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Post by tnr9 on May 15, 2023 2:47:53 GMT
It may not relate to you so I would rather you marinade on it and see if anything in what I said brings up anything. 🙂 I think I meant more syntactically I couldn't make sense of it. But what I see is that I have a strong threat response born out of complex-PTSD (which I have, especially complex relational ptsd), and when I go into threat mode, I behave like a scared animal (or as a therapist put it, a rescue dog). And that it's hard for me to maintain a sense of safety with other people esp with the wounding. I'm doing enormous amounts of work on the wounding. And have for some years, but it's still pretty strong in me. But I guess I didn't know what you meant about how other people treat me. I think maybe you're saying I'm looking at that through the lens of trauma? If so, I agree. But we know from polyvagal theory that we have different nervous system "states" and one is fight - one is flight (I get these and do these both very well) one is shut down and freeze, and another is safety and social engagement - and I'm working to be there more and more and more.... even to the point where I have to regularly retrain my brain. But anyway, if I am looking at things through the lens of fight or flight, then things will look largely scary! Also aware of when I'm doing that, so that's helpful. Not that I can always change it - but at least I think I now have the awareness - and can observe more and not get totally sucked in. I understand the scared, caged animal and the high threat alert….I have that too…but it isn’t from PTSD… mine is from distrust of other people’s intentions from when I was very young. Usually it starts out as a general sense of agitation and then turns into paranoia and a huge desire to flee. Mine mainly comes out while driving and occasionally while I am doing my hobby. My therapist believes this really stems from feeling infringed on….but we are doing a whole lot more in this space. A few years back I was convinced this one guy liked me and i did not have any tools to deal with someone liking me and me not liking him back…so I grew to resent him and tried to avoid him. And looking back on it….he really wasn’t a threat…it felt like he was infringing on my right to chose who I liked and my nervous system went haywire. It was completely irrational….and more then the situation should logically allow so I have been considering where the initial threat feeling came from….who was not safe. |
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Post by seeking on May 15, 2023 2:55:30 GMT
As long as you have made it clear to him that you are not planning on corresponding post meeting…and he is still interested in meeting…great. But I think part of the flee response is to only address your side of things…and that can lead to misunderstandings. I haven't spelled it out, but this time last year when he was at his parents for 5 weeks, we didn't correspond much. He may have written to me, but it was like the same stuff. Not asking me much, just sharing his day or whatever. I meant more, I don't plan to continue to generate emails - and just meet at nearest possible date, which just happens to be late-ish july. |
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Post by seeking on May 15, 2023 2:58:02 GMT
I understand the scared, caged animal and the high threat alert….I have that too…but it isn’t from PTSD… mine is from distrust of other people’s intentions from when I was very young. Usually it starts out as a general sense of agitation and then turns into paranoia and a huge desire to flee. Mine mainly comes out while driving and occasionally while I am doing my hobby. My therapist believes this really stems from feeling infringed on….but we are doing a whole lot more in this space. I think I had this too before it turned into full-blow PTSD with my daughter's dad. And then the combo of losing our home, everything we owned, 2 years in court, and covid all in a short time span along with a school community and my in-person business, I haven't recovered (trying, though). But can you say more about driving? Do you mean driving your car? Just asking b/c I deal with pretty bad driving anxiety and it's gotten worse with what I mentioned above, and I'm exploring all this in the context of relational trauma (which seems like a stretch, but it's not been in what I'm finding). |
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Post by seeking on May 15, 2023 3:09:51 GMT
A few years back I was convinced this one guy liked me and i did not have any tools to deal with someone liking me and me not liking him back…so I grew to resent him and tried to avoid him. And looking back on it….he really wasn’t a threat…it felt like he was infringing on my right to chose who I liked and my nervous system went haywire. It was completely irrational….and more then the situation should logically allow so I have been considering where the initial threat feeling came from….who was not safe. Oh wow, that's interesting. I'm so glad you have someone to help you uncover this. So valuable. I know completely it's not about him. I've known that all along. He does remind me of a type of man that I've rarely dated -- generally they are benign. They're not like narcissistic or abusive or toxic (well, one might have been a little just in his own love addicted/unhealed trauma way). And I would become enraged with them. Almost because of their benign-ness .... or something? That's what what your saying above kind of reminds me of. Like I would "act out" or something. And it wasn't about them. But I still don't know what that was. Maybe just a safe-enough person to have a tantrum with like, again, the metaphor of the rescue dog or like an orphan. |
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Post by alexandra on May 15, 2023 5:14:00 GMT
Insecures can feel dysregulated by secures (or otherwise benign people who aren't causing drama). Not because the secures are doing anything to cause it, but because the insecures are used to dealing with chaos and bad communication, and not having it feels unfamiliar and foreign and you don't know how to react. Sometimes, it leaves too much quiet and unaware insecures can't sit with themselves or deal with themselves so they want a partner to cause chaos to distract them. Sometimes it makes them feel too messy in comparison to someone who is more together (you've described that before), and sometimes the insecure can't handle someone not causing drama because it feels too good to be true and the insecure nervous system can't stop scanning for threats. Which means the insecure will never trust them. So there's lots of reasons a potentially "benign" person can cause that reaction without it being one bit about that person. That's just examples I can think of off the top of my head.
