flic
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Post by flic on Jun 15, 2018 11:58:25 GMT
I was going to add flic that I think for so many decades, I was unaware (aka I did not care about) of my body or the signals it was providing and I think perhaps that was anther from of "self rejection" tha Jeb and others mention as a key aspect of being AP. I amcurious if going though SE has also changed the way you approach eating? I have recently discovered that I would eat to quell feelings of anxiety when my stomache was actually content and not hungry. Just an interesting discovery I wanted to share. I think you're right that being unaware of the body is part of self rejection. It hadn't occurred to me how little attention i pay to my body's signals until I started learning about attachment theory - and now im aware of how anxious i was in what seemed like a very good relationship, as well as how much i was often able to numb myself in situations previously that should have elicited a response. Doing SE has made me realise why yoga changed my life when i started it 6 years ago - and why it was the only thing that until then had ever calmed me properly. Not sure about the appetite thing - if anything it's restored my eating to normal. But I can't help but think that tapping into your body more will allow you to discern between hunger and anxiety. One thing I have noticed from doing SE is I notice my body 'twitching' a lot more after I've become anxious and then focused on what I'm experiencing in the body, and maybe doing a little self soothing. Apparently this is normal - it is evidence of 'energy release as self-regulating mechanisms restore balance to the autonomic nervous system'. It's the same experience for an animal who, when it has a traumatic experience (for example a zebra nearly caught by a cheetah) - will freeze for a period of time, and then release the energy and 'wake up' slowly, tremoring, twitching etc. Quite amazing to experience in my own body, and know that something must be working!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 12:04:03 GMT
maybe avoidants don't reject the self the same way because circumstances sent us the message that if we did, we would die. or at least that's the message we interpreted on a primal level? the sharing about how anxious are detached from the body is fascinating to me, just another way we are so different! i can't imagine it. flic and tnr9 thanks for your contributions!
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 12:07:23 GMT
From personal experience yes - but absence of pain often translates to absence of other emotions including joy and wonder. I do sometimes think that APs bring emotional pain upon themselves by clinging to painful relationships. Pain in life is inevitable but suffering is a choice - can't remember who said that but wise words..... I wanted to respond to this..but I wanted to wait until I could do so from an adult, reflective perspective. I am not going to be a poster child for APs, but for me...that "suffering" that you say is optional and self inflected...I agree that to someone from the outside looking in, that is exactly what it looks like...but to me, to my own process...it does not "feel" like a choice...it feels no more like a choice then when I experienced the pain of rejection from my mom when I was very, very young. When I am in a place which looks like "suffering" to others, oftentimes I realize that I was simply in a repressed state...a very young state where there are not a lot of "options" and the options that were available (fantasizing, obssessing, checking, questioning, ruminating, hyper focusing, crying etc etc) all look like self inflicted suffering to someone who has a lot more adult options at his/her disposal. This is a very important step for me, believe it or not. Too often, I have agreed with others and ended up very angry with myself over my actions that seem so...crazy, detrimental, harmful..but really, when I see them how they are..they are simply coping skills of a very young girl. Like me/dislike me...this is where I am...this is my truth. This is where I get to be vunerable. Now, I am working on this...more so by being aware that it happened and by giving myself grace and permission to be exactly who I am. It is a process but I believe that awareness is half the battle. tnr9 - Thank-you for this thoughtful post. I can't even tell you how much it resonates with me. Good luck with your healing. It certainly is a journey.
