategy I've had to develop to survive my family crazy.
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2023 13:21:57 GMT
I know I just wrote like 20 new responses here in this thread, lol. But I want to make a list of recent exchanges and interactions I've been observing in myself -- I keep saying, "I shut down" but I really think I'm just having normal boundaries
1. My ex's father tried to friend me on Facebook. Even though I talk to his father, I deleted the request.
2. A person from my past friended me on FB (a guy I never dated). I asked him if it was really him and what he was up to - he shared. But nothing more. And so I unfriended and deleted.
3. A person I dated in college started following me on Instagram, I blocked him (no interest) (plus, he's a little - or maybe a lot - crazy).
4. A person I dated 2 years ago who persistently texts me every few months messaged me. I ignored, of course.
5. My ex sent multiple texts about my daughter coming to his house. I had no intention of sending her there, so I didn't respond to texts (saying "not this weekend" generates more and more texts and engagement that I don't need) I temporarily blocked him so as to not see more texts and be triggered. We had a few exchanges b/c they are going on to a camping trip this weekend. I see places in his email he is trying to provoke me. I don't respond to his provocations.
6. I very much exited the co-op I started - people asked if they can keep the same FB groups I created and I said no I was deleting them. Then I left a chat they were in (everyone can see I "left the chat") and I unfriended my co-partner on FB.
7. I got triggered in a relationship (b/c she was in chronic victim mode, even as she was going to be inheriting millions of dollars), and gave myself LOTS of space - like 6 weeks. She hadn't heard from me in that long (on the usual app we'd communicate on) yet kept liking every one of my FB posts. I hung on thinking "Well, if I ever need her for ...." And decided against that, and unfriended her on social media.
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2023 13:24:08 GMT
8. A friend of mine who is definitely avoidant had a get together and as she as talking to me, admitted, "I didn't invite you b/c I knew you probably wouldn't come and you know how it is when you get an invitation you can't come to." (??)
When I first called her she answered and said, "Oh hi. I'm so bad at reaching you to you. I'm sorry. I know you reach out to me more than I do you." (Or something like that).
Often when I'll call her (clearly just to say hi and catch up) she'll ask me if I'm calling for a particular reason (In all fairness, I have called her before for specific requests - help with a letter I had to write or a boundary I had to set) but I also find this odd.
So after that, I stopped reaching out to her <---- this is where I say "I shut down" but did I? why would I keep reaching out after she said those things. I figure I'll wait for her to reach out to me and if she doesn't, she doesn't. I was also fully prepared to talk to her about it (not be secretive about why less contact). So she did reach out to me one night saying things are tough for her. I didn't have time to get back to her but her birthday was the next day, and I reached out to say Happy Birthday.
The second time she reached out, she was outside my house. I couldn't come out (we live by a playground and she was there with her daughter). But I talked to her on the phone while running around doing stuff b/c I had to bring my daughter somewhere.
She again said she was going through a hard time. I said, "Well let's go for a walk some time." And she said right a way, "Oh no, I have support." (??)
And later in the brief convo when I again said "We should go for a walk," She immediately said "Oh I thought you couldn't." (She knows my daughter has severe separation anxiety and won't stay home alone - even during the day - to let me go for a walk). I told my friend she was going away with her dad this weekend, so maybe this weekend.
And, in the end, I know it will be fine. If we walk, we'll just catch up and support one another. But .... ? Anyway, I didn't get caught up in pursuing all this and parsing it out like I may have in the past or kind of bypassing and people pleasing.
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2023 13:29:23 GMT
9. My family. Oof
Sister calls me out of the blue to tell me how bad her marriage is. I listen. I say a few things here and there, but mostly it's a lot of contradictory stuff. And I offer something and she counteracts it. So I stop talking. That's that. I reach out to her more a few times and notice my old pattern - our old pattern - of once we connect, we start sharing more and inevitably it becomes more about her - calling me to rattle stuff off and be witnessed, but not a lot of seeing me, hearing me, curiosity about me. I think she has a fixed idea of who I am and so it's not like a genuine curiosity. She claims she'll take my daughter one day or do this or that, but never does. And then inevitably we have a falling out and don't talk for months, that was our pattern for years.
This time, I am too busy and not interested in the pattern.
She would call me and talk at me and I finally just disengaged by not really responding to texts.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2023 14:36:33 GMT
Idk how exactly to approach the idea that DA replace insecurity with high self esteem. I don't think it's that simple, take A off the table and replace it with B.
What happens when you give up on depending on caregivers or attachment figures, is you depend on yourself. It's a different approach to the world. It isn't all conscious and planned, it's an outcome of isolation. High self esteem can naturally develop from applying efforts in areas that bring success.... hobbies, career, studies, exercise, etc... these are all things that a DA will prioritize over relationships, and these are things that don't necessarily require an interpersonal dynamic which might otherwise "define" a person. It's independent type stuff. The high self esteem isn't necessarily false... if you dedicate your energies toward something and it rewards you, you feel good about it, feel good about yourself.
A lot of people that I observe have feelings of low self esteem related to relationship failures or struggles. If a dismissive avoidant dismisses the importance of relationships, they also dismiss the importance of the negativity that arises from relationship failure. It's a self protective action, and it's just a hard wired response... the giving up, letting go, rather than pursuing. It originates in the nervous system but is a highly mental space to be as well.
