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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2018 16:49:31 GMT
There definitely is validation, support, learning, understanding, hope and friendship on this forum. By nature, people need other people. It has been proven that people that live in total isolation develop mental instability, so one cannot do it completely alone. I think that external factors and internal factors both contribute to self love, however I see it all as a circular process rather than cause/consequence. Self acceptance and pushing against fears are definitely part of the process. More of a circular process perhaps, yes, as a sort of self-reinforcing feedback loop. A minimum of self-love prompts us to wish change in our lives, mostly because we want to suffer less and experience happiness more often. Seeking out information and doing introspection work is the first step. But at some point, some external help/validation/love is needed, especially for people like us who received such a deficient love template from our parents. This deficiency prevented self-validation to develop naturally, so it needs to come later. How can it be possible to create that template on your own, without some sort of external love and validation? Aren't people you meet later in life and appreciate/love you for what you are a way to develop that sense of love in yourself, by providing a much needed example? Now when it comes to romantic relationships, what is the fundamental difference between a friendship and a romantic relationship? The "love yourself first" advocates are against entering a romantic relationship as long as one still needs external validation. They don't say much about friendships, which are a source of love and validation. Friends usually don't reject us because of our lack of perceived self-love. Good partners are fundamentally good friends, plus something else. So why can we not expect partners to provide us with some validation and passive guidance through their love alone? Is the difference only a matter of degree? It can't be a question of reliance, because if anything, most people rely more on their friends than on their partners (averaged over your lifetime). Or is this because romantic relationships are a lot more about conditional love? Friends usually don't reject us because of a lack of confidence/self-esteem in ourselves. Yes, external help is needed along with some self sufficiency. It's the balance of the 2 that can go off kilter and cause problems. I don't believe you can do it alone, which is why I said before that being in a relationship would help rather than going it alone. You can expect a partner to be a source of validation and guidance, but not the only source and you have to be able to receive the validation and guidance. Some APs want to receive and receive the validation, but still go on with their own biased internal thinking. That cant work. All relationships are conditional, even friends. Friendships are less volatile, because they are not relied on as heavily as romantic partners. They are a "watered down " version. As I see it, some potential friends would reject a person because of low confidence and some potential romantic partners will not reject you because of low confidence. There is no absolute. I may not be the best person to speak about this though because I am not an advocate of love yourself first before entering relationships. I see the point, but I do believe relationships are an important part of the cycle. Even if they fail, you can learn about yourself, about other people, yours and others needs, wants and so many other things. The internal work that needs to be done is one needs to be able to receive and give the validation, love, support, etc from both friends and romantic partners. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2018 17:02:08 GMT
romantic relationships seem to mirror our parental relationships more than relationships of other kinds.
for the most part.
no hard and fast rules there.
if your sense of self and security was damaged by your parental experience, you are likely to repeat painful patterns that drive you to find healing, or you just repeat painful patterns ad infinitum.
i say, date where you're at. no man is truly an island.
if you need to grow you'll find out, often painfully.
it's a learn as you go deal.
it's all part of a process of individuation and self discovery and you experience that in the game, not on the sidelines.
there is a time for being solitary and doing deep work, there is a time for walking out what you've learned and discovering things in a relationship.
i don't think things are black and white.
don't parent until you know how to raise a child?
the logic is not logical.
date where you are, take responsibility for where you are, and commit to learning.
life happens as we live it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2018 17:47:22 GMT
also, the whole process of dating does not only show you what you need and want in a relationship, it will be also helping you see what you have to offer.
relationships, in order to support the growth of both partners, should be reciprocal and the ability to show up as a support, unconditionally, for a person increases as one develops some self sufficiency and self love. it's just a process, the way i see it.
how can we know where we lack if we don't try?
how can we see where we are solid, if we don't try?
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Post by alpenglow on Feb 25, 2018 17:53:40 GMT
Thanks for your answers, @mary and @tgat, it helps validating (ah!) the thinking I have been doing.
And since I do have a tendency to think black and white (it comes with the package), these types of absolute "truths" drive me nuts. So I just spend my time to try and rationally find a way out of these conandrums. Exhausting.