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 15, 2018 12:17:00 GMT
I was going to add flic that I think for so many decades, I was unaware (aka I did not care about) of my body or the signals it was providing and I think perhaps that was anther from of "self rejection" tha Jeb and others mention as a key aspect of being AP. I amcurious if going though SE has also changed the way you approach eating? I have recently discovered that I would eat to quell feelings of anxiety when my stomache was actually content and not hungry. Just an interesting discovery I wanted to share. I think you're right that being unaware of the body is part of self rejection. It hadn't occurred to me how little attention i pay to my body's signals until I started learning about attachment theory - and now im aware of how anxious i was in what seemed like a very good relationship, as well as how much i was often able to numb myself in situations previously that should have elicited a response. Doing SE has made me realise why yoga changed my life when i started it 6 years ago - and why it was the only thing that until then had ever calmed me properly. Not sure about the appetite thing - if anything it's restored my eating to normal. But I can't help but think that tapping into your body more will allow you to discern between hunger and anxiety. One thing I have noticed from doing SE is I notice my body 'twitching' a lot more after I've become anxious and then focused on what I'm experiencing in the body, and maybe doing a little self soothing. Apparently this is normal - it is evidence of 'energy release as self-regulating mechanisms restore balance to the autonomic nervous system'. It's the same experience for an animal who, when it has a traumatic experience (for example a zebra nearly caught by a cheetah) - will freeze for a period of time, and then release the energy and 'wake up' slowly, tremoring, twitching etc. Quite amazing to experience in my own body, and know that something must be working! Wow..that is a pretty incredible discovery flic. I still "hold" so much tension in my shoulders....and in my stomache....I never expected my stomache to be so "vocal" about pain. I have noticed that I have not been as sick with colds etc since I have really been working on me. 🙂 I also love yoga for the emphasis on posture and really aligning the body.
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Post by ocarina on Jun 15, 2018 12:17:10 GMT
This may not be universal amongst avoidants but I don't tend to recognise specific emotions in my head - rarely feel anxious, stressed, angry etc but I notice that when I am in a situation that would be deemed stressful, by the end of the day my stomach is bloated, head ache etc as though my somatic self is affected but there's a communication in interpretation somewhere along the line - bizarre!
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 12:22:39 GMT
Reflecting on this a little more - perhaps when suffering does become a choice, we begin to experience real freedom. Not freedom from painful experience but freedom of choice as to whether to cling to the pain/ refuse to experience the pain - or sit with the pain and let it run its course in order to live outside of the shackles of our past. YES! This is my goal. It's exactly what I'm working on, and as an AP I find I find it SO hard to tell the difference between ruminating and sitting with pain. I quit a 21 year long drug addiction 3 years ago, so I'm no longer numbing, and I only just realized a few months ago that the pain of my AP responses is what I'd been numbing all those years. Now I'm working hard to develop responses that allows processing and healing, and the pain coming up makes getting sober seem like a breeze!
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 12:23:54 GMT
This may not be universal amongst avoidants but I don't tend to recognise specific emotions in my head - rarely feel anxious, stressed, angry etc but I notice that when I am in a situation that would be deemed stressful, by the end of the day my stomach is bloated, head ache etc as though my somatic self is affected but there's a communication in interpretation somewhere along the line - bizarre! That makes perfect sense. If emotions are being suppressed, they're still happening, so it's not surprising they'd show up in the body.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 12:29:44 GMT
This may not be universal amongst avoidants but I don't tend to recognise specific emotions in my head - rarely feel anxious, stressed, angry etc but I notice that when I am in a situation that would be deemed stressful, by the end of the day my stomach is bloated, head ache etc as though my somatic self is affected but there's a communication in interpretation somewhere along the line - bizarre! in previous times for me, yes. i had a lot of inflammation in my body as well, very painful joints, when i was in very bad situations. and a persistent hard ache in my sacrum when i would be under attack. so many body manifestations of emotions i could NOT afford to acknowledge , i think because i was truly trapped and i had to just survive. all the feelings would have driven me to despair. so i shouldered it all literally until i could get help.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 12:33:30 GMT
Reflecting on this a little more - perhaps when suffering does become a choice, we begin to experience real freedom. Not freedom from painful experience but freedom of choice as to whether to cling to the pain/ refuse to experience the pain - or sit with the pain and let it run its course in order to live outside of the shackles of our past. YES! This is my goal. It's exactly what I'm working on, and as an AP I find I find it SO hard to tell the difference between ruminating and sitting with pain. I quit a 21 year long drug addiction 3 years ago, so I'm no longer numbing, and I only just realized a few months ago that the pain of my AP responses is what I'd been numbing all those years. Now I'm working hard to develop responses that allows processing and healing, and the pain coming up makes getting sober seem like a breeze! yes! i also believe suffering ultimately becomes a choice. i strongly believe that how one addresses their pain either prolongs and deepens it, or liberates one from it. i see this again and again in those who have transcended pain, including myself. i have been able to identify coping mechanisms that are maladaptive, and discard them in the interest of loving myself well, and taking good care of myself.
