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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 12:55:56 GMT
flic, don't custom tailor your commmunication to influence his reaction. that's covertly emotionally controlling but many people don't see that. and it's based on your guesses as to how he will respond. be honest. whatever that looks like. controlling behavior is fear based and seems protective but its controlling nonetheless and healthy relationships don't employ it.
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flic
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Post by flic on Apr 19, 2018 12:59:03 GMT
Most DA men will not bare all and then throw themselves under the bus for you while you posture and say goodbye. they won't. they won't continue to be vulnerable in the face of rejection. this is a totally different animal than you think. DA men are wholly misunderstood, as are DA women. I totally get this. But i haven't rejected him, not once. His misinterpretation of my fear about moving overseas absolutely, he took as rejection and that's why he dumped me before i could say i was leaving (even though i wasn't going to). That's where a lot of his guilt seems to lie at the moment. Our chat last week was him saying he misses me, and he's sorry. I said i miss him too, so much, and that it's not his fault he was scared. I then followed up when he apologised for putting his pain and loneliness on me, that i was grateful he could be so vulnerable. He hasn't once said he wants me to come back. I get your point - and it makes sense that i pull back from saying my intention in going over is to 'say goodbye' and ask him whether i can come and we can just see each other. But I'm also working off where he seems to be at. I totally think DA men and women are misunderstood - Im struggling so much to understand how to interact with him in a way that makes him feel safe! He often seems scared off by too much vulnerability, but potentially shuts down with too little? Not being facetious - im just so confused!
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flic
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Post by flic on Apr 19, 2018 13:08:30 GMT
juniper I guess what I mean is, sometimes when i'm really honest and vulnerable, he seems to pull away. When initiates the vulnerability, he seems fine with it. So when he was the one to break down on the phone, it was fine for me to also break down and we had a really honest chat about how we were feeling. But when i send him messages about the fact i will always be there for him, that it's hard to hear how much he is hurting - he seems to pull away slightly, and get a little defensive. Even the fact he hasn't replied to my message checking in and seeing how he's doing, that im thinking of him, seems like him pulling away. So then i think - oh shit, i am being too needy, and i need to pull back. Does that make sense?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 13:33:14 GMT
it does make sense, in terms of the confusion you are feeling. i can address specifics later if we need to.
as an exercise in simplicity tho, just between us without thought to his internal processes, i want to ask you to do something. just as our exercise.
Tell me in six sentences or less exactly what you think and feel about this situation. Six or less. include your hope, fear, feelings about him, feelings about your recovery as AP, all of it. just boil it down. do NOT include speculation about him.
it will be challenging but this is just to get to the nitty gritty of what's truly going on with you and we will take it from there.
by the way, the most detrimental assumption i see is that an AP needs to help their partner be safe. this is not true.
we are not receptive or reliant on external things from other individuals for our internal safety and endeavors to keep us safe feel very different to us than intended. Largely because they are based on misunderstandings and fear based perceptions and cannot come close to what we actually need or desire. i see AP miss the mark over and over again with fear based intentions and don't have time to address it all.
back to the exercise. six sentences to express your whole truth. Go. ππ
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flic
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Post by flic on Apr 19, 2018 13:47:51 GMT
juniper oh gosh now i think i've done all the things wrong in my texts to him in the last week! Maybe the conversation on Friday WAS my chance to say "and does this change things for you?" ie if he misses me and can see that we broke up because of misunderstanding and fear, does he think we can start again. But i didn't say it. What if that was my only chance? Then i've just sent him a bunch of texts that don't say i want to come back, just bang on about the future and practicalities. Ok, 6 sentences, i like this. I love him, for everything he is and everything he wants to do in the world I hope to have him in my life, and to be in his life. But if im honest, i want to be with him, as his partner, in the city he is in. I'm fearful that the break-up has broken our connection and we won't be able to recover it (or build a new one) I want to be able to be secure enough in myself that i come from a place of love and not fear in all my relationships, so that i show up authentically I want to be able to operate from a higher place of love, so that i don't feel desperately attached to him, i can just love him whether he is with me or not ps - i have to get some sleep now (it's nighttime where i am!) but i really appreciate you going through this exercise with me, will check back in morning
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 14:05:57 GMT
juniper oh gosh now i think i've done all the things wrong in my texts to him in the last week! Maybe the conversation on Friday WAS my chance to say "and does this change things for you?" ie if he misses me and can see that we broke up because of misunderstanding and fear, does he think we can start again. But i didn't say it. What if that was my only chance? Then i've just sent him a bunch of texts that don't say i want to come back, just bang on about the future and practicalities. Ok, 6 sentences, i like this. I love him, for everything he is and everything he wants to do in the world I hope to have him in my life, and to be in his life. But if im honest, i want to be with him, as his partner, in the city he is in. I'm fearful that the break-up has broken our connection and we won't be able to recover it (or build a new one) I want to be able to be secure enough in myself that i come from a place of love and not fear in all my relationships, so that i show up authentically I want to be able to operate from a higher place of love, so that i don't feel desperately attached to him, i can just love him whether he is with me or not ps - i have to get some sleep now (it's nighttime where i am!) but i really appreciate you going through this exercise with me, will check back in morningΒ this is great. go rest, eat well, and maybe do something very nurturing for yourself. we will continue when you are fresh. i enjoy this because it reinforces what i do with my DA partner .i love him too.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 14:08:11 GMT
and relax. you didn't lose any chance to express.
