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Post by alpenglow on Feb 7, 2018 20:27:53 GMT
Yes curious - me too - doesn't seem to be a huge ask does it? This thread which focuses on being contented in ourselves seems pretty important as without that surely all attempts and being contented companions in a relationship are surely doomed. Rationally, I think this is true... Which would answer my original question: trying to be in a relationship when you are not contented in yourself ("self-love") is probably a doomed endeavour. At the time same time, I don't quite see how to evolve all on your own, doing mindfulness all alone for years until you reach a point where you love yourself. It doesn't seem realistic either.
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Post by alpenglow on Feb 7, 2018 20:29:30 GMT
I suspect that behind Avoidants lurks a Pessimist. Well, APs are very pessimist as well, hehe. "I'm not good enough, I'll never be loved, I'll never manage anything in life, I'm doomed".
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 15:12:09 GMT
I've been single for four years now, and I am stuggling big time with this question. This has almost turned into a philosophical dilemma.
For the past year or so, I've been testing the waters by dating again. Very recently, I met someone who seemed like a compatible woman, we had exceptional communication, good flow, felt comfortable with each other, had some common interests, physical attraction was mutual etc... After sleeping together, my confidence dropped and my anxiety came back big time. Fear of abandonment. What if I was going to lose her? And this is what happened....without doing anything conscious, she was able to pick up on my insecurity, my "neediness" and "clinginess", my people-pleasing ways. Things ended a week later when she felt that her attraction for me dropped tremendously. I decided that it was best to move on and had a very good talk with her about the whole thing. I actually made her take the attachment test and she turned out to be a secure (although slightly avoidant and quite anxious herself). She told me that my own result didn't surprise her and that she felt how I went from a confident man when she first met me to the insecure "child". She could have fallen in love with the "child" inside me, but not be sexually attracted to the same child. For that, she needed the adult and confident me. She obviously knew herself quite a lot about "inner child" stuff and said to me that the love I didn't receive as a child was lost forever, that I couldn't find/expect a girlfriend to fill up the hole inside me. This all makes a lot of sense and I agree with it. I have myself known about this for a long time now. But my insecurity seems to be as strong as ever. Over the past few years, I have only gotten better at managing "protest behaviour" and rejection better.
What hurts is that my anxiety was so obvious to her, despite talking minimally about it during the dating phase. I have low self-esteem/worth, but after this episode, it's taken another hit. I feel that I am denied love, because of my perceived flaws. I can understand on a rational level that I don't have "flaws" and that I should love myself to become "whole", but it still feels like a punishment. No love as a child, and no love as an adult because of that lack of love in childhood.
So now I am at the point where I wonder if I should give up dating altogether and focus exclusively on working on myself. But for how long? After four years single, I am still at the same point. Sould I keep trying, and stay single/alone until I die? There are many interesting articles about the subject if one googles it.I believe you can't work on having relationships unless you are having relationships. Each relationship has taught me something I would have never learned on my own. It may be one person or several people that help you in your journey to awareness. If you want a relationship, why not keep trying. Everyone has flaws.
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Post by alpenglow on Feb 8, 2018 19:00:01 GMT
You're not AP, Mary, right? FA I believe? Maybe this is different, I don't know. APs have a tendency to be in a relationship in order to fill the void inside themselves and tend to mix up attachment and love. APs probably don't know what real love is, because all they want is for someone to soothe them, reassurance them of their worth, and fix/heal them. We end up using our partners instead of loving them. This is how I have functioned (and still do, by looking at my last dating experience) at least. This is precisely what makes me doubt the rationality behind dating/being in a relationship as long as I don't have sufficient self-worth. On the other hand, your argument does also make sense. We do learn/evolve a lot in a relationship as well.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 19:51:02 GMT
You're not AP, Mary, right? FA I believe? Maybe this is different, I don't know. APs have a tendency to be in a relationship in order to fill the void inside themselves and tend to mix up attachment and love. APs probably don't know what real love is, because all they want is for someone to soothe them, reassurance them of their worth, and fix/heal them. We end up using our partners instead of loving them. This is how I have functioned (and still do, by looking at my last dating experience) at least. This is precisely what makes me doubt the rationality behind dating/being in a relationship as long as I don't have sufficient self-worth. On the other hand, your argument does also make sense. We do learn/evolve a lot in a relationship as well. I am the shallowest of the pools (DA) and you are right, I don't understand the constant need for reassurance, but I wonder if it can work for both sides. I need space and have been in relationships that weren't conducive to space, so I did learn that I need a partner that can give me that. My last partner was very good about giving me the space I needed and it gave me a more positive view of relationships. (I am a person who thought I didn't need relationships, typical DA). Without these experiences, I don't think I would have evolved much. I wonder if an AP found a partner that gave you more of what you need (reassurance, stability), can that grow into feeling loved enough to grow the confidence inside and therefore needing less? I understand your point of view. From my own logical view point, I wonder if a person that relies heavily on others for reassurance can grow alone as much as they could grow with outside positive reinforcement. I mean, we all became insecure from outside negative reinforcement.