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 12:34:14 GMT
Reflecting on this a little more - perhaps when suffering does become a choice, we begin to experience real freedom. Not freedom from painful experience but freedom of choice as to whether to cling to the pain/ refuse to experience the pain - or sit with the pain and let it run its course in order to live outside of the shackles of our past. I think this is true..but to get there..at least for me...it is being aware of when it does not feel like a choice and to have great compassion for that little girl for whom choice seemed so elusive. Also...I loved your post Ocarina..it really allowed me to consider the..is it truly a choice question and that in itself was freeing.😀 Honestly..as I wrote my response, it was with this amazing acceptance of myself and where I am....something that I did not receive growing up. Speaking my truth and being ok with it is a huge victory. tnr9 - Your words give me some hope. I'm working on self compassion, I feel it sometimes and sometimes it feels like an empty gesture, like I try to direct it inward but I just can't feel it. Thank-you for sharing, and congratulations on your progress. I'm rooting for you big time!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 12:40:20 GMT
and notalone, it sounds like you are doing exactly what you need to do. that deep pain, as it comes up, is like a purging. let it be, when you feel it. listen to it, it finds some relief in your care, and it will find some rest. you can literally calm it just by allowing it to be there in full force, it just needs to be acknowledged. just like us. our pain is like us, it needs to be heard and understood. this is all so good.
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 15, 2018 12:45:19 GMT
YES! This is my goal. It's exactly what I'm working on, and as an AP I find I find it SO hard to tell the difference between ruminating and sitting with pain. I quit a 21 year long drug addiction 3 years ago, so I'm no longer numbing, and I only just realized a few months ago that the pain of my AP responses is what I'd been numbing all those years. Now I'm working hard to develop responses that allows processing and healing, and the pain coming up makes getting sober seem like a breeze! yes! i also believe suffering ultimately becomes a choice. i strongly believe that how one addresses their pain either prolongs and deepens it, or liberates one from it. i see this again and again in those who have transcended pain, including myself. i have been able to identify coping mechanisms that are maladaptive, and discard them in the interest of loving myself well, and taking good care of myself. That is so interesting..because what is working for me is the exact opposite...embracing the girl's coping mechanism, as bizarre as they may seem to others, has really quelled her fears. It is as if the true acknowledgement and acceptance of them has opened me up to other options that serve me better. But I did not discard the coping skills of that little girl..and they do still surface. Just really fascinating how unique we all are. I am so glad to read Juniper that you found what works best for you...you really do sound so rooted in who you are and it truly inspires me.❤️
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 15, 2018 12:56:09 GMT
Reflecting on this a little more - perhaps when suffering does become a choice, we begin to experience real freedom. Not freedom from painful experience but freedom of choice as to whether to cling to the pain/ refuse to experience the pain - or sit with the pain and let it run its course in order to live outside of the shackles of our past. YES! This is my goal. It's exactly what I'm working on, and as an AP I find I find it SO hard to tell the difference between ruminating and sitting with pain. I quit a 21 year long drug addiction 3 years ago, so I'm no longer numbing, and I only just realized a few months ago that the pain of my AP responses is what I'd been numbing all those years. Now I'm working hard to develop responses that allows processing and healing, and the pain coming up makes getting sober seem like a breeze! Wow..congratulations on your 3 year sobriety from drugs. I have such great respect for individuals who have found a way out from addiction. Grateful to have your voice present on these forums.❤️
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Post by ocarina on Jun 15, 2018 13:06:55 GMT
yes! i also believe suffering ultimately becomes a choice. i strongly believe that how one addresses their pain either prolongs and deepens it, or liberates one from it. i see this again and again in those who have transcended pain, including myself. i have been able to identify coping mechanisms that are maladaptive, and discard them in the interest of loving myself well, and taking good care of myself. That is so interesting..because what is working for me is the exact opposite...embracing the girl's coping mechanism, as bizarre as they may seem to others, has really quelled her fears. It is as if the true acknowledgement and acceptance of them has opened me up to other options that serve me better. But I did not discard the coping skills of that little girl..and they do still surface. Just really fascinating how unique we all are. I am so glad to read Juniper that you found what works best for you...you really do sound so rooted in who you are and it truly inspires me.❤️ I wonder if these two approaches are actually inherently the same - there can be no change in any direction unless the present state of being wherever and whatever that might be is accepted. Coping mechanisms need to be embraced and honored in exactly the same way as everything else - that's the only way to break free of them surely? So what you're doing tnr9 by accepting the reality of where you are now and treating it with kindness and compassion is exactly what Juniper is suggesting - not dwelling and ruminating within the pain, but being fully and wholeheartedly accepting of it and allowing it to be, recognising why these behaviours and ways of thinking have evolved and then treating their presence with kindness Do you know the Rumi poem? - one of my favourites: The Guest House by Rumi This being human is a guest house. Every morning a new arrival. A joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness comes as an unexpected visitor. Welcome and entertain them all! Even if they're a crowd of sorrows, who violently sweep your house empty of its furniture, still, treat each guest honourably. He may be clearing you out for some new delight. The dark thought, the shame, the malice, meet them at the door laughing, and invite them in. Be grateful for whoever comes, because each has been sent as a guide from beyond.
