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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 13:31:36 GMT
For the APs here that cannot stop the rumination loop, there is a good reason why most posters understand that it is actually neurally and psychologically harmful to assist someone to remain in the stuck rumination cycle, and generally, instinctively prefer to stay away. Staying in rumination means going ever deeper into a negative cycle, the proverbial digging deeper into the depressive hole, yet it feels familiar because it resonates with past memories and the neural networks connected to those memories, to the point where it becomes an integrated identity, albeit a problematic one. The mind loves the familiar and rejects the unfamiliar, so anyone who is fiercely protective of self or own boundaries could see advice towards change to reach a better, more secure place as criticism, threats or rejection of self. I think most of us have referred to this framework in varying forms. It gets seriously out of hand when one fork is blocked, the ruminating person seeks other, multiple forks to resonate and amplify the rumination.  Thus the issues that cause the relationship problems in one's life do not get resolved, and in fact will worsen with rumination, since rumination deepens and reinforce these very issues, leading to worse outcome in current and future relationships, leading to more woe, in a self-reinforcing feedback loop, etc. We all have our blind spot. Interacting with a forum of supportive anonymous strangers serves a great purpose - we receive quite objective feedback. Of course there will be outliers, but in general, a rather good consensus can reflect reality without the subjective "noise" of one's circle in real life. The best help when one is stuck should come from a therapist, as the fuller picture can be provided to a specialist who is trained in helping with specific issues. We are all amateurs, all of us with our issues and struggling to reach a better place ourselves, so our own insight are very much limited. However, as long as we learn, change and grow, we are on a good trajectory, whether its pace be faster or slower. It is when we choose not to break out of the negative cycle, even as we become aware of our blindspot, that it will be a never ending, ever deepening cycle. This gets reinforced as others' refusal to assist in rumination, seeing its harmful effects, is interpreted as rejection of self, and it triggers more anxiety and increased need for support of the state of rumination, which is conflated with self, and so on. It isn't so much as DA detaching to lessen pain - it is the self-preservation instinct of everyone of all attachments styles swimming against the tide, knowing that if one doesn't move forward-upwards, there is no staying still, and one goes backwards-downwards. It's a hard truth for those who prefer to remain in rumination, but even if this doesn't help some, it might be useful for others who come here with the same questions seeking answers. www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/depression-management-techniques/201604/rumination-problem-in-anxiety-and-depression
Curious -
I don't think anyone "prefers" to stay in rumination. I think some don't know how to stop it, or struggle with the process of trying to stop it. It can be hurtful when people assume rumination is a choice, because although it might be a subconscious choice, no one consciously chooses suffering.
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 15, 2018 13:36:05 GMT
YES! This is my goal. It's exactly what I'm working on, and as an AP I find I find it SO hard to tell the difference between ruminating and sitting with pain. I quit a 21 year long drug addiction 3 years ago, so I'm no longer numbing, and I only just realized a few months ago that the pain of my AP responses is what I'd been numbing all those years. Now I'm working hard to develop responses that allows processing and healing, and the pain coming up makes getting sober seem like a breeze! yes! i also believe suffering ultimately becomes a choice. i have been able to identify coping mechanisms that are maladaptive, and discard them in the interest of loving myself well, and taking good care of myself. Juniper..I want to thank you for the above (yes, I acknowledge that I altered it)...because i realized that part of what is happening within me is an emeshment issue. Case in point, I read the above...which is clearly about you and not about me at all...but I read it as if it was a statement about me (and started to react, I sensed feelings of sadness and anger as if it was about me). And I acknowledge that that has been a great source of emotional pain...not having good "boundaries" of where you end and where I begin. It was really eye opening to feel my little girl take that so personally. And what seemed to work is 1. Acknowledge that the above is about you and honor that it is about you and 2. Then differentiate myself, in a loving, gentle caring manner that honors you and my little girl..I think that is the beginning of boundary forming for me. 🙂 I think this awareness is going to continue to serve me well as I separate and define myself via my body and emotions. So thank you for that post even though it was not meant for or about me. ❤️ |
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 13:57:37 GMT