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Post by alpenglow on Feb 8, 2018 20:05:53 GMT
I understand where you come from! These experiences of yours did make you evolve. Probably because you were with someone (secure I imagine?) who was able to give you more of what you needed: space. So it would only make sense that it could also work the other way around: for an AP to find a secure who is able to give enough reassurance and stability. This is what the authors of the book "Attached" recommend. I was with a secure partner for 7 years but her reassurance didn't really work on me. Well, it did help when it came to reassurance, but it didn't heal me deep down, as I still need to be reassured today, as a single. Of course, the secures are not one homogeneous group. Some are more able than others (my ex was pretty patient though).
Your argument regarding outside positive/negative reinforcement makes sense. Interesting take! There is one thing that is different between avoidants and anxious though: avoidants need to work towards the relationship, towards the other, while APs need to work inwards, on themselves. So APs might have less to gain from being in a relationship when it comes to growing and healing. Unless this work on themselves might be further enhanced by being in a relationship (your idea of outside positive reinforcement).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 22:00:42 GMT
I understand where you come from! These experiences of yours did make you evolve. Probably because you were with someone (secure I imagine?) who was able to give you more of what you needed: space. So it would only make sense that it could also work the other way around: for an AP to find a secure who is able to give enough reassurance and stability. This is what the authors of the book "Attached" recommend. I was with a secure partner for 7 years but her reassurance didn't really work on me. Well, it did help when it came to reassurance, but it didn't heal me deep down, as I still need to be reassured today, as a single. Of course, the secures are not one homogeneous group. Some are more able than others (my ex was pretty patient though). Your argument regarding outside positive/negative reinforcement makes sense. Interesting take! There is one thing that is different between avoidants and anxious though: avoidants need to work towards the relationship, towards the other, while APs need to work inwards, on themselves. So APs might have less to gain from being in a relationship when it comes to growing and healing. Unless this work on themselves might be further enhanced by being in a relationship (your idea of outside positive reinforcement). Yes, I see your quandry. Your goal is to become more self sufficient. With the absence of the triggers, it's difficult to work on yet a relationship may do nothing to heal your inside. I do believe though it's possible to have a happy relationship as an AP with the right partner. I have a friend who is AP and I believe her husband is secure. She has learned over time to give him space and he definitely loves her. She still has episodes, but she's very happy and they have been married over 20 years. I brought it up to my therapist that I don't necessarily want to give up my avoidance entirely or that I might not be able to change it and is it possible to have a happy relationship with a person that would accept that part of me. She said I may not have true deep intimacy, but both partners could definitely be happy this way. I think I have come to terms with, yes, I want to grow and I will continue to, but that happiness with a partner is my real goal. It's complicated stuff!
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Post by alpenglow on Feb 22, 2018 12:28:51 GMT
I see that I hadn't answered your last post, @mary. Good to hear about your AP friend thriving in her her relationship with a secure. What comes first? Work with the self, or relationship. Ideally, both at the same time. I had a long round with my therapist this morning about this, but I'm still frustrated, I am far from having resolved this question. It is very closely linked to self love as a requirement for entering a relationship. I'm stuck with that thought and this logical trap. When I read articles about this subject, I get the impression that most people see self love as the absolute condition before giving a relationship a chance. Since I lack self love, I don't see myself qualified for being in a relationship. This thought reinforces my belief that I am flawed and unlovable. No self love --> no chance to love and be loved in a relationship. I equate not being loved by someone in a romantic relationship as proof that I am unlovable.