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Post by tnr9 on May 15, 2023 13:54:40 GMT
I understand the scared, caged animal and the high threat alert….I have that too…but it isn’t from PTSD… mine is from distrust of other people’s intentions from when I was very young. Usually it starts out as a general sense of agitation and then turns into paranoia and a huge desire to flee. Mine mainly comes out while driving and occasionally while I am doing my hobby. My therapist believes this really stems from feeling infringed on….but we are doing a whole lot more in this space. I think I had this too before it turned into full-blow PTSD with my daughter's dad. And then the combo of losing our home, everything we owned, 2 years in court, and covid all in a short time span along with a school community and my in-person business, I haven't recovered (trying, though). But can you say more about driving? Do you mean driving your car? Just asking b/c I deal with pretty bad driving anxiety and it's gotten worse with what I mentioned above, and I'm exploring all this in the context of relational trauma (which seems like a stretch, but it's not been in what I'm finding). Soo…driving…this is super touchy. I say I should have been a race car driver because I tend to be a point A to point B driver. I also tend to get really agitated by other drivers…driving too slow, not using a signal…it starts off very benign but sometimes there is an “encounter” with another driver and my flee response goes into high gear. Still working on that one. |
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Post by seeking on May 15, 2023 17:19:26 GMT
Soo…driving…this is super touchy. I say I should have been a race car driver because I tend to be a point A to point B driver. I also tend to get really agitated by other drivers…driving too slow, not using a signal…it starts off very benign but sometimes there is an “encounter” with another driver and my flee response goes into high gear. Still working on that one. I've been observing how much overlay there is with relational PTSD and driving anxiety (and separation anxiety). It's wild. I would say for me, the driving "anxiety" is actually better defined as agoraphobia. I don't have issues leaving the house etc but I do if I feel trapped in a car. The definition I found most helpful is "Agoraphobia is an anxiety disorder that causes an intense fear of becoming overwhelmed or unable to escape or get help." Which doesn't exactly fly with my FA tendencies (feels more AP). But that's essentially what I'm working on. Boundary work has been hugely helpful with the driving thing. |
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Post by mrob on May 15, 2023 23:19:31 GMT
What makes FA so difficult is its frustrating inconsistency. It can present in both anxious and avoidant forms, depending on the situation.
I have presented all across the spectrum at sometime or another over the years, even since being here. I’m just grateful I can see it now. Most of the time, lol.