Juniper - Yes, I'm very aware of my feelings. I hardly notice changes in my body. Even when my feelings are intense, and my therapist asks me what I feel in my body, I usually answer that I really don't know. I feel very cut off from my body. this is so fascinating to me, and so opposite of what i understand avoidants to experience. so, i want to encourage you. i have been able to heal to the point of awarensss of the whole experince if emotions; and to be able to work with them to really understand and transform them. Good for you for daring to delve into it all, the rewards are so rich. ❤️ I agree, it's really interesting that AP and DA have such opposite experiences both with emotions and in the body. It makes sense, but it's fascinating. (Just to make sure I was clear, I identify as AP) Thanks so much for your encouragement Juniper. I'm only a few months into working on this, and it's the hardest thing I've ever done. I felt I had no choice though. The pain got so bad that I ended up in the emergency department with almost no hope. I wanted to die but my best friend and my mom begged me to reach out. After 27 years of this pattern, it's hard to imagine things getting better, but I'm trying to change that thinking and working on this one day at a time. |
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 14:05:03 GMT
I felt the same actually. It's a really hard thing to do, tap into the responses of the body, when you're not used to doing it. I think as humans generally we have become so rationalising, we often forget about the body and its role going back to primitive times. But it's so great that you are trying, I hope you feel you are getting benefit from it. Good luck on your journey - it sounds like you're taking in so much learning! My therapist suggested reading Waking the Tiger and The Body Keeps the Score, if you fancy some more reading  Thanks so much flic. I'm certainly learning. I've heard great things about The Body Keeps the Score. Maybe that should be my next read |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 14:10:49 GMT
notalone, i want to encourage you to have faith in the process. those of us who have found what we were looking for, relief , are here to encourage you and help you see that healing is possible. you are doing this right. Very proud of you, i know the struggle. big hugs!
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 14:11:11 GMT
so i have shared from where i am now, as an aware dismissive, and upon reading and reflection i can add more to explain a little bit of what it was like before i was aware. i feel that my ability to process pain and emotions now is a refinement and fine tuning, an evolution, of how i processed before. maybe the best way to illustrate it is to give an example. my insecure attachment style led me to choose partners who were painful and detrimental to me. as can be expected, possibly, my partners were on the other end of the spectrum, AP. some with comirbid vulnerable narcissism. protest behaviors were entacted against me to an extreme degree and were emotionally, psychologically, sexually, physically abusive. i experienced intense pain, anger, (i can't recall much fear, more stock) disgust, etc- very very intense visceral feelings that i was unable to delve into other than to react to them to protect myself. So, i did identify danger, and the associated feelings in my body. i felt very angry and was able to make a coping plan to address the feelings. even back then i was able to determine, that the treatment of me was harming me and i didn't deserve it, and i made efforts to make logistical choices around it in order to try to move myself to safety. this happened on a more primal, survival level, but i can say that even though i could not identify the nuances of the experiences, and the feelings, they were intense and required my action. i did the best i could to take care of them. my growth and awareness over time has enabled me to come to a deep understanding of all the initial causes in my childhood, my learned coping, the more vulnerable feelings, the experience of more positive feelings like contentment, peace, joy, connection, etc... and ultimately all this work has resulted in me being able to recognize feelings as cues to pay attention to in order to direct my path toward what is good and beneficial and away from what is truly detrimental. before awareness, i was unable to divert myself away from harm and was left just trying to cope with it once i was immersed. now, my life is full of beneficial and healing elements rather than harmful and destructive elements and that is a result of knowing how to listen to and work with my feelings. it began in the body for me. so, in short- the pain was always there, in a more instinctive sense. coping with it has evolved, but it always did demand some kind of coping and action. there were a lot of periods of numbness and dissociation for me but i attribute that to serious CNS responses to grave trauma , PTSD, rather than to just dismissive attachment. i cannot speak for any other avoidant but this has been true for me. Wow Juniper. Your progress is amazing! Really inspiring. |
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 14:19:13 GMT
I wonder if the type of trauma plays a role in whether we feel things in the body first whether we feel them via our emotions. Example..if someone experienced physical trauma...would that cause a hypersentivity of the body whereas if someone experienced emotional trauma..would that cause hypersensitivity of the emotions. Very interesting question. I'd guess it's more about each persons biology than type of trauma, but it's worth researching for sure!