I agree with you Mary that a large part of the work for APs is to actually accept love from others. APs, or at least some of them like me who suffer from the defectiveness lifetrap in Schema Theory (see other thread) want love but are not fully able to accept it either (because it conflicts with their core belief of being unlovable). Working on that acceptance (as well as self-acceptance) would be a very efficient way of healing. This would minimize a lot of pain for both parts in a relationship.
Even friendships must be conditional, yeah, it's just less obvious because as you say, friendships are not relied on as heavily as romantic partners. Perhaps they are more stable over time precisely because there is less daily reliance.
And yes, romantic relationships do seem to mirror our parental relationships. Because they feel familiar and safe (even though in many cases they are not!)
A part of a process of individuation, tgat, absolutely. And this is what some of us didn't learn as a child. So we need to learn it now through relationships, not on the sidelines through self-imposed isolation.
Recently I tried, it didn't work out, it hurt a lot, I need to lick my wounds, learn and grow, and try again another time.
Don't parent until you know how to raise a child is the same kind of flawed logic as don't love until you know how to love. Or don't live until you know how to live.
Life happens as we live it, I like that!
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Post by alpenglow on Feb 25, 2018 17:59:35 GMT
also, the whole process of dating does not only show you what you need and want in a relationship, it will be also helping you see what you have to offer. relationships, in order to support the growth of both partners, should be reciprocal and the ability to show up as a support, unconditionally, for a person increases as one develops some self sufficiency and self love. it's just a process, the way i see it. how can we know where we lack if we don't try? how can we see where we are solid, if we don't try? Good point! My latest experience put at least some light on some of my qualities. This in itself is valuable, because this feedback helps me see the good things I could offer in a relationship. Of course, said qualities might be more or less important depending on the person. It's about finding someone who truly appreciates them. Dating also shows you what you want and need. Right, sometimes you just don't know what you lack or what you are good at until you are in a situation where a certain set of skills is needed. This applies to other areas in life as well. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2018 18:18:28 GMT
also, the whole process of dating does not only show you what you need and want in a relationship, it will be also helping you see what you have to offer. relationships, in order to support the growth of both partners, should be reciprocal and the ability to show up as a support, unconditionally, for a person increases as one develops some self sufficiency and self love. it's just a process, the way i see it. how can we know where we lack if we don't try? how can we see where we are solid, if we don't try? Good point! My latest experience put at least some light on some of my qualities. This in itself is valuable, because this feedback helps me see the good things I could offer in a relationship. Of course, said qualities might be more or less important depending on the person. It's about finding someone who truly appreciates them. Dating also shows you what you want and need. Right, sometimes you just don't know what you lack or what you are good at until you are in a situation where a certain set of skills is needed. This applies to other areas in life as well. yep! so when you're ready, go give it a shot, share it with people you trust for honest feedback and support , and keep growing. dating, while painful, has showed you some GOOD things in yourself. increasing self acceptance, self appreciation- self love. we repeat what we know, so the way dating mirrors our parental experience is more about familiarity than safety. mine was dangerous, i have dated dangerously. in the past. but the whole process helped me grow to where i am and i love myself a bunch. that wasn't true before i started dating. for sure. i learned as i went and it almost killed me but here i am, it's all good.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2018 18:30:29 GMT
here's a good one alpenglow... "don't try swimming until you know how." 😂 yes we get better at things with practice. practice. diligence and practice. |
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Post by alpenglow on Feb 25, 2018 18:42:35 GMT
Right, I'll do that! It's like what was in those articles I shared. Progress is not a linear process, there is a lot of up and down, setbacks hurt, but we can learn something out of them! Yes, I remember your story quite well, you have come a long way! Really impressive, and I can feel that love coming out of you So it's not only in your head, in case you were wondering, haha. |
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Post by alpenglow on Feb 25, 2018 18:44:48 GMT
here's a good one alpenglow ... "don't try swimming until you know how." 😂 yes we get better at things with practice. practice. diligence and practice. Haha, yes, good one! I really don't like all these seemingly simple "truths". They look like common sense, but they actually don't mean much! Except for the funny ones  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2018 19:00:20 GMT