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Post by seeking on May 16, 2023 1:57:47 GMT
Insecures can feel dysregulated by secures (or otherwise benign people who aren't causing drama). Not because the secures are doing anything to cause it, but because the insecures are used to dealing with chaos and bad communication, and not having it feels unfamiliar and foreign and you don't know how to react. Sometimes, it leaves too much quiet and unaware insecures can't sit with themselves or deal with themselves so they want a partner to cause chaos to distract them. Sometimes it makes them feel too messy in comparison to someone who is more together (you've described that before), and sometimes the insecure can't handle someone not causing drama because it feels too good to be true and the insecure nervous system can't stop scanning for threats. Which means the insecure will never trust them. So there's lots of reasons a potentially "benign" person can cause that reaction without it being one bit about that person. That's just examples I can think of off the top of my head. This makes sense. I've actually felt really good in the situations I've been in with regulated more secure people recently, although I can feel like there's a bit of a "divide" and a bit suffocated --- I think there's something around "getting to be myself" and having to sort of "exile" parts of myself to be around certain people. I would say the people I spend the most time with are stable, but generally insecure-attached, and that feels most like home. (The ones that have been more toxic/dramatic are no longer or on their way out). I definitely know that I no longer want a partner to cause chaos. But someone who has worked through some things, yes. I think that's the person I feel most drawn to and who I always hoped/imagine I would meet - someone doing their work, who has some depth b/c they've been through some things and can appreciate hard-won solid connection. I feel like that's not a "type" as much as an "I'll know it when I find it" sort of thing. I would definitely value and appreciate that in another person and feel like I can feel valued and seen and appreciated because of how hard I've worked to get where I am - and keep doing that work with someone. |
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Post by seeking on May 16, 2023 2:00:05 GMT
What makes FA so difficult is its frustrating inconsistency. It can present in both anxious and avoidant forms, depending on the situation. I have presented all across the spectrum at sometime or another over the years, even since being here. I’m just grateful I can see it now. Most of the time, lol. Ah, okay, it's been frustrating for me to figure myself out! Not that I am hanging on to a label, but I feel like a label can at least give me a place on a map and a starting point of understanding. I have thrown myself at people before - clung on, etc. And that felt so AP and so familiar that I'm really still pretty surprised about identifying as FA. But it's starting to make A LOT more sense since the people I was AP with were super unavailable. So I feel like that's primarily FA - to end up with super unavailable people. |
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Post by mrob on May 16, 2023 6:49:02 GMT
That’s right. Unavailable can be AP, DA or FA, whichever way they’re presenting on the day. An insecurely attached person is in some way emotionally unavailable. The label is INCREDIBLY useful.
Check out my first post here years ago. It goes through the whole thing from go to woe. Since then it’s been one hell of a ride as well, as I’ve got to know myself through trial and error. The single most important thing for me has been being here, on this board, without a doubt.
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Post by seeking on May 18, 2023 17:41:21 GMT
Here's the recent realization (please try not to come down too hard on me -- I am just observing and aware and not saying I will continue to do this but awareness helps "unlock" things for me).
I feel basically completely unsupported by men in my life and have for decades. My father, my ex.... who is still in my life due to our daughter's age.... he's pretty much now abandoning her, sadly. It's like they can barely support me/us and I have had to be there for them. It's so unbearably intolerable.
So when a guy comes along and seems sort of independent - hey, I'm flying around the country meeting all these other women -- *Even if we haven't met yet* -- it feels like a huge turnoff. I know it is irrational. I'm not saying it's in any way okay... but I recognized this past week that there is a part of me that simply shuts down and says "no more."
I don't know if it's really wanting a rescuer or it's just wanting someone to show up for me in a big way, but I bet this perpetuates the FA in me. I'd rather nothing than to stand by and watch someone not really be able to fully be there and give support (my sense of his grocery bills being $12, his house being paid off, his freedom after a long marriage - flying around meeting all these other women) - my FA part is like No Thanks. Why would you want to come in and be a support to me in my world (I would do the same back)....
So that's been interesting to observe.
Wondering, then, what does one do with such a gaping "father wound" - a part that is starving for a man to come in and be a man? (Sorry if that's triggering to folks). And again, even though I'm writing it this way, it doesn't mean my expectation is that I sit back and do nothing and don't peddle my own weight. Just that the reality is - and I'm acknowledging it - it's there. Father-hunger or whatever name you want to call it. Male energy. Support. I've lived without it for what feels like an eternity (maybe never have it). I'm not making myself wrong for wanting it. Just wondering what to do about it.
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Post by alexandra on May 18, 2023 18:47:42 GMT
Just wondering. Why does a man need to fill that role? Why isn't it enough that you are independent enough and grounded enough to support yourself? You can seek out a man's company for connection and companionship, there's nothing wrong with that, but why must he also be a support in all these ways that you're seeking before you even get to know each other? That was what mrob was touching on, too. There's still a lack within you and you're projecting that out to the idea that a male figure would make you feel better. But to attract that male figure in the first place, you have to not need and expect it. You have to be okay with who you are, too, and there's still a hole in that sense. The way you write is you're independent because you have to be to survive, but you're going through the motions and being scared rather than being confident that you get to make your own choices in life. One of those choices is having boundaries with how much you support your unsupportive dad and ex btw, and you do not have to support them if they are not supporting you. I know you want to do just enough to facilitate your daughter having access to your ex because he's her dad, but you really don't need to be doing anything else for them. I think that's all just something else to think about when you're assessing the gap you feel and desire for a man to just stroll in to fill this role instead of he should be earning the privilege over time to have that role in your life while you feel okay about yourself regardless. That since you're okay, you can want a relationship like that with a man, but you're not approaching it from a place of need. The need is fear based and insecurity based and is what will attract you to the wrong men and more of the same. |
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Post by mrob on May 18, 2023 23:28:36 GMT
Interesting that you’ve circled back to this. My response before was disproportionate because yes, triggered lots, and I am sorry. I’ll try to be more considerate and measured.