If my relationship is threatened, my immediate knee jerk reaction is to go into a mental loop reassuring myself I will be ok, and actually planning out how I will be ok. It is a survival based mindset, which combines real faith, determination, and planning, but also whistling in the dark if it's an important attachment. There is pain that is managed by focusing on solo survival. Not that I won't get triggered anxious and do some acting out, but that would be shorter lived because it induces high degrees of shame and embarrassment, and then flight and hiding might take over, then back to a focus on restoring myself and my autonomy and my world.
Self worth is different from self esteem, and there are threads about that. Self worth is something I've developed intentionally, it doesn't come natural to any insecure person. It evolved with the work. I'd say earlier in my life, when I was younger, I did not have either high self esteem or self worth, I just had mud for a brain. I had a shield and a facade, maybe even more of a false self, more of an Dismissive leaning FA position. I have given up trying to figure all that out, its just confusing and feels gross to me to spend time with. There is enough trauma in my past to lend plenty of FA dynamic to the mix, although I struggle to relate to the internal workings that people share here when working through their FA stuff.
Anyway, just providing my perspective on that facet of all this. I'm not an expert in all of it, it's just my experience.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2023 14:57:07 GMT
Also, I think low drama relating is appealing not to just avoidants, but to securely attached people as well. The difference is in how low drama is achieved. An insecure approach is dismissal, and all kind of insecure strategies. A secure approach is healthy boundaries, and being able to see the forest for the trees to not get sucked into drama in the first place.
A dismissive has walls, but not good boundaries and that leads to dynamics where we get overrun, and have to defend ourselves by withdrawing while remaining in place, until we leave and are done.
The instances where you simply choose not to re-engage with people from the past just seem like good boundaries to me, especially on social media. I don't take social media as a serious approach to human interaction, it's more of a cocktail party for passing time and entertainment, its as shallow as it gets. No form of electronic reunion is significant to me and I don't do it. The internet and tech based communication facilitates meaningless connection and I just don't bother with people who return to my life in this way, and I don't consider it shutting down, just saying no to something I truly have no interest in.
Shutting down happens in response to a trigger. A blast from the past coming round in the form of pixels doesn't trigger me at all.
The other scenarios are more laden with emotion and could be explored more, although withdrawing from toxic dynamics seems healthy to me. Not getting into them in the first place is more where I am at these days. I am much less involved than you are socially, though. I've never been one for friend groups or multiple friends, I tend to have my bestie and an intimate partner or not... but I get a lot of connection at work. Those relationships are pretty compartmentalized though. So maybe that's all more to do with introversion vs extraversion, I'm not sure. My avoidant bestie has LOTs of friends and she's always going out and doing this or that. There are many factors at play in our personalities and it gets too complicated for me to analyze, that's when I shut down 😄. I get to a point of not even caring about the how and why.
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2023 15:44:47 GMT
9a (lol) so situation with my sister. (And this is post all the family drama which I'll write a bit about). But my mom gets stung by a bee. She sends us a photo the next day. It doesn't look terrible and clearly she's not in danger of an allergic reaction. I'm working and I do something that's basically energy healing which I use on clients and myself, daughter. My sister sends me a million texts about it and should she go run a homeopathic remedy over there (they live 30 minutes away). I say "No, I've got it. Let's see how she does." And continue working.
By the time I pick up my phone again, there's now messages about the family drama from the other day, our dad, how her stomach is in knots, on and on. It triggers me and I go into my own stress-survival mode and now am seeing clients trying to calm down my own system (even though that's what I do for a living is be present to others). I ignore it but feel angry. One because I already am taking space from my father right now and she's continuing to talk to him then telling me how it's affecting her. And two because there's like total disregard for the fact that I'm holding space for people, taking care of my own life, etc. I'm just watching everyone continue to react to one another with seemingly no ability to do something different.
So the next day, she starts texting me again in the morning - same situation - I have clients, she's sending text after text including me in the drama. I write an email and tell her it's best to send email since I have to look at my phone while I'm working but get triggered by a bunch of texts. And I drew my line - I said, if this continues, this is what I'll do (with my family and father). I told her she didn't have to go down to Mom's to bring the medication but I know she has anxiety too...
So then she writes me a zillionth time to say Dad apologized (he never does) and that he's very flustered and mom needs more help and should sister do a, b, c.
Yep. This is the merry go round. Every time something happens, it's "Mom needs more help and should I do this?" Why not a) just go ahead and do it b) recognize mom needs help and hasn't stopped needing help c) it's the same pattern of telling me this yet doing nothing about it.
Oh, and that "I don't have anxiety."
So I ignore all that too.
And again, this is what I'm calling "Shutting down" but when I really go through and think about it, am I? Am I being Avoidant? Or am I just being sane? Yes, I'm triggered and my trauma activates me and then I either a) lash out and say things I'll regret or b) shut down. But right now between those options, I tend toward saying nothing, biting my lip, and then waiting until my activation comes down to say something (if at all) more reasonable. This doesn't always work on everyone's timeline - i.e., people want to talk to me before like a week passes. But I think it's all I got right now.
I've still said nothing.
So this morning, she texts me some more to say the remedy she gave mom is really working! And I write "cool" and then another text, "And she even called me to ask if she should take more." I say, "Yeah, that's great."
It hurts me that I can't get what I need from my family. That I get lashed out at so often (esp from my dad), that I can't be genuine with them, really, and have to sit back and go "Oh." and "Great." And it's weird to me that my mostly DA sister goes into this mode again and again. But apparently has no anxiety
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