you have an opportunity at ANY TIME to express, it comes when you recognize that you need a new approach. you don't run out of chances until someone is dead or done. until then, do what you want. it's your life and you get as many chances as you give yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 14:43:54 GMT
I think the indecision regarding breakups, what to do and what not to do are a product of not trusting yourself and fear of not having enough information to make the decision. Hope is sometimes the flip side of not trusting yourself to make the right decision for yourself. What if this person can change, what if this person can be who I need, what if I didn't give this person enough chances. The decision in what to do relies in trusting your own decision process and knowing you have enough information to make the decision.
If you feel you don't have enough information, then get the information necessary to make the decision.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 14:59:46 GMT
i agree with @mary. also, most AP posters are making assumptions based on their own dysfunction. they don't believe what the DA partner is saying, even if it's point blank. they don't think the DA is being authentic. Why? partly because they are not being authentic and they are projecting. they are not honest and do not trust either. change has to start somewhere and it can only begin in the self. it's a risk but people are obliterating hope by hiding behind false notions. and they get a TON of support for that from other AP's. let's stop shutting down the honest DA perspective lol. Disemploy the Hall Monitor here who corrects too much logic of plain spoken perspective. π¬π
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 19, 2018 15:15:01 GMT
it does make sense, in terms of the confusion you are feeling. i can address specifics later if we need to. as an exercise in simplicity tho, just between us without thought to his internal processes, i want to ask you to do something. just as our exercise. Tell me in six sentences or less exactly what you think and feel about this situation. Six or less. include your hope, fear, feelings about him, feelings about your recovery as AP, all of it. just boil it down. do NOT include speculation about him. it will be challenging but this is just to get to the nitty gritty of what's truly going on with you and we will take it from there. by the way, the most detrimental assumption i see is that an AP needs to help their partner be safe. this is not true. we are not receptive or reliant on external things from other individuals for our internal safety and endeavors to keep us safe feel very different to us than intended. Largely because they are based on misunderstandings and fear based perceptions and cannot come close to what we actually need or desire. i see AP miss the mark over and over again with fear based intentions and don't have time to address it all. back to the exercise. six sentences to express your whole truth. Go. ππ So here is the thing Juniper...it may be a lightbulb moment......APs fear abandonment....abandonment fears trigger a lack of safety. We don't offer safety to our partners out of some misguided thought that we can protect our partner...we try to offer safety because that is what we as APs need. We all tend to give what we most want...the issue is that we also don't 1. Consider that we are doing this and thus speak clearly to that need and 2. Because we give what we want to get and vice versa...we create a vast hole where neither person is getting what he/she truly needs since so much is unspoken but reacted upon. We judge what our partner gives us through the lens of our own brokenness...not from the perspective of curiosity. I often said I wanted a handbook for B...not so I could take advantage of what I learned (as I suspect was his fear) but so that I would be able to see things from his perspective correctly and not just through my own AP lens. It is very hard to get to know someone who has been overwhelmed, not accepted and expected to be a certain way from a caregiver who only thought of him/herself. So many barriers to truly getting to know that person, so much suspicion about motives....and all I wanted to do was be the best partner I could be....but I had no map to follow and that stunk.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 15:18:15 GMT
Most DA men will not bare all and then throw themselves under the bus for you while you posture and say goodbye. they won't. they won't continue to be vulnerable in the face of rejection. this is a totally different animal than you think. DA men are wholly misunderstood, as are DA women. I totally get this. But i haven't rejected him, not once. His misinterpretation of my fear about moving overseas absolutely, he took as rejection and that's why he dumped me before i could say i was leaving (even though i wasn't going to). That's where a lot of his guilt seems to lie at the moment. Our chat last week was him saying he misses me, and he's sorry. I said i miss him too, so much, and that it's not his fault he was scared. I then followed up when he apologised for putting his pain and loneliness on me, that i was grateful he could be so vulnerable. He hasn't once said he wants me to come back. I get your point - and it makes sense that i pull back from saying my intention in going over is to 'say goodbye' and ask him whether i can come and we can just see each other. But I'm also working off where he seems to be at. I totally think DA men and women are misunderstood - Im struggling so much to understand how to interact with him in a way that makes him feel safe! He often seems scared off by too much vulnerability, but potentially shuts down with too little? Not being facetious - im just so confused! Just a note on this comment. My ex said he wanted to meet with me face to face to apologize in person for what he did. I knew his intention was to talk to me about the breakup and find a way to get back together. I told him I wasn't changing my mind, but I would meet with him to talk. He admitted there was no point in talking if my mind was made up. I think it's best to be clear on your intentions, whatever they are. As a DA, I despise when I have to "uncover" the true intention.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 15:19:47 GMT