Luckily, my therapist doesn't look at this as black and white. She stated that many people with low self esteem are actually in relationships and are lovable. And that there is no study that shows that lack of self love means that people are unlovable. She conceded that people with low self esteem do indeed have extra difficulties in relationships. But that it is not linked to the concept of being unlovable.
A reason why I don't feel lovable is because I haven't quite seen enough opposing evidence yet, that can convince me that I am lovable. A series of rejections is to blame. We could also differentiate between platonic love and romantic love. I am more easily convinced that I am loved by my friends, than by partners or potential partners. Why this difference?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 12:54:42 GMT
alpenglow, what does being lovable look like to you? what kind of evidence do you need to convince yourself that you are lovable?
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Post by alpenglow on Feb 22, 2018 13:23:39 GMT
You Will not get triggered the same way with friends. In a relationship you become dependent on your partner and it reminds you of the relationship with your parents or other caregivers. Maybe you are pushing love away and thats why you dont know. I hope you are feeling better. That might be the difference indeed. The only way I see that I can push love away is what happened last time with that date. She could feel that I seemed to be surprised to receive love and that it felt like I couldn't really believe it that someone would be that interested in me. Which is true. But I didn't say or resort to any behaviour that pushed love away. If anything, I wanted more of it.
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Post by alpenglow on Feb 22, 2018 13:33:42 GMT
alpenglow, what does being lovable look like to you? what kind of evidence do you need to convince yourself that you are lovable? I'm not actually sure. The evidence I seek is someone falling in love with me I guess? In other areas where I also feel deficient, for example work or school, some external evidence helped to convince me that I can't be possibly be "stupid". Good grades for examples. Even though I still downplay my "success", this inner core belief has become slightly less powerful over time. But the "not lovable" core belief is not as easy to refute, because one does not encounter situations where one can be disproved as often. For example, in the course of your life, you might be evaluated in an exam or work situation more often than meeting people who might potentially fall in love with you. This is at least the reality of my life. Ideally, one shouldn't need external evidence to prove or refute one's own worth. But I don't know of any other way to validate myself and change my thought patterns. I know that external validation is central among APs.
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Post by alpenglow on Feb 22, 2018 13:35:21 GMT
What about your ex girlfriend ? Have you asked her if she loved you ? You know what, that's what I've been willing to ask lately. We broke up 4 years ago and still have limited contact with each other. I am tempted to ask her.
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Post by alpenglow on Feb 22, 2018 15:29:30 GMT
Found this interesting comment somewhere online, which combines self-love and learning acceptance from others (in a loving relationship):
"So then the question is "is someone out there willing to accept me?" I think the statistically accurate answer is "probably." But I think the ability for a person to accept love, to accept acceptance, and to *feel loved*relies a lot of the one's ability to practice self-love. That's just a fancy way of saying RuPaul's famous "If you can't love yourself, how the hell you gonna love someone else?" If you can't accept your own flaws, how can you accept the flaws of another person or believe it when a person tells you those flaws are okay to have? I think not being able to practice self-love prevents a person from receiving love completely, thus leading to the false belief that they are "unlovable."
That mentioned, I do not think that being unable to accept oneself, and thus being unable to "accept" love, makes someone inherently unlovable. The love that I describe is a huge process that takes lots of time to master. It is learnable, given that you have something to learn from. I say that because a lot of love gurus out there recommend that people stay away from matters of love if depressed, if feeling low, etc. "Look inside, do things you love, forget about finding someone to like. Then your self-esteem will improve" they say.
But to be honest, I never learned much about self-acceptance or self-love when I "looked inside" because I had so heavily internalized negative messages around me. Now, this comes from my experiences as a black woman, as someone who has been told via individuals and institutions that I should not accept myself, and as someone who had not seen a lot of examples of black self-love growing up. So when I "looked inside" for validation, I relied a lot on denial and the racist narratives I already knew to "love" myself. I'd retreat into my hobbies and use them to compensate for my feelings of inherent unlovableness. I'd think things like "at least I'm good at xyz" without resolving my self hate.