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 13:12:55 GMT
I've only posted your conclusion here notalone but I think all the points you make are excellent. I completely agree that the responses of APs are not a choice, and changing the responses to triggers is the only way to lessen the pain, and therefore the suffering. I don't think these responses can change just by people telling an AP to work on themselves (though awareness is obviously the first step). Maybe it's because that often leads to APs trying to intellectualise why they do what they do. I believe that is actually one of the main reasons APs ruminate so much - they're trying to intellectualise something that can't be solved by thinking. For unaware DAs i imagine it's the opposite - they don't ruminate, but instead trap the pain before it becomes too conscious. Both feel pain, both are unhealthy ways of releasing it (or not). Like you, i believe getting to the root of the trauma and repairing it is the only real way to prevent suffering (or at least decrease it). I'm currently undertaking Somatic Experiencing therapy which uses a bottom up (body before cognition) approach and it's incredible what insights come up simply by recognising the bodily responses to perceived threats. The premise here is that the body is the first to react to the situation that triggers trauma, and the mind is then interpreting this response and building a story from it, then the emotional release occurs. So recognising the bodily responses allows us to intercept them before the mind builds that story. It happens in a split second though, which is why therapy is usually needed to help slow down and re-wire the response What it has helped me conclude is that i can't control the responses (body) at the moment, and probably won't be able to for a while. Like notalone said, working on changing attachment style is hard work and it brings up a lot of emotion and pain. However, I personally think there's another approach that can help deal with the mind (top down) until one has properly worked on the trauma. Avoiding triggers and being really honest about what those triggers are. This is where i DO think APs choose to suffer. When we check our exes social media, when we spend hours ruminating over what certain texts mean or don't mean, when we calculate how long since they've been online and build a story about why, when we talk to our exes to get that hit of dopamine and then feel awful later and replay the conversation in our minds. These ARE choices that are causing suffering because they aren't being made from the place of the trauma (though I acknowledge they are being made by the part of us that experienced the trauma), they are being decided upon and causing a reaction in the body and then the mind. The trauma itself can't make you interact with someone or check their social media. I used to believe that the best time to work on one's triggers is when we are triggered, but I'm revising my position on this. Unless you are prepared to simply accept what is (which is also a cognitive choice and can be cultivated through mindfulness, yoga etc) then you are putting yourself in situations where the trauma will be re-lived and you will build a story from it and then you will suffer. Buddhists believe that all suffering occurs in the mind. I'm not saying that acknowledging how triggers make us feel can't help us become more aware of ourselves, but if you're not also working on the trauma itself (and NOT by just analysing it), I'm not sure putting oneself in triggering situations will do anything but increase suffering. Just an idea I've been thinking about - feel free to rip it to shreds this is awesome This response is awesome. Thank-you for writing it and sharing your process. I'm trying very hard to avoid triggers. Personally, I don't think being honest with myself has been my block, it's been awareness. I've always had 2 voices in my head, telling me to take opposite actions. Right now I'm learning that one is a traumatized child, and although she means well (she's trying to make sure I survive), what she wants and what is healthy for me are not the same. Because of this ambivalence, it's been so hard to know what I want and need, and to trust myself. With better awareness I hope to be able to make better choices. I just ended something with a DA and I feel terror, and now I know it's that little kid who's afraid letting go = death. But I keep telling myself, as kindly and compassionately as I can "I know, it hurts. And it's OK. You're OK.". I'm also working on the top down stuff, as in learning to identify sensations in my body related to emotions. It's super hard for me, 90% of the time I feel nothing in my body.
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