I’d say the response to his “freedom” is shrouded envy, and a lot to do with attachment.
Some background. When I was a little kid, I was grossly aware that men were bastards for not showing up. My mum would have the girls around, drinking coffee and complaining about men. I tried to be different. Tried to be traditional and had absolutely no idea. I wasn’t brought up to work together. I had to make it up as I went along. I ended up taking the first hostage that showed any interest in me and that I thought would show me the way, too. Ended up drinking myself into AA trying to be a “man” with all its awful stoicness, all with that tape going through my head. That took a lot of undoing. Meanwhile, the men around me were disasters as well with nasty divorces and losing everything, it made me question whether it was all worth it.
To present in your life and show up for you in the way you want is a very big risk for a man. What are you bringing? What are you prepared to sacrifice? You’ve opted out of the traditional structures choosing to homeschool, building your own community etc. Would you be truly happy in a traditional subjugated position?
As I write this, one reason think why it’s so triggering is that I’m in the same position. I’ll never put myself in a position where someone has it over me again, but sacrifice is necessary to be in a relationship. Ouch.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2023 23:54:52 GMT
For me, getting past my childhood wounding involved a process of reconciling with my past, from childhood to awkward adolescence through fucked up young adulthood and all the way through to my most recent insecure experiences, down to the last relationshit I was in before I met my partner.
I was very wounded indeed, as all of us with insecure attachment are. I was bitter. Fearful, untrusting, closed off and avoidant for sure. Living a perpetual wound which thrived in my lack of maturity, honestly. Insecurity meant a failure to develop, and at some point I had to take that on. Myself.
I took the time to deeply contemplate the situation of my own parents' upbringing. As bad as I think I had it, they had it worse, with far less support, fewer resources, way less awareness. Talk about compounded trauma, they had it. So their shortcomings with me began to look less like perpetrator/victim scenarios with me as the child victim and more like tragic family stories in which everybody was hurting and doing the best they can. My compassion grew over time with this perspective, and so did my gratitude and personal empowerment. I became able to forgive, to let everyone off the hook of accountability to little me.
At the same time, I discovered grace for myself, as the product of pain. My birth is owed to insecure dynamics between my father and my mother! Not the secure, loving, capable home everyone wishes we had. No, quite the contrary. I was born to two people who desperately tried and failed to outrun their own trauma.
So where does that leave me? It leaves me as the creator of my life going forward, as an adult, free from the narrative of the abandoned and neglected child. The death of my mother was profound in many ways, and not least because I realized that the woman I blamed for all my pain is now gone... just like that. I had the choice to remain bitter or to forgive, and move on in a direction she never was able to find. Recovery and real healing.
This was a maturing process that didn't happen until my 40's. I'd feel ashamed of that but for the fact that this truly is a lifelong process, we don't "arrive." I believe that to be the truth as I witness all people of all ages struggling with this demon or that. The whole of a human life span is a journey, cheesy as it may sound.
The result of this process is that I dropped the chip on my shoulder, and allowed the wound that left me empty inside to heal. I can't say exactly what happened to make it so, other than I had gotten so low in the pain and hopelessness I became willing to see things other than how I had always seen them... through the lens of a wounded child. I love that little girl, don't get me wrong! But she doesn't run the show and tell me how everything is anymore. I didn't shut her up I soothed her with adult guidance that I learned through all the healing work.
I learned that I'm not so special! I'm not unique. Everyone I encounter is facing the same kinds of dilemmas... if not in insecurity, then financially, or with health... everyone struggles. No one has to bear the burden or face the consequences of my unhealed pain. I did that long enough.
life doesn't have to prove itself to me any more, because I recognize my power to create, to choose, to bounce back from disappointment, to be thankful that things aren't worse (beause they could be, for any one of us).
That's my experience, it may not match any one else's. Forgiveness changed my whole life and all my relationships.
Not that my anger was never justified! But I needed something more in order to fully mature.
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