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 14:25:43 GMT
uh, you quoted me and replied with questions about how to interpret your exDA's behavior. i'm happy to disagree about all of it, do what you want and maybe just don't quote me with questions about mindreading your ex, i'd love that. I think it will be very helpful if you can simply refrain from answering or say "I'm sorry I can't answer your question."
Feel free to do this at any time, as I have done and will do. Certainly I haven't answered many posts addressed to mine, and have answered posts not addressed to me.
I assure you under no circumstances will I bother or PM you if that were the case. That isn't my style.
It isn't helpful to refer repeatedly to "curious and her ruminations about her exDA", as by definition, rumination = repetitively going over a thought or a problem without completion, and I asked only on this one occasion if Overworking = DA coping mechanism for distress, in a thread titled Avoidant and Pain Lessening. Meanwhile, the posts about exboyfriend sighting outside, at social events, on social media, etc. are repetitive and I'm not sure to what completion.
I was told 4 times before by him that he has been working 60-70 hours a week, and it is only when he told me for the 5th time recently that I even posted a question, as I'm worried. I'd hardly call that rumination.
It used to be that a diversity of feedback, exchange and debate could be expected from different members, and a pattern/consensus can emerge. It helps to clarify thoughts and action to take upon reflection of group wisdom, and not to be perceived as targeted at anyone in particular, and not for extrapolation into tens of threads and posts, not for any particular view to dominate, and this gets catalogued as a resource for any one in future who wants the same query answered. That I believe served the interest of all members.
Curious - I've read that over working is one thing avoidants often do - in my understanding, as a way of avoiding issues/coping. I hope that helps. |
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 14:58:38 GMT
maybe avoidants don't reject the self the same way because circumstances sent us the message that if we did, we would die. or at least that's the message we interpreted on a primal level? the sharing about how anxious are detached from the body is fascinating to me, just another way we are so different! i can't imagine it. flic and tnr9 thanks for your contributions! juniper - From what I've read lack of consistent and effective nurturing triggers in some babies a fear that they might die - this is the trauma - it's just AP & DA develop opposite responses. AP & DA traits are both a ways of coping with terrible pain, but avoidants numb that pain by deactivating their attachment systems, while the Anxious people scream like hell to try to get their needs met. |
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 15:03:28 GMT
I think you're right that being unaware of the body is part of self rejection. It hadn't occurred to me how little attention i pay to my body's signals until I started learning about attachment theory - and now im aware of how anxious i was in what seemed like a very good relationship, as well as how much i was often able to numb myself in situations previously that should have elicited a response. Doing SE has made me realise why yoga changed my life when i started it 6 years ago - and why it was the only thing that until then had ever calmed me properly. Not sure about the appetite thing - if anything it's restored my eating to normal. But I can't help but think that tapping into your body more will allow you to discern between hunger and anxiety. One thing I have noticed from doing SE is I notice my body 'twitching' a lot more after I've become anxious and then focused on what I'm experiencing in the body, and maybe doing a little self soothing. Apparently this is normal - it is evidence of 'energy release as self-regulating mechanisms restore balance to the autonomic nervous system'. It's the same experience for an animal who, when it has a traumatic experience (for example a zebra nearly caught by a cheetah) - will freeze for a period of time, and then release the energy and 'wake up' slowly, tremoring, twitching etc. Quite amazing to experience in my own body, and know that something must be working! Wow..that is a pretty incredible discovery flic. I still "hold" so much tension in my shoulders....and in my stomache....I never expected my stomache to be so "vocal" about pain. I have noticed that I have not been as sick with colds etc since I have really been working on me. 🙂 I also love yoga for the emphasis on posture and really aligning the body. I have also found yoga to be helpful. I've been practicing fir about 6-7 years. Love it! |
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 15:07:45 GMT