I think for those who are told over and over that they are not worthy of love, external support and love is absolutely key to guiding a person back to self-love. Seeking out and leaning on a community of people who love you can help you learn self-acceptance when such things were never modeled for you. That is to say, seeking out love when you feel unloved is okay, with caveats.
Caveats: I think people sometimes conflate what I'm saying with the concept of codependence or emotional neediness, which is understandable. Sometimes people don't just lean on a loving community; they depend on that community completely for self-worth. That's very different from looking to a person to learn about acceptance, and I do not think that such things are healthy.
tl;dr: I think everyone is capable of being loved(being accepted). I think that it's really hard to receive (thus feel) and reciprocate love when you don't have models of acceptance. I think it is okay to seek out love when you have not achieved perfect acceptance, given that you do not become codependent on those who love you"
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Post by cricket on Feb 22, 2018 19:10:03 GMT
I've read a lot of your posts and it sounds like you deal w chronic depression. You sound a lot like my ex. He was a major commitment phobe tho, but has chronic depression. I think at this time soley focusing on you would serve best. Especially when u know you use relationships as a bandaid to feel better. That's what my ex does and we remained friends for 2 yrs after so I see him dating like crazy and going thru ups and downs and he knows he wants to find love but has no idea how to because he has no idea what loving himself is. After we broke up I told him You never really loved me , you only loved how much I loved you. I saw him doing that w a girl after me and that kind of made him more aware of it. I was so good at filling his ego and adoring him no matter what for 5 years. But once that high wore off and his depression set in full force our relationship crumbled. He's never going to be able to sustain happiness with someone until he feels truly whole and worthy and loved by himself. He is a beautiful person and successful in my eyes but still to this day he texts me out of the blue telling me how miserable he is. If I am way off about you then I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend you just trying to help.
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Post by alpenglow on Feb 22, 2018 19:40:07 GMT
I've read a lot of your posts and it sounds like you deal w chronic depression. You sound a lot like my ex. He was a major commitment phobe tho, but has chronic depression. I think at this time soley focusing on you would serve best. Especially when u know you use relationships as a bandaid to feel better. That's what my ex does and we remained friends for 2 yrs after so I see him dating like crazy and going thru ups and downs and he knows he wants to find love but has no idea how to because he has no idea what loving himself is. After we broke up I told him You never really loved me , you only loved how much I loved you. I saw him doing that w a girl after me and that kind of made him more aware of it. I was so good at filling his ego and adoring him no matter what for 5 years. But once that high wore off and his depression set in full force our relationship crumbled. He's never going to be able to sustain happiness with someone until he feels truly whole and worthy and loved by himself. He is a beautiful person and successful in my eyes but still to this day he texts me out of the blue telling me how miserable he is. If I am way off about you then I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend you just trying to help. You are not way off at all, I recognize myself very well in what you wrote. I do deal with chronic depression since childhood. It goes up and down of course. Now is a bad period. The only difference is that I am not a commitment phobe (being AP, this would be difficult). I do indeed use relationships as a bandaid to feel better. This is what I did with my ex for 7 years, and ended up wearing her out. I felt the same about her as your ex felt about you, that I only loved how much she loved me. But even that I doubt, I couldn't really feel her love either, mostly her deep and heartfelt caring. I did care a lot about her as well, it wasn't ALL bad. To my credit, I was aware of the effect it had on her, and we broke up on a mutual agreement, no drama. Now you understand why I keep asking whether it is a good idea to date or not, whether I am fit for it or not. I've been single for 4 years, completely avoided dating for 3 years, and decided to give a try again about a year ago as I felt better with myself. Some people (like you) mean that it's best to experience strong self love first. Some are less categorical, including my therapist. Well, she sure doesn't think it's a good idea to date while depressed (and I can see that as well!), but doesn't quite see the problem dating even with low self esteem/self love. I see that the whole dating experience only makes me feel more depressed every time I am rejected, so I will probably take a break now. Besides the pain it generates, I still find it interesting and learn a few things along the way. The only thing that hurts is that this vision confirms my inner core beliefs that I am unlovable and defective. I can see how he'd text you to tell you how miserable he feels. I'm glad I kept this to a very minimum with my ex, the first year after the breakup, while we were still good friends.
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