i always discouraged my babies from trying to learn how to walk until i was sure they could do it without falling. kept me busy pushing them down all the time but finally...... no wait. actually i let them crawl around and figure it out, helped them out when they got boo-boos 😍 it's innately human to seek out experience. |
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Post by alpenglow on Feb 25, 2018 19:12:06 GMT
Good example! This is generally how we learn things, trial and error. The only difference is that as a parent, you have a responsibility to make sure your children will be fine and won't hurt themselves too badly. As an adult, we have no such safeguards anymore, we can only try and fall I guess this where that self-love stuff can come in handy! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2018 19:27:39 GMT
Good example! This is generally how we learn things, trial and error. The only difference is that as a parent, you have a responsibility to make sure your children will be fine and won't hurt themselves too badly. As an adult, we have no such safeguards anymore, we can only try and fall I guess this where that self-love stuff can come in handy! and the love and support of people who have no agenda other than to walk it out together comes in handy too, and i am back to feeling so thankful for this forum!! |
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Post by cricket on Feb 25, 2018 20:18:18 GMT
When the damage done in a relationship is too much much, breaking up is often the result. Often for the best when you are not compatible and there is just too much pain inside the relationship. You write that he was emotionally unavailable. Was he DA? I understand that this reminded me of the relationship you had with your dad, especially as he seemed to be avoidant himself (caring from a distance). What is your relation to your dad today? I come with the same background: emotionally and verbally abusive dad, alcoholic, and very distant. If you had had better self-worth, I see that the person leaving would not mean taking away all your happiness...this is what happens when *all* our validation and sense of worth is external. It's best not to have the line of thought "if these people can have a relationship, why not me?". I do the same thing sometimes, and it clearly creates more negative thoughts. Good thing that you managed to let go of this! Fostering happiness with no label is also a way to detach from external validation. What I don't understand is the extreme meaning of self-love. I'm not saying this is not an ideal to aim for, because it clearly reduces a lot of disappointment and pain. I just don't see how it can completely come from our own being. I just googled some stuff on external validation and found the following: "No matter what anyone else says, you know, for example, that you are loving, compassionate, hard working, and smart." Ok, fine. But how do you know that you are a loving person if you don't see people telling you one way or another that you are a loving person? Perhaps not in words, but just by the way they feel happy in your presence when you give them love. A smile, something. Isn't that some sort of external validation? Same goes with being compassionate. How do you know that you are if no one or nothing tells you that you are? Hard working/smart: same thing, you need some sort of scale or standard to judge yourself on whether you are hard working or smart. Compared to who or what? You need some external input in order to know these things. I'm just saying that we don't exist in a vacuum. It's great to lessen external validation as much as possible to lead a happier life, but I just don't think that a strict interpretation of the concept is possible. This is how I feel about self-love and the concept of "loving oneself first". Common advice is "do stuff that you enjoy, spend time with your friends while you work on yourself and look for a romantic relationship". Don't your friends validate you in some way? You wouldn't be friends if they didn't like you in return. This whole self-love things pushes individuality to an extreme level, the way I see it, which is disconnected from the reality that we are, yes, individuals, but that we can't function without interaction, and hence validation, from others. I also wish that I can one day find peace with the fact that I didn't receive the love I deserved as a child! It seems that you have managed to do so? I don't know how I would label my ex hub. He was a functioning alcoholic and very emotionally closed off. With my dad we don't have a relationship now. That was never fostered. I am now ready to forgive that whole situation and feel empathy for him. I don't feel like I need to chase his love thru relationships anymore. So I wasn't meaning we need no one in the world because I know no man is an island. I'm saying your self worth and self love doesn't come from anyone. Yes people are mirrors for us and reflect what we are ultimately feeling about ourselves so we have to create a great loving relationship w ourselves and that will call forth great relationships. It's like how do u know you are desirable if no one desires u or how do u know you're loveable if no one loves u. But I'm sure u are over looking lots of ways you are desired and lots of people that do love u. And if you ever got into meditating you would definitely know what it feels like to have love come from you only. It's unmistakable. There was this girl that was telling her story of how her mom and brother died and she never knew her dad she was truly alone and still looked deep in herself to find love. We are very deep powerful beings. Reality is what you make of it. I hope you are feeling a little better these days.🙂 |