and notalone , it sounds like you are doing exactly what you need to do. that deep pain, as it comes up, is like a purging. let it be, when you feel it. listen to it, it finds some relief in your care, and it will find some rest. you can literally calm it just by allowing it to be there in full force, it just needs to be acknowledged. just like us. our pain is like us, it needs to be heard and understood. this is all so good. Thank-you for the encouragement. I really appreciate it. |
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 15:13:57 GMT
YES! This is my goal. It's exactly what I'm working on, and as an AP I find I find it SO hard to tell the difference between ruminating and sitting with pain. I quit a 21 year long drug addiction 3 years ago, so I'm no longer numbing, and I only just realized a few months ago that the pain of my AP responses is what I'd been numbing all those years. Now I'm working hard to develop responses that allows processing and healing, and the pain coming up makes getting sober seem like a breeze! Wow..congratulations on your 3 year sobriety from drugs. I have such great respect for individuals who have found a way out from addiction. Grateful to have your voice present on these forums.❤️ Thanks so much. This life is certainly a journey. I'm really grateful I found this forum, and for your contributions as well. |
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 15:18:12 GMT
I wonder if these two approaches are actually inherently the same - there can be no change in any direction unless the present state of being wherever and whatever that might be is accepted. Coping mechanisms need to be embraced and honored in exactly the same way as everything else - that's the only way to break free of them surely? So what you're doing tnr9 by accepting the reality of where you are now and treating it with kindness and compassion is exactly what Juniper is suggesting - not dwelling and ruminating within the pain, but being fully and wholeheartedly accepting of it and allowing it to be, recognising why these behaviours and ways of thinking have evolved and then treating their presence with kindness Do you know the Rumi poem? - one of my favourites: The Guest House by Rumi This being human is a guest house. Every morning a new arrival. A joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness comes as an unexpected visitor. Welcome and entertain them all! Even if they're a crowd of sorrows, who violently sweep your house empty of its furniture, still, treat each guest honourably. He may be clearing you out for some new delight. The dark thought, the shame, the malice, meet them at the door laughing, and invite them in. Be grateful for whoever comes, because each has been sent as a guide from beyond. ocarina - Awesome insight. Wonderful poem. Thank-you for sharing. |
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 15:23:18 GMT
yes! i also believe suffering ultimately becomes a choice. i have been able to identify coping mechanisms that are maladaptive, and discard them in the interest of loving myself well, and taking good care of myself. Juniper..I want to thank you for the above (yes, I acknowledge that I altered it)...because i realized that part of what is happening within me is an emeshment issue. Case in point, I read the above...which is clearly about you and not about me at all...but I read it as if it was a statement about me (and started to react, I sensed feelings of sadness and anger as if it was about me). And I acknowledge that that has been a great source of emotional pain...not having good "boundaries" of where you end and where I begin. It was really eye opening to feel my little girl take that so personally. And what seemed to work is 1. Acknowledge that the above is about you and honor that it is about you and 2. Then differentiate myself, in a loving, gentle caring manner that honors you and my little girl..I think that is the beginning of boundary forming for me. 🙂 I think this awareness is going to continue to serve me well as I separate and define myself via my body and emotions. So thank you for that post even though it was not meant for or about me. ❤️ Oh man, this is chocking me up. Nice catch tnr9, seriously inspiring awareness. Thanks for being so open. |
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Post by notalone on Jun 15, 2018 15:29:02 GMT
notalone , i want to encourage you to have faith in the process. those of us who have found what we were looking for, relief , are here to encourage you and help you see that healing is possible. you are doing this right. Very proud of you, i know the struggle. big hugs! OK, I'm just going to come out with it and tell you I have tears streaming down my face reading this. It's so emotional on so many levels, the pain, the hint of hope, all of it... Thank-you so much. BIG HUGS AND LOVE! |
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