it does make sense, in terms of the confusion you are feeling. i can address specifics later if we need to. as an exercise in simplicity tho, just between us without thought to his internal processes, i want to ask you to do something. just as our exercise. Tell me in six sentences or less exactly what you think and feel about this situation. Six or less. include your hope, fear, feelings about him, feelings about your recovery as AP, all of it. just boil it down. do NOT include speculation about him. it will be challenging but this is just to get to the nitty gritty of what's truly going on with you and we will take it from there. by the way, the most detrimental assumption i see is that an AP needs to help their partner be safe. this is not true. we are not receptive or reliant on external things from other individuals for our internal safety and endeavors to keep us safe feel very different to us than intended. Largely because they are based on misunderstandings and fear based perceptions and cannot come close to what we actually need or desire. i see AP miss the mark over and over again with fear based intentions and don't have time to address it all. back to the exercise. six sentences to express your whole truth. Go. ππ So here is the thing Juniper...it may be a lightbulb moment......APs fear abandonment....abandonment fears trigger a lack of safety. We don't offer safety to our partners out of some misguided thought that we can protect our partner...we try to offer safety because that is what we as APs need. We all tend to give what we most want...the issue is that we also don't 1. Consider that we are doing this and thus speak clearly to that need and 2. Because we give what we want to get and vice versa...we create a vast hole where neither person is getting what he/she truly needs since so much is unspoken but reacted upon. We judge what our partner gives us through the lens of our own brokenness...not from the perspective of curiosity. I often said I wanted a handbook for B...not so I could take advantage of what I learned (as I suspect was his fear) but so that I would be able to see things from his perspective correctly and not just through my own AP lens. It is very hard to get to know someone who has been overwhelmed, not accepted and expected to be a certain way from a caregiver who only thought of him/herself. So many barriers to truly getting to know that person, so much suspicion about motives....and all I wanted to do was be the best partner I could be....but I had no map to follow and that stunk. i'm not arguing that, and it's understandable but i don't excuse it in current understanding. when you know better you do better and how will you know if you don't hear it from the source? i'm not going to refrain from speaking here because someone might feel defensive. i'm not defensive. i'm here supporting an AP with my whole heart. we don't have to continually defend dysfunction and we don't have to let it be the elephant in the room. and frankly it doesn't really matter to me where it comes from, there isn't fault in it. i'm not here flogging anyone or myself. i'm just saying what i have to say and there it is. friendly and honest and without any emotion. the AP dynamic doesn't affect me at all because i am not involved with any. I don't have anything to be upset about, i'm just saying what i observe.
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 19, 2018 15:23:04 GMT
i agree with @mary . also, most AP posters are making assumptions based on their own dysfunction. they don't believe what the DA partner is saying, even if it's point blank. they don't think the DA is being authentic. Why? partly because they are not being authentic and they are projecting. they are not honest and do not trust either. change has to start somewhere and it can only begin in the self. it's a risk but people are obliterating hope by hiding behind false notions. and they get a TON of support for that from other AP's. let's stop shutting down the honest DA perspective lol. Disemploy the Hall Monitor here who corrects too much logic of plain spoken perspective. π¬π But you also have to remember juniper that many APs had DA parents....so is speaking the truth from a DA perspective going to simply trigger them back into old patterns of either blaming the other person or SHAME...which is truly at the root of much of an APs posturing. Plain spoken from my mom when I was 5 years old...you embarrass me...what is wrong with you. That was REALLY effective for me (sarcasm).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 15:29:07 GMT
i agree with @mary . also, most AP posters are making assumptions based on their own dysfunction. they don't believe what the DA partner is saying, even if it's point blank. they don't think the DA is being authentic. Why? partly because they are not being authentic and they are projecting. they are not honest and do not trust either. change has to start somewhere and it can only begin in the self. it's a risk but people are obliterating hope by hiding behind false notions. and they get a TON of support for that from other AP's. let's stop shutting down the honest DA perspective lol. Disemploy the Hall Monitor here who corrects too much logic of plain spoken perspective. π¬π But you also have to remember juniper that many APs had DA parents....so is speaking the truth from a DA perspective going to simply trigger them back into old patterns of either blaming the other person or SHAME...which is truly at the root of much of an APs posturing. Plain spoken from my mom when I was 5 years old...you embarrass me...what is wrong with you. That was REALLY effective for me (sarcasm). your triggers aren't my issue though. if you respond that way you stay stuck. i am here to be myself. i am happy to go also but the OP is responding differently. if you need to address your triggers that's a good thing, but i don't really feel the need to silence my helpful advice because it might hurt your feelings. i don't intend harm and if it's taken, you have to protect yourself. i'm not your mom and my dynamic with you is present tense. do you speak out to protect my feelings when someone comes here absolutely bashing DA? i have no expectation for you to. people say what they have to say and we participate as adults.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 15:30:47 GMT
PS i had AP parent.
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