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Post by alpenglow on Feb 25, 2018 21:12:45 GMT
When the damage done in a relationship is too much much, breaking up is often the result. Often for the best when you are not compatible and there is just too much pain inside the relationship. You write that he was emotionally unavailable. Was he DA? I understand that this reminded me of the relationship you had with your dad, especially as he seemed to be avoidant himself (caring from a distance). What is your relation to your dad today? I come with the same background: emotionally and verbally abusive dad, alcoholic, and very distant. If you had had better self-worth, I see that the person leaving would not mean taking away all your happiness...this is what happens when *all* our validation and sense of worth is external. It's best not to have the line of thought "if these people can have a relationship, why not me?". I do the same thing sometimes, and it clearly creates more negative thoughts. Good thing that you managed to let go of this! Fostering happiness with no label is also a way to detach from external validation. What I don't understand is the extreme meaning of self-love. I'm not saying this is not an ideal to aim for, because it clearly reduces a lot of disappointment and pain. I just don't see how it can completely come from our own being. I just googled some stuff on external validation and found the following: "No matter what anyone else says, you know, for example, that you are loving, compassionate, hard working, and smart." Ok, fine. But how do you know that you are a loving person if you don't see people telling you one way or another that you are a loving person? Perhaps not in words, but just by the way they feel happy in your presence when you give them love. A smile, something. Isn't that some sort of external validation? Same goes with being compassionate. How do you know that you are if no one or nothing tells you that you are? Hard working/smart: same thing, you need some sort of scale or standard to judge yourself on whether you are hard working or smart. Compared to who or what? You need some external input in order to know these things. I'm just saying that we don't exist in a vacuum. It's great to lessen external validation as much as possible to lead a happier life, but I just don't think that a strict interpretation of the concept is possible. This is how I feel about self-love and the concept of "loving oneself first". Common advice is "do stuff that you enjoy, spend time with your friends while you work on yourself and look for a romantic relationship". Don't your friends validate you in some way? You wouldn't be friends if they didn't like you in return. This whole self-love things pushes individuality to an extreme level, the way I see it, which is disconnected from the reality that we are, yes, individuals, but that we can't function without interaction, and hence validation, from others. I also wish that I can one day find peace with the fact that I didn't receive the love I deserved as a child! It seems that you have managed to do so? I don't know how I would label my ex hub. He was a functioning alcoholic and very emotionally closed off. With my dad we don't have a relationship now. That was never fostered. I am now ready to forgive that whole situation and feel empathy for him. I don't feel like I need to chase his love thru relationships anymore. So I wasn't meaning we need no one in the world because I know no man is an island. I'm saying your self worth and self love doesn't come from anyone. Yes people are mirrors for us and reflect what we are ultimately feeling about ourselves so we have to create a great loving relationship w ourselves and that will call forth great relationships. It's like how do u know you are desirable if no one desires u or how do u know you're loveable if no one loves u. But I'm sure u are over looking lots of ways you are desired and lots of people that do love u. And if you ever got into meditating you would definitely know what it feels like to have love come from you only. It's unmistakable. There was this girl that was telling her story of how her mom and brother died and she never knew her dad she was truly alone and still looked deep in herself to find love. We are very deep powerful beings. Reality is what you make of it. I hope you are feeling a little better these days.🙂 Sad to hear about your ex husband, this must have been a very difficult relationship. Same with your dad... I'm also working on forgiving my dad (and my mum as well), even though he died a long time ago. You're right, I am probably overlooking the many ways I am actually already loved by people! Because it's hard to to feel completely convinced by it. But still easier with friendships than with romantic partners. I'm lucky to have a few great and supportive friends (even though they don't understand everything). I don't like myself very much, but they do like/love me, so what is reflected really? In the romantic department however, things are quite different! Why is that? Probably because I don't display insecurity within friendships, this only happens in romantic relationships. I think I just answered my own question, hehe. I have probably not gotten far enough with meditation to feel that love coming from myself yet, I only started about 2 months ago. Survival strategies, yes, for sure! And a desire to heal, or else I wouldn't be here for example. These steps probably emanate from a sense of self-love? Self-preservation at the very least. Perhaps this is what this girl in your story felt as well? I am feeling a bit better, thanks |
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